- Location
- Staring into the void
Reading the AN posts after, Rulwyna II would have been the lest likely to go wrong.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, they are probably inordinately wealthy. They are a goddamn trading civ it's what they do. But they are also extremely unlikely to become any sort of regional hegemon as you describe. Yeah, they can hire merc companies, but part of that bullying that merchant cities do to others is denial of crucial goods. It softens the state in question and either makes conquest easy for the mercs, or makes them capitulate.
There aren't any crucial goods to deny us. Sure, they could tell us to go fuck ourselves and that we aren't allowed in the market, but we have other trade partners and other options and we wouldn't be a soft target. Even Greenshore is no longer a soft target despite how far away it is from our core.
You're also forgetting that we provide a portion of over a half of all the goods they trade, and we are dominant in roughly a quarter of all of the goods they trade. We have a huge amount of influence over them as well. It's a two way street, and as I said before, they have no way to deny us strategic assets so our influence over them goes unmitigated.
- Location
- Philippines
Why it was a pretty good bet that he would win and we knew where he would go attack plus it not only lit a fire under our asses to finally pay attention to the north but also gave us quite a bit of advancement in the field of war and we now have zero blind spots in the north where the nomads can slip through.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
So...did we get any consensus on trading posts? I've been away for a few hours. From what I recall:
Points for:
- Passive Wealth income from saltern boost; +1 per turn, independent of market.
- Passive Wealth income from market boost; effects depend on location and probably won't do much until trade disruption finishes.
- Extra trade actions.
- Tech opportunities from new materials if it's in the far north.
- Reduce Martial by 2; helps integrate Stallions.
Points against:
- Increased exposure; Trelli is rated as "risky", far north as "dangerous". Not sure what rating Greenshore would have received, since I don't think we had danger ratings back then. Has initial Martial donation, but probably needs increased military presence.
- Increased admin strain; needs WoAN about how much a Trading Post affects admin. It would certainly be less than a province, since it's a subordinate.
And that looks to me like an excellent deal for something that costs a single main action.
If we can get clear information about the admin strain, then I think we can neatly deal with the military risk by using the extra Wealth (which is from a saltern and therefore reliable) to create a secondary mercenary company, further dropping Martial and assisting Stallion integration. Note that whenever the trading post is not under threat, this would significantly improve our overall national defence.
Am I missing something important here?
Points for:
- Passive Wealth income from saltern boost; +1 per turn, independent of market.
- Passive Wealth income from market boost; effects depend on location and probably won't do much until trade disruption finishes.
- Extra trade actions.
- Tech opportunities from new materials if it's in the far north.
- Reduce Martial by 2; helps integrate Stallions.
Points against:
- Increased exposure; Trelli is rated as "risky", far north as "dangerous". Not sure what rating Greenshore would have received, since I don't think we had danger ratings back then. Has initial Martial donation, but probably needs increased military presence.
- Increased admin strain; needs WoAN about how much a Trading Post affects admin. It would certainly be less than a province, since it's a subordinate.
And that looks to me like an excellent deal for something that costs a single main action.
If we can get clear information about the admin strain, then I think we can neatly deal with the military risk by using the extra Wealth (which is from a saltern and therefore reliable) to create a secondary mercenary company, further dropping Martial and assisting Stallion integration. Note that whenever the trading post is not under threat, this would significantly improve our overall national defence.
Am I missing something important here?
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pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I never said you were, but I was pointing out that their dominance over the slave trade has exactly zero effect on us besides the wealth it brings them.
For the SF, HK, and the TH, it was just another day at the park. For us, it was a matter of life and death.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
We are in the Bronze Age currently, so yes our commication and logistics techs are enforcing a hard limit on much territory we can hold at any point in time.
This won't be true forever. The colonial powers dominated the colonial age do to their ability to explore the world with their Shipping.
If we want to not turn into China or worse Pre-EU Germany we need a port to the open ocean so we are not landlocked and can explore and trade with the rest of the world.
The World is too big for us to meaningful encompass at the present time, but as transportation gets better the world will effectively shrink and I have no intention of us staying small and tiny because any action to gain more Clay is deemed "Evil". Notice how in the real world its not the small nations who matter? The big powers such as USA, China, EU, and Russia are enormous which gives them the lion's share of resources in our world.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't think there was a debate about even getting a trading post. Or even having both of them. Just which one should come first and would be more useful.
I am hoping they build more boats, because I am disappointed that they didn't built any damn boats this turn.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Actually it seemed to me like several people didn't like the idea, based on the two points against that I mentioned.
- Location
- Canada
No that was the admin genuis and he was the establishment candidiate and gave us plus 1 stability.
- Location
- Philippines
No trading posts until we secure our core and the lowlands we first need to integrate the lowland minors then vassilize the hk that way there is no one near us who can oppose us except maybe the TS who we will conquer in due time
You mean deceiving the voters and the citezens by making them think they were voting for Rulwynna the first yeah that won't cause any problems at all.
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Ancient Scholar
Amateur Editor/Beta
- Location
- United States
Should we eventually buy slaves and free them? I don't think we need more people.
The option is to free them when we take over and end the space trade.
The option is to free them when we take over and end the space trade.
- Location
- Hell
On the Topic of Trelli, I feel the thread is missing something really important.
They are not a brick wall.
They rely on a limited number of fast boats to stop people from passing.
Cut the Gordian Knot and call their bluff. Just build better boats. We can already outproduce them and as a city state, they won't have the resources to advance their boat tech at the same rate as we can.
Then their threat of shutting the city from us is meaningless and they would never be capable of damaging us at the scale we can them.
It is the worst thing you can do to someone attention seeking, ignore them.
You're kidding right?
BungieONI is not your friend here, he has struck multiple accords with yours truly~
They are not a brick wall.
They rely on a limited number of fast boats to stop people from passing.
Cut the Gordian Knot and call their bluff. Just build better boats. We can already outproduce them and as a city state, they won't have the resources to advance their boat tech at the same rate as we can.
Then their threat of shutting the city from us is meaningless and they would never be capable of damaging us at the scale we can them.
It is the worst thing you can do to someone attention seeking, ignore them.
Also, we do know what snow is, our Mountains do get peaked with them during winter.
False actually
We have plenty of room to expand without going to war.
Pffft
You're kidding right?
BungieONI is not your friend here, he has struck multiple accords with yours truly~
To be fair he did say as a secondary project, and many of us are curious on the total effects of what would happen. We have guesses, maybe even educated ones, but one Secondary Distribute Land would not change everything irrevocably.
- Location
- Staring into the void
Buying slaves to free them gets messy very fast. As it increases the demand for them, so the supply will try to increase to match.
Freeing them once we control Trelli is the simple option. (controlling Trelli is the had part with this.)
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
When devils fight does anyone give a dam?
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
Wait, since when is vassalizing the HK a top priority? They're not fighting us right now. Likewise conquering the TS.
And may I point out that in the plan I suggested, we would be using the trading post income to fund an extra mercenary company? That sounds to me like a very effective way to secure our core.
And one of the main objections to a trading post was the increase in administration, but if you're talking about instead integrating our vassal and getting another vassal...yeah, that's gonna be way more admin overhead than a trading outpost.
No. That is like trying to drain a lake by taken bucketfuls of water from it, moving them ten feet down the shore, and then dumping them out.
- Location
- his hidden lair
*facepalm* And we're allowed to respond to that how we please. I don't care if you think I'm am asshole, I don't care if you don't consider it just- but the stifling and restriction of trade makes an issue.
The idea that heavily restricting trade and shipping through a channel is not justification to provoke a military response is beyond infantile into downright stupidity. This isn't 'what happens on their side of the fence is their business' this is Panama or Egypt telling you to go fuck yourself and that you play their way or not at all. Both of those nations have tried that- Panama has gotten outright invaded by the US, and had a ton of less violent interventions. The Egyptians had the Suez Crisis that only ended because of US pressure.
And people waging war over it is just as fucking normal. And advantage from hypocrisy is a fact of life. The US funding the Contra, Suddam being supported against Iran.* Do you not understand the notion of pragmatism? That the phrase 'We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us.' means something, that it's not just a platitude. In the game of nations, the kind of uncompromising idealism you champion is called 'losing' because the moment you restrain yourself too much, the moment you establish too many lines you can't even contemplate crossing- someone else will.
This isn't about being tough, this isn't about cynicism, this isn't about hard men making hard decisions- it's the simple acceptance that reality has unpleasant truths to it that it falls upon a government to address so it's citizens never have to.
No, my argument is that successful nations always have- and that assuming we are above it is arrogance- that your hubris is going to see the happy lives of a million souls or more come crashing down when it hits a wall it can't batter through. That if you actually honest to god consider the implications of actions and the inherent necessity to be a morally flexible government- you'd realize just how untenable your argument is. There has never been an entirely moral great civilization, unlike you- I'm nowhere near arrogant to assume we're the exception.
At the end of the day- our first obligation is to see to the needs of our civilization first and foremost, and when the interests of our civ run at cross purposes of another civ, then it falls on us to resolve it. I don't particularly care if we resolve it by wiping them out, conquering them, or diplomatically subjugating them- I just care that this conflict of interests comes out in our favor. I prefer a peaceful solution in line with our civ's ideals, but I'm skeptical that's viable.
TLDR: Get over yourself, stop treating every successful civilization in existence with disdain, roll up your sleeves and minimize the bloodiness on all sides.
* I use these examples because as an American- they're the easiest to recall off the top of the head and America despite everything, is not an obviously 'immoral' nation.
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- Location
- Illinois
I suspect our average sailor isn't exactly going to have climbed a mountain though. So while we do know what snow is, I doubt many people have experienced that kind of cold.
Setting up stuff in the north is not going to be a fun experience for the Ymaryn.
Concho117
Going really fast!
- Location
- Somewhere in Orbit
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- Location
- Staring into the void
All expansion plans will change once the Palace and Law projects are done. Anything now is just speculation
We already talked about this a long ago. It was agreed that it was a stupid idea for many reasons.
Also note that while slaves may boost econ in the short term, it also makes a society more unstable and less enthusiastic about pursuing mechanization and industrialization.
There is a reason why we discovered watermill technology this early in the game.
I'd say it's certainly not a top priority, but as clay goes theirs is nice from a whole bunch of perspectives.
I wouldn't want to try conquering them - they'd be a lot more fractious than even the lowland minors, especially since they certainly have hereditary nobility - but the resources, defensive terrain, and shoring up of our most vulnerable salient in the lowlands, combined with the greater control over major rivers and the logistic benefits that would get us makes anything we can annex from them quite nice.
If we get really lucky and the weather breaks them, I say we try to absorb as many fragments as we can pull off.