Paths of Civilization

[DakkaMania]

If anyone cares, I have found a historical use of the Terrify action against the Egyptians. One that may go against our values to some degree, but would be plausible for a Heroic Mystic to think of.

Behold!

The Persians invaded in 525 BCE and defeated the Egyptian garrison at Pelusium but this had nothing to do with superior military might. The Persian general Cambyses II knew of the great veneration the Egyptians had for animals in general and cats in particular. He ordered his men to round up as many animals as possible and drive them before the army. Further, he had his soldiers paint the image of the goddess Bastet, among the most popular of all Egyptian deities, on their shields. He then marched on the city with the animals in front of him declaring that he would hurl cats over the walls if he did not receive an immediate surrender. The Egyptians, fearing for the safety of the animals (and also their own if they should offend Bastet), lay down their arms and surrendered. Afterwards, Cambyses II is said to have thrown cats from a sack into the faces of the Egyptians in contempt.

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Source:
Ancient Egyptian Warfare

 

[veekie]

Hmm, cool, though Shrine level 2 should still come right after Arsenal, theres some wriggle room.

 

[Hangwind]

Integrating the Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorders?

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I can never remember their actual name.

 

[Chronic]

can be only one.

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Well that is annoying. I hope that mechanic goes away later on as the ages advance, i don't want to have to fight every great power that shoes up.

Maybe we should make an effort to cultivate a buffer zone of allied, but non-vassalised nations when we don't want to expand anymore, to prevent contact with other KotHs.

 

[veekie]

I can never remember their actual name.

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They are not a valid target for integration anyways.

Well that is annoying. I hope that mechanic goes away later on as the ages advance, i don't want to have to fight every great power that shoes up.

Maybe we should make an effort to cultivate a buffer zone of allied, but non-vassalised nations when we don't want to expand anymore, to prevent contact with other KotHs.

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If they aren't contesting land we'd be fine submitting, but really it's inevitable. The end solution is probably big great power blobs separated by natural barriers.

 

[DakkaMania]

If they aren't contesting land we'd be fine submitting, but really it's inevitable. The end solution is probably big great power blobs separated by natural barriers.

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Historically, it boiled down to several major powers with a lot of tiny ones in between. Rome and China, for example.

It's very hard to impossible for another major power to arise in the vicinity of another one as the great powers tend to eat up the prime real estate and only leave scrabs for anyone else.

Social development may play a role as well. Ancient China and Rome apparently knew about each other and had some respect for each others achievement, but due to distance, they only had limited contact.

 

[Painfulldarksoul]

The anexes cost stats and if it needs artisans, it would mean tech, which we are about to use up. AN said going into negative tech can lead to technology loss, as in our actual science knowledge. So shouldn't we take a support artisans, with the arsenal, because it makes narrative sense and prevents us from loosing technologies?

 

[Glassware]

The anexes cost stats and if it needs artisans, it would mean tech, which we are about to use up. AN said going into negative tech can lead to technology loss, as in our actual science knowledge. So shouldn't we take a support artisans, with the arsenal, because it makes narrative sense and prevents us from loosing technologies?

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Each annex costs 2 econ and 2 culture, which we have in relative abundance.

 

[tryrar]

The anexes cost stats and if it needs artisans, it would mean tech, which we are about to use up. AN said going into negative tech can lead to technology loss, as in our actual science knowledge. So shouldn't we take a support artisans, with the arsenal, because it makes narrative sense and prevents us from loosing technologies?

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Each annex requires 2 econ and culture, so no worries there. Though, now that I think on it support Artisans does come with an innovation chance, which would be boosted by our Mystic hero.

Blackbirded

 

[veekie]

We have a lot of stuff that generates Culture, and only one action that consumes it so yeah.

 

[veekie]

Each annex requires 2 econ and culture, so no worries there. Though, now that I think on it support Artisans does come with an innovation chance, which would be boosted by our Mystic hero.

Blackbirded

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It does, but I think we're better off pushing for the steel breakthrough first.
A LOT of things become possible once you realize how to make mild steel at all, particularly in mechanics.

Crossbows have a lot of places where stronger metal parts were instrumental in fact. The problem with using iron was that it tended to deform over time when strained, and wasn't very springy

 

[Susano]

Well that is annoying. I hope that mechanic goes away later on as the ages advance, i don't want to have to fight every great power that shoes up.

Maybe we should make an effort to cultivate a buffer zone of allied, but non-vassalised nations when we don't want to expand anymore, to prevent contact with other KotHs.

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Or we are just so much in the lead with prestige that nobody can contest us, so there is never a KotH battle

 

[DakkaMania]

It does, but I think we're better off pushing for the steel breakthrough first.
A LOT of things become possible once you realize how to make mild steel at all, particularly in mechanics.

Crossbows have a lot of places where stronger metal parts were instrumental in fact. The problem with using iron was that it tended to deform over time when strained, and wasn't very springy

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Yeah, but that is unlikely to be relevant for the current war.

 

[agumentic]

Historically, it boiled down to several major powers with a lot of tiny ones in between. Rome and China, for example.

It's very hard to impossible for another major power to arise in the vicinity of another one as the great powers tend to eat up the prime real estate and only leave scrabs for anyone else.

Social development may play a role as well. Ancient China and Rome apparently knew about each other and had some respect for each others achievement, but due to distance, they only had limited contact.

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No, Rome had Parthian Empire as much closer rival, and never succeeded in conquering them. I just think that later that status will change, allowing peaceful relationships without establishing who is better for sure, but still having the possibility of "Great Powers war".

 

[Painfulldarksoul]

It does, but I think we're better off pushing for the steel breakthrough first.
A LOT of things become possible once you realize how to make mild steel at all, particularly in mechanics.

Crossbows have a lot of places where stronger metal parts were instrumental in fact. The problem with using iron was that it tended to deform over time when strained, and wasn't very springy

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Wouldn't this still push in that direction though? Our mystic king, decides to support the armies, by giving them better equipment. Therefore he invites artisans and pays them good money, in his new armory, to make better metal. The artisans even get access to the palce library and the mystic kings expertise.

 

[Hangwind]

They are not a valid target for integration anyways.

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They're not? I thought that any of our vassals were legitimate targets?

 

[Candesce]

Or we are just so much in the lead with prestige that nobody can contest us,

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Uh, no. We'd need to be so much in the lead in military that no-one is willing to contest us, and we're not nomads.

Remember, the higher the prestige we've got the more can be stolen by whatever power defeats us.

 

[veekie]

Yeah, but that is unlikely to be relevant for the current war.

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Depends. With an Arsenal we should be able to outfit elites with steel equipment immediately(see the turn after Fey Mood for how fast we could have deployed iron starting from "figured it out from the ore", to "functional weapons" by the mid turn.), then propagated it outwards

Wouldn't this still push in that direction though? Our mystic king, decides to support the armies, by giving them better equipment. Therefore he invites artisans and pays them good money, in his new armory, to make better metal. The artisans even get access to the palce library and the mystic kings expertise.

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If you want steel, you need to actually STUDY the metal. We should already have accidental steel from case hardening or contamination, but nobody realizes what they're looking at.

The process of figuring it out is "why iron gets hard".
As the Spirit Talkers have learned, if you want to learn about farming, go and FARM, not study the stars in the hopes of unlocking agricultural innovations through studying the weather.
If you want better metal, study metal. If you want clockwork, then support artisans.

 

[veekie]

They're not? I thought that any of our vassals were legitimate targets?

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They are not a Colony yet.

Integrate Colony - Part of the colony of Western Wall or Hatvalley can be integrated into the People more fully, transitioning from a Colony to a province
*S: -6 Diplomacy, gain Econ and Martial from integrating Colony
*M: Same as above, completes at mid-turn

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They are a Vassal-Colony, too divergent in culture to be integrated for now.

 

[Susano]

Uh, no. We'd need to be so much in the lead in military that no-one is willing to contest us, and we're not nomads.

Remember, the higher the prestige we've got the more can be stolen by whatever power defeats us.

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Uh yes. The question was specifically about the mechanics for wars for KotH status.

So...

(technically when two great powers with King of the Hill make contact with each other and can directly interact, both sides have the capacity to back down - if both do so then the higher prestige nation maintains King of the Hill with a small prestige boost and the other nation takes a small hit. If the lower prestige nation backs down to an aggressive higher prestige nation, they take a moderate prestige hit and lose KotH. If the higher prestige nation backs down, then they transfer enough prestige to the aggressor to put them ten points behind the aggressor, losing KotH in the process.

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Yes. There's also the fact that if a King of the Hill loses that status to someone else gaining the top spot via accumulation of prestige, they can contest it.

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If there is no other KotH contestant, then there won't be Thunderdome Wars like this.

 

[Candesce]

If there is no other KotH contestant, then there won't be Thunderdome Wars like this.

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Susano?

Us having stratospheric prestige doesn't keep there from being other KotH contestants.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Can we consider spending a secondary on getting More Blackbirds? Our society is set up perfectly to develop spying, but until we take that action we aren't getting them.

 

[Susano]

Susano?

Us having stratospheric prestige doesn't keep there from being other KotH contestants.

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It kinda does? I mean, sure, everyone has the KotH casus belli against us. But this conflict arose because the Khemetri are in fact a peer-level civilization, and do have in fact a shot at taking the KotH status. In fact, it can be concluded that they are only 3 prestige behind us (hence the 13 prestige loss for backing down).

So, in theory, if there are no other contestants because we are so much in the lead, there won't be any thunderdome wars. Now, this is unrealistic of course, but hence the smilie at the end of my post which you so conveniently cut away. Now look at what you have made me do, explaining a joke to death!

 

[BungieONI]

Yeah, ouch. The Khemri specced for massive expansion and then took the traits that let them do this, but it means they have to keep expanding or they implode.

Meanwhile, we're more built for a 'Build Tall' style civ, but we have a problem in that we haven't had a chance to build as tall as we'd like because of how much territory we've swallowed in the last little while. Basically, if they came at us at a better time, I wouldn't be worried. But as things are, they basically have to make this a war to the knife--because it is one to them, their society literally cannot survive the hit that losing King of the Hill would cause given their apparent level of overextension.

I suspect if they knew of the existence of Great Power Thunderdome, they probably wouldn't have expanded north as much as they did since they knew we were the Big Man on the Hill here unless they had their ears plugged.

I think, statistically speaking, we have a modest logistical advantage here, as they're at the end of a long trail of colonies, while we're basically trying to stop them from encroaching on our own frontier. Couple that with our great riverboating capacity, and I think we have an edge. I suspect that Khemri can throw some staggering numbers into the grinder though.

Normally a Great Power War gets resolved quickly while the new equilibrium is settled and the new Big Man is determined, but they don't have a choice, they have to win or they risk imploding (Given how if we conceded, we'd have lost ground, while if we don't concede, we don't gain any clay--I suspect that they're effectively the aggressor here, just that we're taking an aggressive posture out the gate). And while we can win, it'll likely leave us vulnerable to the Trelli trying something.

Yeah, this is going to get ugly, but we don't really have much of a choice. Their build is such that they have to keep pushing or they risk falling apart. They're basically a victim of their own advantages here, and once the fighting starts and they find out that "Oh shit the Ymaryn are both closer to home, and actually pretty fucking good at this war thing", they're going to be doubly fucked because they'll be vulnerable to a civil war, so it'll become a full out "Any price is acceptable to win this conflict because we explode otherwise"

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You hit the nail on the head here. It's a common feature of the really powerful civs we know, including ourselves, to have some kind of specially optimized system in play.

I'm uncertain as to how long the Great War may go on, they may back out in some way as an attempt to save face, or they may stick it out to the kill.
*house shrug.jpg*
It's up in the air for me.

So. How likely is it that the Khemetris collapse could trigger a general collapse in the Med?

I doubt there will be a Bronze Age collapse, but odds are that the Trelli will act like scavengers and use their new wealth and veteran mercenary armies to move in on former Khemetri colonies and vassals.

Of course if we lose, the same may happen to us.

Then again, we have the advantage that Trelli is always in easy striking distance to us. Downside is, Valleyhome isn't far off either.

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Probably not very likely. There will likely be general chaos, a lot of it too, but I don't actually expect the Khem to fully die if they lose here. The more likely outcome to me is that they fracture into north and south components, core vs colonies along the east not!Med coast.

So we basically will build the Royal Artisans Guild?
Would be fun having the Royal Shipbuilders Guild...

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OH NOES! Not the Boats!

If anyone cares, I have found a historical use of the Terrify action against the Egyptians. One that may go against our values to some degree, but would be plausible for a Heroic Mystic to think of.

Behold!



Source:
Ancient Egyptian Warfare

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Wha? Okaaaaaay...

 

[Candesce]

So, in theory, if there are no other contestants because we are so much in the lead,

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The lead in question is military capability, not prestige.

Or, at least, perceived military capability, which we've a penalty to.

KotH civs will form outside our borders. If we expand into them or they expand into us, a Great Power war threatens.

For them to always back down, we've got to be seen as militarily untouchable, and I'm contesting the idea that we can reach that status through pure prestige pumping.