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Paths of Civilization

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Academia Nut said:
It is the latter situation.
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Good to know. As long as i'm asking questions*, i had a thought earlier. Have we taken in enough refugees to have an idea of what our neighbors actually think about our iron advantage? Like, do they still think we just found a bunch of giant meteorites, do they know we mine and smelt it, do they think the Gods gifted either the iron itself or the knowledge to us, do they think its something so supernatural they can't hope to figure it out on their own, or arethey treating it as the natural thing it is and trying to figure it out furiously? Have their traders been making pointed requests for iron tools or anything?

*i say as if i'm ever in this thread and not asking you too many questions :p
 
VoidZero said:
Bring it bruh! Better aim your shot carefully.:V

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Ahem.

*BLAM*

[Insert Kyubey getting shot by Homura]


pbluekan said:
Siphon*

But, that would make sense if the Tin Tribes were on the east side of the Trelli. They're not, they're north, closer to the MW. We likely already get a significant chunk of their tin through Greenshore. In either case, putting a TP between Greenshore and Trelli makes little sense for unloading bulk goods, given that we are already doing that at greenshore. If I had to guess, it would be placed on the eastern side of Trelli, closer to Hatriver. It's a more direct route back to the core.
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Thank you for the spell check <3

Sure if they were on the east side my argument would be a lot stronger. I am uncertain of how much Greenshore is trading with the Tin Tribes, because we learned about them only recently. We probably are now that you mention it. I, however, don't think that it is impossible to insert ourselves even more into that trade stream and become even more of a middle man between the T Tribes and Trelli. *houseshrug.jpg*

My thinking on the entire value of the Trelli TP matter is that they obviously have enough resources and income flowing through them to let us buy them basically out while still trading with the Tin Tribes, the Khem, the Saffron Isles and the rest of the Not!Med. And I basically want even more in on those resource streams because they mean more money money dollah dollah for us which we need. So thus my suggestion to become even more of a middle man between them and the Tin Tribes which is one resource stream.

As a disclaimer though that I should have gotten out earlier, I don't really want to do this stuff until the Palace is done. I also feel that we will need the Census to really put our admin issues into remission so I also want to wait till after that is done, which is about two or three turns more time added in somewhere.
 
pbluekan said:
Siphon*

But, that would make sense if the Tin Tribes were on the east side of the Trelli. They're not, they're north, closer to the MW. We likely already get a significant chunk of their tin through Greenshore. In either case, putting a TP between Greenshore and Trelli makes little sense for unloading bulk goods, given that we are already doing that at greenshore. If I had to guess, it would be placed on the eastern side of Trelli, closer to Hatriver. It's a more direct route back to the core.
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Based on the map, the tin tribes are on the river west of Trelli. Might be a good reason to put it there.
 
pblur said:
Based on the map, the tin tribes are on the river west of Trelli. Might be a good reason to put it there.
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Sure, but that would make sense if we were setting up a trading post for the tin tribes. Putting one that far out to trade with the Trelli doesn't really give us any more advantage than using greenshore for that purpose.
 
all this talk of Trading Posts is heresy the one true vote is

Main New Trails
Main New Trails x2
Secondary Distribute Land

all hail roads
 
Manget said:
all this talk of Trading Posts is heresy the one true vote is

Main New Trails
Main New Trails x2
Secondary Distribute Land

all hail roads
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That is still a terrible idea, narratively, IMO. Every time the subject of distribute land has come up in the narrative, it has been under the auspices of greedy chiefs and other nobility. You have to remember, it isn't really the land they're administering. It's the people, and I'm hesitant to hand greedy powermongers private jurisdiction over people.
 
pbluekan said:
That is still a terrible idea, narratively, IMO. Every time the subject of distribute land has come up in the narrative, it has been under the auspices of greedy chiefs and other nobility. You have to remember, it isn't really the land they're administering. It's the people, and I'm hesitant to hand greedy powermongers private jurisdiction over people.
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No the only people who should have any power is the god-king
 
Personally I'm in favor of Crimea-ing the Trelli.

We can probably get the Khemetri and Saffroners to help if we word it right.
 
pbluekan said:
You have to remember, it isn't really the land they're administering. It's the people, and I'm hesitant to hand greedy powermongers private jurisdiction over people.
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In this particular case it'd be the people responsible for maintaining the trails, probably.

Which has the bonus of being something that - well, the people who build or use roads are pretty much by definition people capable of travelling, which means we get to catch the problem early. On the other hand, it's also a pretty critical problem to catch; we do not want people skimming from the trail maintenance budget.

That said, we're not going to develop solutions if we never encounter the problem; we can wait until after the palace, maybe, but I'd rather like our administration to be aware it exists when it comes time to write new laws.
 
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pbluekan said:
That is still a terrible idea, narratively, IMO. Every time the subject of distribute land has come up in the narrative, it has been under the auspices of greedy chiefs and other nobility. You have to remember, it isn't really the land they're administering. It's the people, and I'm hesitant to hand greedy powermongers private jurisdiction over people.
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Well think about the scenarios where they came up:

Rulwyna I when she was overworked and possibly showing weakness, is the most prominent for me. Then I'm pretty sure powermonger chiefs scented the blood in the water and tried to exploit her overworkedness. Thus it is kinda obvious that they'd be powermongers.

I figure us actually taking DL on our volition will cut out a lot of that.

Manget said:
No the only people who should have any power is the god-king
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Also this is rather insightful and funny.


Concho117 said:
Personally I'm in favor of Crimea-ing the Trelli.

We can probably get the Khemetri and Saffroners to help if we word it right.
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???

Explain please? It sounds fun.
 
Concho117 said:
Personally I'm in favor of Crimea-ing the Trelli.

We can probably get the Khemetri and Saffroners to help if we word it right.
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What? Why would they help us take over the neutral trade city?

And when you say Crimea-ing there is actually a word for that. It's called invading and occupying, which in this day and age is just a takeover.

Edit: what you're actually advocating is what nazi Germany and the Soviets did to Poland.
 
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BungieONI said:
Well think about the scenarios where they came up:

Rulwyna I when she was overworked and possibly showing weakness, is the most prominent for me. Then I'm pretty sure powermonger chiefs scented the blood in the water and tried to exploit her overworkedness. Thus it is kinda obvious that they'd be powermongers.

I figure us actually taking DL on our volition will cut out a lot of that.


Also this is rather insightful and funny.



???

Explain please? It sounds fun.
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Essentially we argue to the Khemetri, Saffroners, etc. that in exchange for subjugation/elimination of the Trelli we promise them better trade deals. The money would come from the new profit margin on the untaxed trade routes.

pbluekan said:
What? Why would they help us take over the neutral trade city?

And when you say Crimea-ing there is actually a word for that. It's called invading and occupying, which in this day and age is just a takeover.

Edit: what you're actually advocating is what nazi Germany and the Soviets did to Poland.
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Yes, it is a takeover.

Also yes the Soviets and Nazi's did it but so did the Americans with the Native Americans, the Romans with the Barbarians, and any sufficiently powerful polity that wanted someone else's land.
 
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Concho117 said:
Essentially we argue to the Khemetri, Saffroners, etc. that in exchange for subjugation/elimination of the Trelli we promise them better trade deals. The money would come from the new profit margin on the untaxed trade routes.



Yes, it is a takeover.

Also yes the Nazi's did it but so did the Americans with the Native Americans, the Romans with the Barbarians, and any sufficiently powerful polity that wanted someone else's land.
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Ahh.

Seems unnecessary to me to make the deal beforehand since once we take them over through some means(I prefer diplo or trade means, longer term but lower intensity effort) and then make a deal with the Khem and peoples.

What is the advantage that you see to doing it the way you suggest?

E: oh wait. Unless you mean getting the Khem and Saffroners to do it for us?
 
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Concho117 said:
Essentially we argue to the Khemetri, Saffroners, etc. that in exchange for subjugation/elimination of the Trelli we promise them better trade deals. The money would come from the new profit margin on the untaxed trade routes.



Yes, it is a takeover.

Also yes the Nazi's did it but so did the Americans with the Native Americans, the Romans with the Barbarians, and any sufficiently powerful polity that wanted someone else's land.
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Chill we aren't systemically murdering entire groups of people then restricting their kinsmen with institutional racism. This is exactly like Crimea, we take over and connect their civ to ours and all their citizens are given the same rights along with the majority being freed from slavery.
 
keenscythe said:
Different behavior won't change our geopolitical necessity of owning that spot, us taking it from them is neither good nor bad, just realpolitik
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There is no necessity of owning that spot. We have survived for over a thousand years without owning that spot. Owning that spot is beneficial, it lets us trade with the Mediterranean, but it is not necessary in the slightest.

Then there's that damn fallacy that realpolitik makes everything it touches not-evil. That is a lie. It may be realpolitik to take another civilisation's resources because it may benefit you, but that's still so obviously a morally wrong act. Evil does not become good or neutral just because you benefit from it. It remains evil. We got our Justice trait because we chose against making our civilisation all about realpolitik, as all our neighbours have done. The greatest thing we've managed to accomplish playing this game is making a civilisation of good people who do good things, even when it hurts them.
 
BungieONI said:
Ahh.

Seems unnecessary to me to make the deal beforehand since once we take them over through some means(I prefer diplo or trade means, longer term but lower intensity effort) and then make a deal with the Khem and peoples.

What is the advantage that you see to doing it the way you suggest?

E: oh wait. Unless you mean getting the Khem and Saffroners to do it for us?
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Less a 'them doing it for us' more a joint invasion. Sort of what the Unites States did with the Middle East and NATO.
 
ETA50M said:
Chill we aren't systemically murdering entire groups of people then restricting their kinsmen with institutional racism. This is exactly like Crimea, we take over and connect their civ to ours and all their citizens are given the same rights along with the majority being freed from slavery.
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That wasn't where we were going with that. I was specifically referring to the deal that split Poland in two.
 
Andres110 said:
There is no necessity of owning that spot. We have survived for over a thousand years without owning that spot. Owning that spot is beneficial, it lets us trade with the Mediterranean, but it is not necessary in the slightest.

Then there's that damn fallacy that realpolitik makes everything it touches not-evil. That is a lie. It may be realpolitik to take another civilisation's resources because it may benefit you, but that's still so obviously a morally wrong act. Evil does not become good or neutral just because you benefit from it. It remains evil. We got our Justice trait because we chose against making our civilisation all about realpolitik, as all our neighbours have done. The greatest thing we've managed to accomplish playing this game is making a civilisation of good people who do good things, even when it hurts them.
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Wait, then how do you justify Phygrif?

He pretty clearly didn't have the well-being of the Xoh in mind when he razed that city. There's a reason we're known as city killers after all.
 
Concho117 said:
Less a 'them doing it for us' more a joint invasion. Sort of what the Unites States did with the Middle East and NATO.
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Ah.

Yeah when I thought you meant that we would get them to invade it for us, I immediately had a thought of "This sounds like a terrible idea, because what is actually making them inclined to give it to us when they have it?" This is slightly offset by our power, but conflicted by limited Bronze Age social complexity and social experience due to lack of time passage.

The split it with them might work, but I think it runs into similar problems as above. Most of the Lowlands knows of our strength, but the Not!Med cultures don't so I think it'd be a risk. And an unnecessary one for the reason I outlined above, i.e we have time to absorb Trelli without help.
 
BungieONI said:
Ah.

Yeah when I thought you meant that we would get them to invade it for us, I immediately had a thought of "This sounds like a terrible idea, because what is actually making them inclined to give it to us when they have it?" This is slightly offset by our power, but conflicted by limited Bronze Age social complexity and social experience due to lack of time passage.

The split it with them might work, but I think it runs into similar problems as above. Most of the Lowlands knows of our strength, but the Not!Med cultures don't so I think it'd be a risk. And an unnecessary one for the reason I outlined above, i.e we have time to absorb Trelli without help.
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Well, what about paying them for indirect support rather then direct help?

Also, I have to ask but why is the Hap-Con a thing and has it ever reached 0?
 
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