Hard to add afterwards is true for all,
False, as I noted in the post literally right above yours.
Expanding the Great Hall or Gardens will require considerable renovation as they take up a lot of space, and the Great Hall especially needs to be continuous. Others you can just add on a new building where you can make room, for the most part anyway.
The other additions will cost us 2 Econ, 2 Art, and 1 Main to add. (Currently they cost 1/1/1). Those two specifically have an unknown additional cost.

As to the storehouse, yes it would help. However it's noted that the storehouses are already nearby, so it wouldn't help that much.
The king's residence was already close to a number of central storehouses and granaries
 
I'm not so sure. I'd expect it to be ~2 going downriver and a week going up. Though that's based on a loose memory of it being about as far as redshore is.
AN posted that Redshore and Valleyhome are a week apart at a walk and a day with a fast horse. Sacred Forest is pretty much smack in the middle, so....

Edit: as it is, when we get further along, the whole area is going to turn into a megalopolis akin to the US eastern seaboard. Just probably more green.
 
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Holy site descriptions
Major Holy Sites

Rainbow Trail - Location: Valleyhome Province

The oldest holy site, this community once marked the rough half-way point between Upper Valleyhome and Redshore. While changes in movement patterns meant that it was reduced in importance economically centuries ago, this site remains important because it is the burial place of kings and high priests, as well as a storehouse of the oldest and most important relics of the People. For the rare few with the capacity to do so, this place is considered an important stopping point on pilgrimages out of Valleyhome to Holy Sea and the Sacred Forest, forming part of what is known of as the Triangle Path.

Sacred Forest -Location: Sacred Forest, Sacred Forest

Holiest of holies, this combination of temple, city, and forest can be defined of as narrowly as the temple complex to the gods, with Fythhagyna and Crow at the center. A place of learning, scholarship, and debate, it is also one of the biggest consumers of art in the kingdom. The central pilgrimage site for the People and even outsiders attracted to know more of their gods and mystic arts, everyone dreams of one day making the trip, and a fair fraction of the populace will find the time and resources to make the trip. Those who live in and tend the forests consider themselves the holiest of all the People, and pilgrims will often make offerings of labour to do minor tasks such as the planting of trees or the repair of retaining walls, under the supervision of expert artisans and priests.

Holy Sea- Location: Redshore

Just outside the urban area of Redshore there is a secluded cove among the cliffs where the stones form beautiful bands and the sea comes in just right at high tide to create a place of wonder and serenity. While the actual location is largely preserved, structures have grown up around the perimeter to house the priests and shamans who make offerings to the sea and peer into the pools at low tide to seek omens of the future. The populace of Redshore come by with offerings of fruit and grain to be sacrificed to the sea in exchange for the bounties of fish they bring in.

Horse Valley - Location: Stonepen

A broad box canyon that has had living structures sprout up along the perimeter, Horse Valley serves both as a place to house sacred herds of cattle and horses for the Stonepen region and as the premier star gazing location, renowned for its clear nights and excellent sight lines. While a favorite with locals and mystically inclined shamans, it is far enough off the main trails that it gets comparatively little attention for its age. The founding of the Heaven's Hawk has considerably increased its traffic, and sacred falconers have begun to appear among the priests and shamans.

White Circle - Location: Northshore

A natural shrine formed from a break in the ground forming an enclosure of natural white megaliths, White Circle is a small place that has slowly gained considerable wealth as traders frequently make small offerings there as they sail the coasts, this serving as the natural break point between the dangerous cliff of Redshore province and the gentler shores of the northern provinces.

Warrior's Rest - Location: Northshore

Found at a key stop off point along the trails out of the hills in the south heading towards the Stallion Tribes, Warrior's Rest is the religious center of the north, as the settlement serves as a logistical resting point for warriors traveling across the kingdom to the various fights - usually in the north - and also as a massive cemetery for those who fell in battle in the north, their bodies unable to be taken all the way home before decomposition grew too terrible to transport.

Star Mirror - Location: Blackriver

A curiously out of place sinkhole in dark stone, the water that collects in this secluded place is always dark and clear, and thus when the sun sets it becomes a perfect mirror for the heaven's above. While not as good for the direct study of stars, many priests and shamans claim to have nearly lost themselves in the glittering dark, their souls detached from their bodies. There have also been assuredly been those who literally lost themselves to the surprisingly water through accident or darker means. Aside from disturbing the water, there is also a fairly strong current of mysterious source just beneath the surface that is believed to be part of what keeps the water so clean.

Sunrise Grove - Location: Redhills

Located within the dry hills of Redhills, Sunrise Grove faces to the east to greet the sun every morning. Situated in a place of rolling, golden sandstone, this holy site is based more around the necessities of the community to have a meeting place than any particular natural feature.

Skyforest - Location: Southshore

Along the seaside cliffs of Southshore, one in particular rises up into a particularly high and flat plateau. Covered in thick forests, the place also seems to attract fogs to its feet, making the forest seem to sit within the clouds, both from the sea looking in and from the forest looking out. While maintained with care, the eerie fogs long ago lead the shamans to leave the forests wilder than most, to serve as a place of communion with the primordial green of the world.

Bloodgrove - Location: Redshore

The stones here bleed, stained with iron. Bloodgrove is one of these deposits, paired with a profusion of plants that seem to grow nowhere else. The priests protect the sanctity of this place from the miners, while also supporting their spiritual needs. Many say that it is in Bloodgrove that the blood of those killed in beneath the earth wells up, and here it is that the priests put the spirits of unquiet miners back to rest.

Spiritwell - Location: Blackriver

Little more than a natural well at first, it was soon discovered that sound did strange things when one went to get a bucket of water. Soon enough priests and shamans were brought in, and it was discovered that down in the narrow confines there was a cave system, and the whispers of spirits could be heard if one paid close attention. After a few generations it was realized that priests and shamans who spent too much time there had a tendency to go mad with the revelations of the spirits, and thus the membership there is on strict rotation with other holy sites. This has made Spiritwell a place of learning second only to the Big Three.

Moonwell - Location: Southshore

A most peculiar place, this spring and pool sits at the bottom of a natural channel between two hills. Centuries ago it was observed that during the solstices the moon had a tendency to be bracketed by the sides of the channel, and soon a major astrological observatory sprang up to track what phases of the moon could be seen from this location at what times of the year and what it could mean.

Sparkling Cave - Location: Hatriver

An old site first found by the Hathatyn, the Sparkling Cave is a former mine that ran out of ore millennia ago but also lead to the discovery of a chamber where the walls are filled with tiny sparkling crystals. A single candle makes the chamber shine like the night sky, and it was only natural that priests take up shop for this important holy site and place of pilgrimage.
 
OTOH, Valleyhome still is where most issues are by themselves. Even if we make Redshore our capital, Valleyhome will remain our cultural, economical and population centre. IMO it will cause strain to separate the central administration from that.
Exactly. Valleyhome doesn't exist because our administration is there. Our administration is there because of what Valleyhome is. We would have heard or seen something if people even considered anything else.
 
So, in the interest of not biting off too much, I'm going to vote for.
[X] [Loc] Valleyhome

[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
[X] Library x3
[X] Gardens

Yes, I'm aware this is a fair amount still. That said, making the biggest library in the Palace, and making a library an order of magnitude larger than the rest of the libraries period, has some incredible advantages. Doing this will encourage knowledge and gathering of information, which will in turn encourage learning said information. Combining this with the features that will attract people in the Great Hall and Gardens should start pushing us towards education on some level. Granted, I'm not sure how much it will do so, but it should help by quite a bit.

Note: If I was going to just add to the limit I"d probably double the Hall and Gardens.
 
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Where? I didn't read any such thing.

And you realize people traveling to Valleyhome probably just get on a boat to Redshore then walk to Valleyhome.

They aren't that far apart. Your point about ease of use doesn't make any sense. What is a week when you have been on the road/a boat for 4 months?
If it was that simple then why did the update and WOG specifically vouch for Redshore? Short term wise Valleyhome is easy to choose but long term points in favour of Redshore.
For placement, the big argument was whereto put the new palace. While Valleyhome was obvious, the other two candidates were Sacred Forest and Redshore. Given the pilgrimages of shamans and commoners to the temple in Sacred Forest, there were many who felt that it was already the heart of the People, and it had the connections to also serve as a significant center of government. Redshore, while not quite as grand or urbanas the larger Valleyhome or Sacred Forest,had always been a major center of trade and industry, and given its access to the sea was probably the easiest for the majority ofprovinces to get delegates to. Also, while its geography meant that getting properamounts of water to allow it to really expand remained a tricky proposition, once anaqueduct was put in it would have the best and easiest drainage of them all. Of course, everyone had their own opinion on the politics of it all, and the argumentation could get pretty vicious at times.
The heart of Ymaryn culture is Sacred Forest but combing religion and politicis rarely ends well for religion. Redshore is preferred by our provinces and has the best drainage once we built an aqeduct there as well. Best drainage also means it has the most potential to expand with the least problems.
 
There is no basis to think that Redshore versus Valleyhome would be preferable to our periphery states. The distance between the two just doesn't matter when you're already taking 4 months out for travel. I rather think they would be pissed at us developing the infrastructure for another southern city when we really didn't need to or could have built up one of their own.
Basis is here:
Redshore, while not quite as grand or urban as the larger Valleyhome or Sacred Forest, had always been a major center of trade and industry, and given its access to the sea was probably the easiest for the majority of provinces to get delegates to.
Western Wall and Hat Colony do not appreciate the long journey to Valleyhome, and this will only worsen as our ships get faster
Still not getting how storerooms are so essential, maybe Veekie can explain it. They're something that already exists and are to be built in one place to store something that isn't actually moved very far in this time period. They're nice, I know, but still.
Oh good, this I can answer fairly easily. You get a pretty good idea as IT support for a logistics company.

Basically. Transit stores for strategic goods.
Say you have a batch of iron bars being shipped out.
If you send it without passing through the Palace, that means that you triple the administrative distance, as your clerks will have to record it locally at the warehouse, then send a runner to bring the tallies to the palace library, where it's compared with our national stocks and then they bring another runner to the warehouse, who then break the bulk shipment into 5-6 smaller shipments as per the central orders, authorize shipment out and then the goods leave on six caravans/ships.

If you send it and you have a warehouse in the palace itself, that vastly shortens the transit time. Strategic goods will be shipped in, arrive at the palace warehouses, where they are stored for days to weeks while the clerks handle distribution planning/wait for ships to arrive, before being redistributed.
This, incidentally, is why Valleyhome is a bad choice, because the route to the Canal might be fine for messengers, but having to transit between warehouse, central command, land route, longship and then ocean ship is basically increasing the administrative distance for purely political reasons.
Well, hell, Sacred Forest and Valleyhome can't be more than a long day or two apart at an easy pace.
Three days was the last info I believe, two days trek over hills, then a day's sail by canal.
The problem is we can make the canal part faster, but not the hills part faster until we invent the steam engine.

The sea route will ALWAYS be faster in this era. It takes about the same amount of time to reach Redshore from Western Wall as to reach Valleyhome from Stonepen.
 
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@Academia Nut Will popular-but-not-accepted options potentially affect the layout of the building? Eg gardens look like they're not quite getting in, but still getting lots of votes; would that potentially mean that space is set aside for them but not yet developed, reducing later remodeling?

Possibly.

1. Shouldn't we have 9 art? 9 art (last turn) - 2 (Palace) + 1 (Carrions) +1 (Blackbirds)
2. Will building (or expanding) a garden annex or expanding the great hall annex after this vote be impossible, or cost more than the usual 2 econ/2art/1 main action, or be less functional, due to the need to redo things more extensively than other annexes?

Yes.
No. On the one hand they are more work to rearrange the area, on the other they are relatively simple structurally.

are we supposed to be using some kind of thread tag for the annexes?

No.

Is Redshore certainly a better long term prospect then Valleyhome @Academia Nut

It could be. Then again, if you really want to get into things, long term Trelli is a better site for a capital, so maybe in a few centuries you will want to conquer it and then move in.

What went into the listing of the three possible palace locations? Is it seniority, population, or?

Population, seniority, industry, and all around general importance to the civ.

@Academia Nut besides requiring an aqueduct sooner rather than later, what other downsides to putting the capital in Redshore might we encounter?

Pissing off Valleyhome?
 
Also, if people are interested I'll try and do what I think an ideal palace would be latter?

This would be somewhat realistic, but a much more long term plan that we would slowly work towards.
 
Aside from disturbing the water, there is also a fairly strong current of mysterious source just beneath the surface that is believed to be part of what keeps the water so clean.
Huh...i know we had an option at one point to study this holy site more, so does anyone know what exactly this is?

Yes.
No. On the one hand they are more work to rearrange the area, on the other they are relatively simple structurally.
Good to know, thanks :) How urgent does our admin/land management/etc advisor think putting an aqueduct in Redshore would be if we did choose it for the Palace? Both in terms of "how soon after starting to build palace" and "how soon after finishing palace"?
 
So, what I'm getting then is that Redshore does have some advantages, but in the same time frame it would actually be better/just as advantagous conquering the Trelli and putting our capital THERE.
 
Because an already said Redshore is only better in the extreme long term. He never said it was better in the short term. Also, that travel distance between redshore and valleyhome works both ways. Also also, we're NOT going to be in an infrastructer phase for quite a while due to need at least 1-2 more megaprojects to solve the tax issue. Also x3, losing a vassal is still gonna impact LL(even if it doesn't hit stability), which we do not want. Just because you don't want to be in the lowlands doesn't mean you can ignore the facts here.

Travel distance works both ways, but periphery states need the shorter distance more than the vassals do. We actually administrate them as opposed to the vassals. A shorter distance for them helps immensely compared to with the vassals as it decreases round trip time.

Rulwyna II has an analysis of how our government will collapse. It's Hatriver/Hatvalley -> Greenshore -> North -> Heaven's Hawk/Stallion Tribe -> Western Wall. We already had the Lowland Minors as vassals at that point and they are not a factor in the collapse.

Ehhh... well, the big issue is that Valleyhome will no longer be the defacto capital and thus you will have two non-capital True Cities. You will probably also have to get working on an aqueduct for Redshore fairly quickly as the presence of the palace will start moving the city towards being a True City via sheer overcrowding. However, it probably is a better location for the extreme long term.

Let's actually read what AN said. Redshore is a problem in the midterm because of a need for an aqueduct, but it's not immediate. The quote however, does not state that it is only better in the extreme long term.

@Academia Nut Of the three (provinces, periphery states and the Lowland Minors), how much administrative strain do they cause, from most strain to least strain, and why?
 
So, what I'm getting then is that Redshore does have some advantages, but in the same time frame it would actually be better/just as advantagous conquering the Trelli and putting our capital THERE.

So, a capital is a TEMPORARY thing. It will move if it is advantageous/necessary thing. Frankly, Redshore is not worth the trouble.
 
Rulwyna had thought about how the People might fail from pondering the network she had built up and what she had learned. Hatvalley and Hatriver would go first. They had been part of the People for ages, but they still had a strong Hathatyn cultural component, and the majority of the mines there were operated semi-independently. Just having control over the mines wasn't enough though, you needed a firmer control of the farms to keep the ambitious from thinking that maybe they could arm their own warriors and not have to pay the king any taxes... but the farms had largely been repaired in the river valley systems, and if the locals thought that the king was illegitimate and there was general gygo from overcrowding, disease, and rioting, then they would probably declare themselves independent. From there Greenshore would surely go next - they needed the output of the mines, and they were so far off that if they couldn't believe that the king would support the outlying provinces they would panic and either go independent or join up with the Trelli or something. Without the trade from Greenshore and Hatriver, the south would be stripped of the luxuries that kept the north interested. The Heaven's Hawk would cease settling down and go back to being pure nomads, and the Stallions would probably declare themselves the rightful successors. The Western Wall would either join the Stallions or break off on their own, they couldn't remain under the control of the south with the Stallions in the way.
 
@Academia Nut

Do we have events that regularly pay honor to those died in service to The People?

Does people (kings/officials) visit Warriors' rest to pay respect to the dead?

Do we have wagon trains that travel along a route where people can hop on, like bus service?
 
So, a capital is a TEMPORARY thing. It will move if it is advantageous/necessary thing. Frankly, Redshore is not worth the trouble.
I mean, if we want a capital with sea access, you can't deny putting it on the Bosporus IS the superior location. It's also completely irrelevant to us at the moment.
 
Well, why not do a compromise vote? Build a palace in Valleyhome, but only add on libraries, maybe three or four. That way, we get the immediate Admin benefit to get us out of the crisis, but we can move to Redshore when we need to, and still be getting returns on our investment here with a massive library.
 
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