Paths of Civilization

tryrar · Jul 9, 2017

veekie said:
Slightly. It already has a library and an aqueduct.

Not much else really. No docks, major warehouses are in Redshore, it doesn't actually have it's own Holy Site, it doesn't have it's own mines.

It does have the glassmakers, potters and masons, as well as alchemists.
What it REALLY has is that it's the place the Oligarches and Patricians have always been politicking from to begin with. It's a good place to switch to a Free City TBH

Exactly. It is already our political and cutural center. Why change that for a measly 1 week's travel time?

DragonParadox · Jul 9, 2017

veekie said:
Slightly. It already has a library and an aqueduct.

Not much else really. No docks, major warehouses are in Redshore, it doesn't actually have it's own Holy Site, it doesn't have it's own mines.

It does have the glassmakers, potters and masons, as well as alchemists.
What it REALLY has is that it's the place the Oligarches and Patricians have always been politicking from to begin with. It's a good place to switch to a Free City TBH

Snubbing our millennia old cultural center and giving it the freedom to plot without supervision.... like I said already: no way this can go wrong.

VoidZero · Jul 9, 2017

veekie said:
It does have the glassmakers, potters and masons, as well as alchemists.
What it REALLY has is that it's the place the Oligarches and Patricians have always been politicking from to begin with. It's a good place to switch to a Free City TBH

Are you really sure about making a densely populated industry area with entrenched power families into a free city?

The first free city no less? Not a great example of responsible self governing, o think.

Hangwind · Jul 9, 2017

tryrar said:
It costs us a megaproject just to build it. Moving it to a different city would likely be non-trivial and come with deep political discord as the current capital strongly objects to the move. Building it in that way just so we can move it to a more nebulously convenient location(1 week isn't enough of a difference to fucking matter here) for nebulous future benefits at a nebulous time is a real fucking waste of an action.

We're going to have to move it eventually anyway. It might not be soon, but it will happen. I am trying to plan for that point. So which is more of a waste: a very large library, or a glorified tourist trap?

notgreat · Jul 9, 2017

Assuming the cutoff is 50% again, the required number is 37.5 voters. As such, the current winning vote is
>[69] Library
>[67] Shrine
>[61] Library x2
These are locked in.
>[39] Storehouse
This is just barely in, and in close contention are
[35] Great Hall Expansion
[27] Gardens

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 2858 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 71440-71939]
##### NetTally 1.9.9

[69] Library
[67] Shrine
[61] Library x2
[39] Storehouse
[35] Great Hall Expansion
[27] Gardens
[17] Arsenal
[15] Shrine x2
[9] Great Hall Expansion x2
[8] Storehouse x2
[4] Library x3
[3] Fortifications
[2] Gardens x2
[1] Arsenal x2
[1] Fortifications x3
[1] Fortifications x4
[1] Fortifications x2

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Loc

[39][Loc] Valleyhome
[27][Loc] Redshore
[3][Loc] Sacred Forest

Total No. of Voters: 75

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 2858 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 71440-71960]
##### NetTally 1.9.9

Task: Annex

[69][Annex] Library
[67][Annex] Shrine
[62][Annex] Library x2
[39][Annex] Storehouse
[35][Annex] Great Hall Expansion
[27][Annex] Gardens
[17][Annex] Arsenal

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Aabcehmu
ALanos
Aster
BlueFlamingWings
Citino
Crazy7s1
ETA50M
eternal-potato
kalugin
Katsuragi
maximillian
Nianque
NotAlwaysFanfic
Painfulldarksoul
Spartan492
Spectrum
The Sandman

[15][Annex] Shrine x2

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Chrestomanci
gutza1
keenscythe
Manget
NotAlwaysFanfic
pbluekan
pblur
Raichu1972
ScreenWatcher
sidestory
Spartan492
The Sandman
TheDanishLord
Therealtahu
Yorick's Skull

[9][Annex] Great Hall Expansion x2

DakkaMania
Aster
Crazy7s1
Katsuragi
keenscythe
Killer_Whale
NotAlwaysFanfic
ScreenWatcher
Spartan492

[8][Annex] Storehouse x2

DakkaMania
highs2lows
Katsuragi
keenscythe
Killer_Whale
Nianque
sidestory
VoidZero

[4][Annex] Library x3

Chrestomanci
bluefur87
Killer_Whale
Romv

[3][Annex] Fortifications

Aabcehmu
Nianque
Painfulldarksoul

[2][Annex] Gardens x2

ScreenWatcher
Omegahugger

[1][Annex] Arsenal x2

Nianque

[1][Annex] Fortifications x2

Nianque

[1][Annex] Fortifications x3

Nianque

[1][Annex] Fortifications x4

Nianque

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Loc

[40][Loc] Valleyhome
[26][Loc] Redshore
[3][Loc] Sacred Forest

sidestory
Abby Normal
Omegahugger

Total No. of Voters: 75

Thomasfoolery · Jul 9, 2017

[X] [Loc] Valleyhome

I don't think now is the time to be futzing around trying to juggle actions that a new true city in Redshore would require. So just go with this for now and in the far future maybe we move the capital.

[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2

Even this feels like it might be two slots too many but hopefully they'll be useful enough from the get go to quickly recoup the lost time their construction causes.

Malevolo · Jul 9, 2017

Susano said:
*Byzantion

**Βυζάντιον

I win.

Guile · Jul 9, 2017

No real time to read the arguments (I'm on vacation), but I figured I'd toss in a vote.

[X] [Loc] Valleyhome

I want to do Redshore, in all honesty, but the update made it sound like we'd really need an aqueduct there quick if we do and that's an expense I can't really recommend at this time.

[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Gardens
[X] Storehouse

An additional shrine, garden or storehouse would be attractive and useful, as would housing war artisans, but this is what I consider the important stuff. If Redshore is winning, I'd go ahead and add a doubled library too, since Valleyhome already has one library.

EDIT: A glance at the tally suggests x2 Library is popular, but that + Valleyhome is ridiculous. That means Valleyhome would have a triple library when nowhere else except Sacred Forest has one.

tryrar · Jul 9, 2017

Hangwind said:
We're going to have to move it eventually anyway. It might not be soon, but it will happen. I am trying to plan for that point. So which is more of a waste: a very large library, or a glorified tourist trap?

A very large library, because we don't get any of the other benefits in the meanwhile. Remember, this is thinking in timespan of hundreds of years, because if you think if this goes in valleyhome it's going to get moved in the next couple centuries, you're smoking something really good and I want some.

CatOnTheWeb · Jul 9, 2017

notgreat said:
Assuming the cutoff is 50% again, the required number is 37.5 voters. As such, the current winning vote is
>[69] Library
>[67] Shrine
>[61] Library x2
These are locked in.
>[39] Storehouse
This is just barely in, and in close contention are
[35] Great Hall Expansion
[27] Gardens

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 2858 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 71440-71939]
##### NetTally 1.9.9

[69] Library
[67] Shrine
[61] Library x2
[39] Storehouse
[35] Great Hall Expansion
[27] Gardens
[17] Arsenal
[15] Shrine x2
[9] Great Hall Expansion x2
[8] Storehouse x2
[4] Library x3
[3] Fortifications
[2] Gardens x2
[1] Arsenal x2
[1] Fortifications x3
[1] Fortifications x4
[1] Fortifications x2

Task: Loc

[39][Loc] Valleyhome
[27][Loc] Redshore
[3][Loc] Sacred Forest

Total No. of Voters: 75

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 2858 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 71440-71960]
##### NetTally 1.9.9

[1] Libraryx2

ETA50M

Task: Annex

[69][Annex] Library

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Aabcehmu
Abby Normal
agumentic
ALanos
Andres110
Arbit
Aster
BlueFlamingWings
bluefur87
Candesce
CeBrudras
Chacmon
Chrestomanci
Concho117
Crazy7s1
ctulhuslp
DakkaMania
Dirk93
DocMatoi
DragonParadox
drake_azathoth
eternal-potato
Forgothrax
Ghostdevil
Godwinson
gutza1
HidCyan
highs2lows
kalugin
Katsuragi
keenscythe
Kiba
Killer_Whale
Lilithium
Manget
McLuvin
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
Omegahugger
Painfulldarksoul
pbluekan
pblur
PLP
PrimalShadow
Raichu1972
Rakuhn
redzonejoe
Romv
ScreenWatcher
sidestory
silereamer
Spacegnom
Spartan492
SpeckofStardust
Spectrum
Sugnez
Susano
SyntheticTrevor
The Sandman
TheDanishLord
Therealtahu
ThrawnCA
Timewinders
tryrar
Umi-san
veekie
VoidZero
wingstrike96
Yorick's Skull

[67][Annex] Shrine

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Aabcehmu
Abby Normal
agumentic
ALanos
Andres110
Arbit
Aster
BlueFlamingWings
bluefur87
Candesce
CeBrudras
Chacmon
Chrestomanci
Concho117
Crazy7s1
ctulhuslp
DakkaMania
Dirk93
DocMatoi
DragonParadox
drake_azathoth
ETA50M
eternal-potato
Forgothrax
Godwinson
gutza1
HidCyan
kalugin
Katsuragi
keenscythe
Kiba
Killer_Whale
Lilithium
Manget
maximillian
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
Omegahugger
Painfulldarksoul
pbluekan
pblur
PLP
PrimalShadow
Raichu1972
Rakuhn
redzonejoe
Romv
ScreenWatcher
sidestory
silereamer
Spacegnom
Spartan492
SpeckofStardust
Spectrum
Sugnez
SyntheticTrevor
The Sandman
TheDanishLord
Therealtahu
ThrawnCA
Timewinders
tryrar
Umi-san
veekie
VoidZero
wingstrike96
Yorick's Skull

[61][Annex] Library x2

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Aabcehmu
Abby Normal
agumentic
ALanos
Andres110
Arbit
Aster
BlueFlamingWings
bluefur87
Candesce
CeBrudras
Chacmon
Chrestomanci
Concho117
Crazy7s1
ctulhuslp
DakkaMania
Dirk93
DocMatoi
DragonParadox
Forgothrax
Ghostdevil
Godwinson
gutza1
HidCyan
highs2lows
kalugin
keenscythe
Kiba
Killer_Whale
Manget
McLuvin
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
Painfulldarksoul
pbluekan
pblur
PLP
PrimalShadow
Raichu1972
Rakuhn
Romv
ScreenWatcher
sidestory
silereamer
Spacegnom
Spartan492
SpeckofStardust
Susano
SyntheticTrevor
The Sandman
TheDanishLord
Therealtahu
ThrawnCA
Timewinders
tryrar
Umi-san
veekie
VoidZero
wingstrike96
Yorick's Skull

[39][Annex] Storehouse

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Aabcehmu
Abby Normal
agumentic
ALanos
Aster
Chacmon
Chrestomanci
Concho117
Crazy7s1
ctulhuslp
DakkaMania
Dirk93
DocMatoi
Ghostdevil
gutza1
highs2lows
kalugin
Katsuragi
keenscythe
Killer_Whale
Lilithium
McLuvin
Nianque
Painfulldarksoul
pblur
Raichu1972
redzonejoe
sidestory
SpeckofStardust
Sugnez
Susano
SyntheticTrevor
The Sandman
ThrawnCA
tryrar
veekie
VoidZero
wingstrike96
Yorick's Skull

[35][Annex] Great Hall Expansion

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Aabcehmu
ALanos
Aster
BlueFlamingWings
bluefur87
Chacmon
Chrestomanci
Concho117
Crazy7s1
ctulhuslp
DakkaMania
ETA50M
Ghostdevil
highs2lows
kalugin
Katsuragi
keenscythe
Killer_Whale
maximillian
McLuvin
NotAlwaysFanfic
Omegahugger
Painfulldarksoul
PLP
Raichu1972
redzonejoe
ScreenWatcher
sidestory
silereamer
Spartan492
Spectrum
SyntheticTrevor
The Sandman
Therealtahu
Yorick's Skull

[27][Annex] Gardens

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Aabcehmu
ALanos
Arbit
Aster
BlueFlamingWings
bluefur87
Chrestomanci
Crazy7s1
Dirk93
DocMatoi
kalugin
Katsuragi
maximillian
NotAlwaysFanfic
Omegahugger
Painfulldarksoul
PLP
Romv
ScreenWatcher
sidestory
silereamer
Spartan492
Spectrum
Sugnez
The Sandman
veekie
wingstrike96

[17][Annex] Arsenal

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Aabcehmu
ALanos
Aster
BlueFlamingWings
Citino
Crazy7s1
ETA50M
eternal-potato
kalugin
Katsuragi
maximillian
Nianque
NotAlwaysFanfic
Painfulldarksoul
Spartan492
Spectrum
The Sandman

[15][Annex] Shrine x2

Plan: ◈Don't Count on the Future to Fix It
Chrestomanci
gutza1
keenscythe
Manget
NotAlwaysFanfic
pbluekan
pblur
Raichu1972
ScreenWatcher
sidestory
Spartan492
The Sandman
TheDanishLord
Therealtahu
Yorick's Skull

[9][Annex] Great Hall Expansion x2

DakkaMania
Aster
Crazy7s1
Katsuragi
keenscythe
Killer_Whale
NotAlwaysFanfic
ScreenWatcher
Spartan492

[8][Annex] Storehouse x2

DakkaMania
highs2lows
Katsuragi
keenscythe
Killer_Whale
Nianque
sidestory
VoidZero

[4][Annex] Library x3

Chrestomanci
bluefur87
Killer_Whale
Romv

[3][Annex] Fortifications

Aabcehmu
Nianque
Painfulldarksoul

[2][Annex] Gardens x2

ScreenWatcher
Omegahugger

[1][Annex] Arsenal x2

Nianque

[1][Annex] Fortifications x2

Nianque

[1][Annex] Fortifications x3

Nianque

[1][Annex] Fortifications x4

Nianque

Task: Loc

[40][Loc] Valleyhome

Chrestomanci
Abby Normal
agumentic
ALanos
Arbit
BlueFlamingWings
bluefur87
Candesce
Concho117
Crazy7s1
Dirk93
DocMatoi
DragonParadox
eternal-potato
Forgothrax
Ghostdevil
gutza1
HidCyan
highs2lows
kalugin
Katsuragi
maximillian
McLuvin
notgreat
pbluekan
pblur
PrimalShadow
Raichu1972
Rakuhn
ScreenWatcher
Spacegnom
Spartan492
SpeckofStardust
Susano
ThrawnCA
Timewinders
tryrar
Umi-san
VoidZero
Yorick's Skull

[26][Loc] Redshore

Aabcehmu
Aster
Athanor
Chacmon
ctulhuslp
DakkaMania
drake_azathoth
ETA50M
Godwinson
keenscythe
Kiba
Killer_Whale
Lilithium
Manget
minerva-n-memes
NotAlwaysFanfic
Painfulldarksoul
PLP
Romv
Spectrum
Sugnez
SyntheticTrevor
TheDanishLord
Therealtahu
veekie
wingstrike96

[3][Loc] Sacred Forest

sidestory
Abby Normal
Omegahugger

Total No. of Voters: 75

I think your vote is wrong, as the most recent SV tally says that Great Hall has 37.

maximillian · Jul 9, 2017

Susano said:
*Byzantion

Byzanz as the German name for it is also acceptable.

The aquaduct being the big thing, of course. Redshore is not a True City, and that's a problem.

That's a feature, not a bug. We want a balance of power between various faction at courts, not a king who is left alone to rule as he/she pleases.

***بيزنطة

The Sandman · Jul 9, 2017

Eh, in the long run if we move the capital from Valleyhome we can turn the old Palace site into the basis for a university.

I still prefer Redshore, but I'm not remotely as certain about it as I am that we need to build a full palace now or accept we'll never get around to it.

God, I hope one of the consequences of improved administration is that we get another action. Right now there's just way too much that needs doing and not enough capacity to do it.

Umi-san · Jul 9, 2017

NotAlwaysFanfic said:
And we can put Place to the Stars (although we're never going to build it are we? ) in Horse Valley.

we just need to push for it more strongly, imo. We might have room after the law gets finished.

Though I'd imagine that by that point problems will arise with either the lowlands (assuming we don't turn the lowland vassal into the march), the nomads (assuming we don't make another march after integrating the ST), or the Trell (assuming we don't make a trading post near them to secure a better position for crushing them).

Ideally what is going to happen is something like:
We start the palace -> 2 turns from now the TH give in and hire our merc company -> Palace finishes, we roll it into the Census -> We absorb the ST -> the SP give in, the nomads attack the north and make us help the no-longer-independent-ST -> We absorb the Lowland Vassal and turn them into a March while fighting in the north w/ our other main -> The Census finishes, we roll it into the law while fighting in the north -> We start a Trell Trade Post while fighting in the north -> The nomads go away, we absorb Hatriver -> We start a March in the north -> The Lowlands attack our march, we have to help them -> But we have enough action room to start on the Dam so that we can start on the river to the lowlands -> The lowlands stfu, the north becomes troublesome -> We finish the Dam, start the canal to the lowlands -> The nomads have a horde of horseback archers that attack our northern provinces -> We spend 6 turns fighting them off and finishing the lowland canal -> We start on the Place of the Stars -> The Trell become irritated with us because our Trade Posts have become too strong -> We finish the Place and start some docks so that we can invade them -> The lowlands attack our march -> The nomads attack our march -> the Trell attack our trade post

etc.

Noxious · Jul 9, 2017

[X] [Loc] Redshore

[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Library
[X] Library 2x
[X] Shrine
[X] Storehouse

Da Boyz · Jul 9, 2017

[X] [Loc] Valleyhome
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Gardens

Let's get this done with a minimum of fanfare. We still need to do the Census, Integrate the Stallions and rework the Law after all.

Umi-san · Jul 9, 2017

veekie said:
Slightly. It already has a library and an aqueduct.

Not much else really. No docks, major warehouses are in Redshore, it doesn't actually have it's own Holy Site, it doesn't have it's own mines.

It does have the glassmakers, potters and masons, as well as alchemists.
What it REALLY has is that it's the place the Oligarches and Patricians have always been politicking from to begin with. It's a good place to switch to a Free City TBH

it has its own holy site, tho not in the city proper I guess
it has a major dock iirc, one was built in it
it's the major shipping center of our nation, though Greenriver is highly competitive

pbluekan · Jul 9, 2017

veekie said:
We do have a habit of buying into what the Valleyhome Oligarches believe rather than what's actually going on.

Uh, same time frame is strongly contested.

Valleyhome as it is has a <1 week transit for the following provinces:
-Valleyhome
-Redhill
-Sacred Forest
-Redshore

Redshore as it is has a <1 week transit for the following provinces:
-Valleyhome
-Sacred Forest
-Northshore
-Southshore
-Black River
-Hatriver

Valleyhome is basically politically convenient, but logistics strongly favor Redshore, because it's far easier to administrate our settlements from there.
Valleyhome isn't even that good for lowlands because they lack river continuity, for that you want a capital below the Cataracts.

Where do you get those travel times to Redshore? And either way, I really doubt that some extra time on the road, likely stopping at all three major holy sites on the way, is such a hardship that it will drastically change our relations with our provinces. That week simply doesn't really matter on timescales of 15-20 years.

You keep saying it is politically convenient, but don't you think there's a reason for it beyond the oligarchs being lazy? Moving the entire administration, building infrastructure for a new city, dealing with overcrowding issues, dealing with provincial friction. This is complicated shit for a time when we are under administrative and economic pressures. Hell, the guys doing the planing now won't even be sitting when it is finished.

Remember that whole tax thing that we tried to push through that was too complicated and failed? This feels like that. We have so much shit going on that trying to uproot a 1700 year old administration seems like a shit idea. Keep in mind, we will have red centralization while we do this and we will have it without the buffer of a three hero admin team.

veekie · Jul 9, 2017

DragonParadox said:
So you are saying the Valeyhome oligarchs do not know their own mind? For all political intents and purposes they are Valleyhome.

We elected the nomad king because the Valleyhome Oligarches were afraid of one of their own would take over the place. That's one example.

They have a skewed view of things because Valleyhome isn't really well connected. They don't see the overall picture, they see the politics of a large but geographically isolated city and assume that this is the same everywhere.

pbluekan said:
Fair point that the journey will shorten up, but I think a weeks travel time is likely the most minor of quibbles our outlying provinces have with us. I think they can deal with it so we don't have to uproot a millennia old capital and build a new city. The fact that Valleyhome is still the obvious choice for all of our advisors, subchiefs, and planners who are the ones who actually do the traveling should say something about it, no?

The real advantage for Redshore is the fact that it is on the ocean and has acted as a trade hub for centuries. If Valleyhome were much farther way than it is, or there had been any sort of movement of administrative duties towards Redshore in the past, I would agree with you.

Administrative centers have changed often and at little fuss historically.

The distance is a multiplier on all the issues of administration. Speaking as someone working in logistics, it's VERY easy to underestimate the sheer costs of adding even a week's travel to turnaround times of information. That's two weeks to make decisions like "How much should the grain quota this season be?"

Think about that. If the weather is shitty in Northshore, the Palace will learn about it 2 weeks after the weather turns. Then you add another week for the messages to be filtered by priority, allowing for clerk and middle managerb iases. They will then decide based on that information, and send a messenger from Valleyhome to Northshore to lower quotas for this harvest. The messenger arrives 5 weeks after the weather goes sour...oh look it's already nearly the harvest. Now the Northshore chiefs will be bitching about having to adjust tool and labor allocations on so little time.

THEN you have the messengers going to the Stallion Tribes, Stonepen, Redshore and Black River to increase quotas, and ship extra grain over to Northshore to help them tide over the bad harvest, which all have to be sorted out before anyone is short enough to starve.

THEN you factor in the transit points, where ocean ships switch to longships, and then switch to wagons. Each switch requires clerks at the transit points to record and organize what is being moved, to make sure nothing had gone missing, and to double check that nobody had taken it on their own initiative to swap out the messages or forge the documents. The increase in administrative difficulty by distance and modes of transport is exponential, no linear.

That is part of the admin issues at present. Shaving off a week of travel is shaving off at least 3 weeks of response time and overhead.
The Palace breathes information. It's the lifeblood of the administration.

PrimalShadow · Jul 9, 2017

Abby Normal said:
I'm certainly not mad that double library is winning, and the admin help is a big part of that; i'm just skeptical that the extra mysticism refund is, in and of itself, actually worth as much as some people are saying it is; with soon to be maxed mysticism and 7 soon to be 8 art (that should be 9 soon to be 10 if i'm not missing something*) it's not *urgent* in my opinion, since we should have enough to make it through the Law either way

We are going to burn through our current art with the palace. If we lose the Mysticism->Art drip for the census, we will be sitting at functionally zero art, which means we can't use it for Proclaim Glory, nor for any of the other art-consuming actions.

Also. I'm not sure if you remember, but the last time we did The Law, it was -1 Art and Mysticism per action. So we really want to have a reserve of art by the time we start, which means NOT burning Mysticism (and therefore Art) with the census.

notgreat · Jul 9, 2017

NotAlwaysFanfic said:
I think your vote is wrong, as the most recent SV tally says that Great Hall has 37.

I removed my vote for the Great Hall when it was changed such that it did not cost more extra to add on later, and Umi-san's vote is delegated to me so it was brought along as well.

Neptune · Jul 9, 2017

[X] [Loc] Valleyhome
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2

An easy location vote for me, as it's only in the extreme long term that Redshore becomes arguably the best option. However, in the extreme long term our civilization would have changed drastically and ideally expanded; and in such a case Trelli's not-Constantiople/Istanbul would be superior if you're going to Redshore for sea access. Thus due to Valleyhome having been the capital for centuries, with all the infrastructural and organizational build up - and due to not wanting a third true city when we're suffering administratively - it wins out.

For the annexes; we're in several wars that could increase in number, and we have several crisis's happening, and soon environmental disruption is going to go away and our neighbours are going to come back stronger. Thus stick to the basics and just get the three annexes; shrine as there are negatives if it's not taken, and double library for the administrative improvements and because we'll actually need it once the census is done due to the amount of information it'll generate. It also helps pay for the census with an additional mysticism refund.

I was tempted by a garden and great hall expansion, but time limitations matter too much. If @Academia Nut had us get several benefits of the Palace while under construction I'd be tempted though, as historically buildings were occupied once the basic structures were in place and expanded and were put to use. Versailles comes to mind as the obvious example.

Storehouses I don't think are necessary for our Palace given our civilization, as a great deal of their value in our history was due to the various cultures being decentralized, so a central reserve of goods gave the King greater influence and power over his subjects. However, we've already centralized that under the King's authority so the benefits outside of potential synergy with the other options should realistically be minor in our current situation, as a dedicated storehouses should be better and Valleyhome should have plenty of those given it's size.

Umi-san · Jul 9, 2017

notgreat said:
I removed my vote for the Great Hall when it was changed such that it did not cost more extra to add on later, and Umi-san's vote is delegated to me so it was brought along as well.

personally I still want the Great Hall X-pack + Garden, but we can always do those as a pair later. Similarly, we can do the Shrine + Arsenal together.

Umi-san · Jul 9, 2017

veekie said:
The distance is a multiplier on all the issues of administration. Speaking as someone working in logistics, it's VERY easy to underestimate the sheer costs of adding even a week's travel to turnaround times of information. That's two weeks to make decisions like "How much should the grain quota this season be?"

two weeks at a slow langorous walk

DragonParadox · Jul 9, 2017

veekie said:
We elected the nomad king because the Valleyhome Oligarches were afraid of one of their own would take over the place. That's one example.

They have a skewed view of things because Valleyhome isn't really well connected. They don't see the overall picture, they see the politics of a large but geographically isolated city and assume that this is the same everywhere.

None of this addresses my point. If the Valleyhome oligarchs says Valleyhome will be pissed by moving the capital then so it will be because politically they are Vallyehome.

The Sandman · Jul 9, 2017

Also, putting the Palace in Redshore before it becomes a True City lets us integrate it more thoroughly into the resulting urban area, with the city actually designed to support the needs of governance first.

...unless we intend to build the Palace in Lower Valleyhome, I suppose.

Paths of Civilization

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

American Monarchist

Having a really great time right now

Civilised Sheep

So Zetta Slowpoke

Procrastinating.

An excellent host

The Cutest Apocalypse.

Procrastinating.

Somethin's Fucky ...

Procrastinating.

Procrastinating.

So Zetta Slowpoke