Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
pblur said:
To be fair, we really should conquer Trelli some time in the next millenium. Ask the Turks about how hard it is to dislodge a city that understands siege warfare and defenses off the Bosphoros.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Surround the Black Sea and then either force them to capitulate or they'll be so much apart of our culture anyway they could just slip right in.

The fire is warm, you know.
 
@Karugus I find this immoral but pragmatically beneficial

If we make the TTP at the river accessing the Tin Tribes we can manage the flow of tin to the Trelli.

Academia Nut said:
The Trelli trade for it, mostly from western tribes it seems. There's a river north of their city that leads into mountainous interiors that appears to have a significant source of the tin they trade for.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Abby Normal said:
!!! New civ! Unless i'm blind, the "Tin Tribes" weren't mentioned in the update... @Academia Nut what do we know about them? Are they whats reforming in the Hathatyn lands?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Academia Nut said:
They're to the south of the MW, north-west of the Trelli.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
The Trelli might be a good trade post, but it doesn't particularly protect us against a large scale collapse in the regional governments. The only way to do that is to just increase the stability of our government.

Edit: That means better and more armies, better food security, better infrastructure, more efficient government in general, etc.
 
Last edited:
Karugus said:
I don't care if it's by fire and iron, gold and silver, or steles and spirits- but the Trelli have got to stop their obstruction, preferably in a way that lets us do the same to others. I'm not saying the Trelli aren't in their 'rights' to do it, but their rights don't matter as far as I'm concerned when they're infringing on ours. This isn't simply the Trelli having a dominant position in trade, or being middlemen- this is having a foreign nation threatening our equivalent of the Suez canal and refusing to let us through it- all while we're potentially close enough to open that passage up if forced.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Shit, man, you need to calm down and stop acting like we're entitled to jack shit. The straight the Trelli are on is the Trelli's land. They can do whatever they want with it, just as we can do whatever we want with our land. Like, do you not realise just how assholeish your stance is? It's completely against anything that could be called justice.

It's nothing more than saying "Those guys have something and I don't have that something, therefore it is morally right for me to take it." Only an asshole would say that. It's wrong. Our Justice value is meant to show that our people realise that you still shouldn't do a bad thing even if that bad thing will give you an advantage. It's grating how you keep trying to throw away all our hard-earned traits which make us morally good, all to make us just like every other civilisation around us, i.e. like assholes. We should not be assholes, regardless of whether it gives us an advantage, regardless of the time period. Our people understand that and so should you.

It's also entirely hypocritical. The Trelli demand that you trade with them to pass through their territory. That's entirely normal! That's how trade works! We, the HK, the Xoh, the Trelli, the Hathatyn, etc., they all have a rule for traders that you trade as you pass through their territory. There's nothing wrong with that. To say that it is just because we are now the ones getting inconvenienced is wrong. If we were the Trelli, we would have every right to demand others trade with us when they pass through our straight. It's hypocrisy, and no, that it's the bronze age and that we gain advantage from hypocrisy are not good reasons to be hypocrites.

Your argument that people acted a certain way in this time period and that we thus should is an especially shit argument that ignores the entire point of this quest. The tag is 'history is in your hands', not 'act like people acted historically'. The whole of the Ymaryn is a testament to how we can and should try to be different from how civilisations normally were in this time period.
 
Andres110 said:
It's also entirely hypocritical. The Trelli demand that you trade with them to pass through their territory.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Very good post, but a Minor nitpick: word of AN says that they don't let us pass through even if we do trade with them
Academia Nut said:
They don't let you through, you have to trade with them all there and then turn around when you're done, same as traders from the south not going north past them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Andres110 said:
Shit, man, you need to calm down and stop acting like we're entitled to jack shit. The straight the Trelli are on is the Trelli's land. They can do whatever they want with it, just as we can do whatever we want with our land. Like, do you not realise just how assholeish your stance is? It's completely against anything that could be called justice.

It's nothing more than saying "Those guys have something and I don't have that something, therefore it is morally right for me to take it." Only an asshole would say that. It's wrong. Our Justice value is meant to show that our people realise that you still shouldn't do a bad thing even if that bad thing will give you an advantage. It's grating how you keep trying to throw away all our hard-earned traits which make us morally good, all to make us just like every other civilisation around us, i.e. like assholes. We should not be assholes, regardless of whether it gives us an advantage, regardless of the time period. Our people understand that and so should you.

It's also entirely hypocritical. The Trelli demand that you trade with them to pass through their territory. That's entirely normal! That's how trade works! We, the HK, the Xoh, the Trelli, the Hathatyn, etc., they all have a rule for traders that you trade as you pass through their territory. There's nothing wrong with that. To say that it is just because we are now the ones getting inconvenienced is wrong. If we were the Trelli, we would have every right to demand others trade with us when they pass through our straight. It's hypocrisy, and no, that it's the bronze age and that we gain advantage from hypocrisy are not good reasons to be hypocrites.

Your argument that people acted a certain way in this time period and that we thus should is an especially shit argument that ignores the entire point of this quest. The tag is 'history is in your hands', not 'act like people acted historically'. The whole of the Ymaryn is a testament to how we can and should try to be different from how civilisations normally were in this time period.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

But we can't go past them! They're limiting our ability to explore the Mediterranean sea! We don't have freedom of navigation where we just pay a fee to be on our merry way.
 
Andres110 said:
It's also entirely hypocritical. The Trelli demand that you trade with them to pass through their territory. That's entirely normal! That's how trade works! We, the HK, the Xoh, the Trelli, the Hathatyn, etc., they all have a rule for traders that you trade as you pass through their territory. There's nothing wrong with that. To say that it is just because we are now the ones getting inconvenienced is wrong. If we were the Trelli, we would have every right to demand others trade with us when they pass through our straight. It's hypocrisy, and no, that it's the bronze age and that we gain advantage from hypocrisy are not good reasons to be hypocrites.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Except they don't allow us to pass through their territory for anything. If all they did was exact a toll, then we'd be (mostly) fine with them. But we aren't allowed into the Mediterranean. Not for trade and not for exploration. We can't interact with the Not!Greeks, Not!Italians, or the Not!Egyptians. We can't access the Not!Atlantic.

They have made a stand and said You Shall Not Pass. They have claimed everything for themselves, and deign to sell us scraps at grossly inflated prices.
 
Andres110 said:
Your argument that people acted a certain way in this time period and that we thus should is an especially shit argument that ignores the entire point of this quest. The tag is 'history is in your hands', not 'act like people acted historically'. The whole of the Ymaryn is a testament to how we can and should try to be different from how civilisations normally were in this time period.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Different behavior won't change our geopolitical necessity of owning that spot, us taking it from them is neither good nor bad, just realpolitik

Don't get me wrong: if we can diplo-annex via treaty, buy it out, or accept their vassalization I'm fine with doing those too. But Trelli's days of independence are numbered.

Flatly its our major roadblock to getting access to our western ocean shore. Ask any American how important it is to have access to two oceans.
 
Abby Normal said:
Hmm...all this looking at the map has me wondering...why don't we have more settlement or colony options? Specifically, in the area between our southern border and the HK's north border; we have the cataracts area, but thats on the river, leaving a lot of extra space to teh west of the river and to the east of Hatvalley. Likewise, there's the spot to the west of Hatriver along the coast, above Hatvalley. @Academia Nut ?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That location is close enough that you just settle the "south of the cataracts" area to begin opening it up as a new province.
 
Andres110 said:
Shit, man, you need to calm down and stop acting like we're entitled to jack shit. The straight the Trelli are on is the Trelli's land. They can do whatever they want with it, just as we can do whatever we want with our land. Like, do you not realise just how assholeish your stance is? It's completely against anything that could be called justice.

It's nothing more than saying "Those guys have something and I don't have that something, therefore it is morally right for me to take it." Only an asshole would say that. It's wrong. Our Justice value is meant to show that our people realise that you still shouldn't do a bad thing even if that bad thing will give you an advantage. It's grating how you keep trying to throw away all our hard-earned traits which make us morally good, all to make us just like every other civilisation around us, i.e. like assholes. We should not be assholes, regardless of whether it gives us an advantage, regardless of the time period. Our people understand that and so should you.

It's also entirely hypocritical. The Trelli demand that you trade with them to pass through their territory. That's entirely normal! That's how trade works! We, the HK, the Xoh, the Trelli, the Hathatyn, etc., they all have a rule for traders that you trade as you pass through their territory. There's nothing wrong with that. To say that it is just because we are now the ones getting inconvenienced is wrong. If we were the Trelli, we would have every right to demand others trade with us when they pass through our straight. It's hypocrisy, and no, that it's the bronze age and that we gain advantage from hypocrisy are not good reasons to be hypocrites.

Your argument that people acted a certain way in this time period and that we thus should is an especially shit argument that ignores the entire point of this quest. The tag is 'history is in your hands', not 'act like people acted historically'. The whole of the Ymaryn is a testament to how we can and should try to be different from how civilisations normally were in this time period.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Lawful Neutral

As little asshole as possible, but as much as necessary.
 
Kiba said:
But we can't go past them! They're limiting our ability to explore the Mediterranean sea! We don't have freedom of navigation where we just pay a fee to be on our merry way.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Freedom of Navigation as we know it is a fairly modern thing. True, it did exist in some form but you were not in any way required to let it. There are not really any international standards yet.
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
Freedom of Navigation as we know it is a fairly modern thing. True, it did exist in some form but you were not in any way required to let it. There are not really any international standards yet.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Correct. Those international standards happened because people were willing to throw their weight around to get it. And so people ended up negotiating a standard for everywhere to reduce conflict.
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
Freedom of Navigation as we know it is a fairly modern thing. True, it did exist in some form but you were not in any way required to let it. There are not really any international standards yet.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Actually, I am incorrect in stating that you pay a fee for freedom of navigation. You don't.

But the fact that we can't even pay a fee to get through is galling.
 
pblur said:
Correct. Those international standards happened because people were willing to throw their weight around to get it. And so people ended up negotiating a standard for everywhere to reduce conflict.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Indeed. I wasn't arguing about whether we should or should not use force or try to provoke an incident. I was merely saying that they are in no way obligated to allow us through the strait as it is.
 
Actually if take Trelli, the TS, and ETH to gain access to Eastern Salt Sea, would that recreate the American advantage of having the worlds biggest moats?
Especially as we have the Drawbacks of Divine Stewards and Lord's Loyalty.
Forcing most warfare to be naval in nature so we can't lose clay sounds to be in our best interests in the long run.
 
@Rakuhn Minor nitpick: they don't limit sales to being between foreigners and Trell. Thus, they made a stand and said, "if you want to trade you're going to trade in our city."
 
I wouldn't mind taking the Trelli since we are on a slow crash course collision with them the same way we are with the HK. A Trelli trade post would need us to build the Grand Docks to contest their navy. The Trelli trade post will come under threat the more Hatvalley grows and if we turn Greenshore into a colony. So I would wait until we have our house in order before entangling ourselves into a naval war.
 
pbluekan said:
But how would it get us more gold from them in any significant quantity. We already trade with them quickly and regularly through greenshore. We also likely pay a premium for silver and gold, which means our trade partners hold it for us.

I understand the idea of what you're suggesting, I just don't think will work that way.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well I'm thinking about it like this:

Hypothetically if we put the trade post down and it gives us contact with the Tin Tribes who are the source of Trelli tin, suddenly the Trelli have to trade with us even more for some of the tin they were once buying from the Tin Tribes. This does not require us cutting the Trelii off from the Tin Tribes entirely, which I don't think is fully possible even with dominance.

Does this make sense for us getting even more silver and gold out of the Trelli? We basically stick a syphon/cut out in their tin stream and in order to get the same amount they were before they have to pay us. Not to mention that that tin is something we could theoretically trade to the bronze civs near us when they are done being fucked.
 
Last edited:
Academia Nut said:
That location is close enough that you just settle the "south of the cataracts" area to begin opening it up as a new province.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ooh, ok, that makes sense; also means there's even more reason to grab the cataracts location... I assume the bit to the west of Hatriver is too far for regular settlement and/or part of hatvalley's domain as a colony already?
 
BungieONI said:
Well I'm thinking about it like this:

Hypothetically if we put the trade post down and it gives us contact with the Tin Tribes who are the source of Trelli tin, suddenly the Trelli have to trade with us even more for some of the tin they were once buying from the Tin Tribes. This does not require us cutting the Trelii off from the Tin Tribes entirely, which I don't think is fully possible even with dominance.

Does this make sense for us getting even more silver and gold out of the Trelli? We basically stick a syphon/cut out in their tin stream and in order to get the same amount they were before they have to pay us. Not to mention that that tin is something we could theoretically trade to the bronze civs near us when they are done being fucked.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Siphon*

But, that would make sense if the Tin Tribes were on the east side of the Trelli. They're not, they're north, closer to the MW. We likely already get a significant chunk of their tin through Greenshore. In either case, putting a TP between Greenshore and Trelli makes little sense for unloading bulk goods, given that we are already doing that at greenshore. If I had to guess, it would be placed on the eastern side of Trelli, closer to Hatriver. It's a more direct route back to the core.
 
Academia Nut said:
It is the latter situation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Bout what I figured.

Looking at the map actually I think Hatvalley is going to be a longer term headache then West Wall and has just jumped up my priority list for full integration.

All that empty space they can go into while West Wall has a mountain says to me should work on eating all of them before they get too big.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top