We finish it without additional annexes. Just the Great Hall and the Living Rooms that automatically come with it. We need to advance to Census and Law II as quickly as possible. Waiting that out will hurt us more than the extra costs for having the Palace be extended later on.

@pblur
"Strawmen". Right.
Though you're right on which river Valleyhome sits.
....the whole point of the palace(besides the Law II MP) is that it'll help with the admin strain. Adding at least a single library should improve on that, and if we can get it to count as an actual library with its mysticism refund, we can essentially make the census free. This is why most plans have 2x library as a baseline.
 
Nah, canal used up a lot of small rivers which fell into Redshore river and is based on them; it does not connect to Valleyhome river.
read above

also, those "small rivers" are different from the smaller river I was talking about

@pblur 90% certain everyone thought you meant seaside capital not just "accessible via river." At the least, I did.
 
....the whole point of the palace(besides the Law II MP) is that it'll help with the admin strain. Adding at least a single library should improve on that, and if we can get it to count as an actual library with its mysticism refund, we can essentially make the census free. This is why most plans have 2x library as a baseline.
And my baseline is that plus one storehouse (because of my reading that storehouses are also fundamentally admin annexes).
 
No, it is not. Really, it is just not, I asked AN about it once because I thought so too because it would make logistics so much better.


It was for logistical purposes though.
Like, it received grain from all the empire specifically because of Tiber, so...it was not strictly seashore, but it should count, IMO.
It's like with London: technically, it was not seashore city, but it probably is one of the examples of seashore trading capital powerhouse because of the Thames.
So...if London is counted as seashore trading captial, than Rome probably should be too.
And if your definition excludes London from the list of seashore trading powerhouse capitals, this is one hell of weird definition.



Ehh.
Maritime transportation is literally orders of magnitude more cheap (10-100 times depending on time period, IIRC, with 10 being exteremely low estimate; we probably are at ~30-80 times cheaper, I assume) than groundslogging, and it always was this way. So there is a world of difference between "we need to do rest of the road by the road" and "we can just sail the barge into the city and load off the cargo", logistics-wise.
Yeah, resupply of the city will always be mainly by road(unless coming from the south by the river), but messengers aren't bound by such hassles, and what we're mainly concerned with is connectivity for admin purposes, which isn't supply heavy. So sea access isn't as important administratively, though it doesn't hurt.

The real issue is we simply can't afford to add all the rest of the stuff to make Redshore a proper True City to our pile of things to do in the near term, which means it's not a good idea to put the capital there, despite how handy sea access would be.
 
Given just how amazingly cheaper riverine and sea transportation is (~15-20 times is the most conservative estimate given lack of serious bulk trade?) - yes, a fucking disaster for traders.
IIRC we didn't connect the rivers because we worried about lowering the flow of the one valleyhome sat on?

We might get a chance to fix this/update the canal at some point. I'd imagine this would come after we do the Dam. It seems narratively apt.
 
Yeah. Don't see it. Don't like the image it presents.


Less that and more I don't like concentrating power even further in the hands of an individual or a select group. Same thing I've always argued against. It's why I don't like your push for feudalism.



But that's the very opposite of concentrated power!! Hell that's the whole reason* am in favour of it, it splits and spreads power to a ludicrous degree.


I mean I have steadily opposed the centralization of power since the first Baaaaa!






*OK that as well as absolute adoration of the culture, romanticism, and it being the only ideologically appealing system prior to industrialization. And sheep are naturally averse to buecracy.
 
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I think it's probably more worthwhile to dig another canal to connect valleyhome to the black sea later (we'll eventually have the technology) than it is to build a palace in redshore now.
 
Yeah. Don't see it. Don't like the image it presents.
Yes. God forbid the king, elected head of government, has a monopoly on force. God forbid the King, elected head of government- has the armies answer to him directly.

This feels more absurd than all the other shit people (myself included) are slinging around right now. Consolidating the military as tied to the sole province of the central authority is huge. I get this thread has some fixation on the notion of balancing power- but this is ridiculous.
 
read above

also, those "small rivers" are different from the smaller river I was talking about

@pblur 90% certain everyone thought you meant seaside capital not just "accessible via river." At the least, I did.
I don't mean accessible via river. What I meant was you can launch sea boats from it. So at the end of the Nile, for instance, has sea access even though it's not seaside. Rome counts because its surrounding areas are on the sea (and it essentially has a suburb with a port.) Macedon's capital had a navigable inlet from the sea. A huge river like the Thames I'd also count.

And so on. It doesn't have to literally be on the sea for you to be able to launch sea ships from it.
 
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This difference? It's the definition of a strawman. Possibly accidental. *shrug* I can give benefit of doubt.
I see. Well, thanks for replying and explaining. Of course, this goes into what counts as sea access. I concede Rome probably would have to count, but the various Chinese and Indian empires often had their capital very deep in-land. Still usually at a river, which would flow into the sea at a point of their control, so the point of dispute could then be if that counts as "sea access", but eh... that goes into semantics then...

....the whole point of the palace(besides the Law II MP) is that it'll help with the admin strain. Adding at least a single library should improve on that, and if we can get it to count as an actual library with its mysticism refund, we can essentially make the census free. This is why most plans have 2x library as a baseline.
Hm, if that works I would be willing to vote for 2x library. But only that.

In any case, the Palace WILL help with the administration strain. Now we're just thinking about what additional shinies to grab to get additional bonuses. However, we should instead be focusing on getting to Law II, and then getting it completed, ASAP. If 2x library can help in that, great. But anything else will just have to wait.
 
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Palace plans
[X][Main] Grand Palace
[X][Main] Grand Palace x2
[X] [Secondary] Expand Economy

Provinces – [Main] War Mission – Support Lowlanders, [Sec] More Blackbirds, [Sec] More Carrion Eaters, [Sec] Expand Econ
Stallions – [Main] Build Temple – Dragon Graveyard, [Main] Expand Econ
Western – [Main] New Settlement, [Main] Build Wall, [Sec] Expand Forests, [Sec] Expand Econ, [Sec] Survey
Greenshore – [Main] Trade Mission – Trelli, [Main] Aqueduct (4/8)
Hatvalley – [Main] New Settlement, [Main] Survey
Heaven's Hawk – [Main] New Settlement, [Main] Watchtowers
Lowland Minors – [Main] War Mission – Swamp Folk, [Main] New Trails

Within the libraries of the People, there are several points of wisdom that have been enshrined as things that all leaders should remember for the future. One of those was "Bad things happen, deal with them".

Well, bad things were happening in the lowlands, and only the Red Banner had managed to keep the situation from completely deteriorating. Unfortunately, when the king had sent the heir to look over the situation, it had turned sour with unpleasant quickness. Apparently the Thunder Horse had been willing to mark the Tocholli River as their eastern border for the time being and had even offered to potentially hire the services of the Red Banner for dealing with the Swamp Folk, who they were also fighting with, but the heir had put his foot in his mouth and apparently then tried his damnedest to chew it off. What could have been a potential settlement between the two groups to ease tensions had turned into the Thunder Horse deciding to go at it further just because of how insulted they were.

Ugh... a new heir would need to be elected after that incident, but the last election had already been a political knife fight, which was why they had ended up with a semi-incompetent compromise candidate.

Frankly, half the reason that they were drawing up the plans for a new palace complex was that the current residence of the king was too small to hold all of the important people, their advisors, the people to keep all of those people fed and clean when they were spending the whole day arguing with each other, and going elsewhere was eating up administrative time with unnecessary walking for all involved. Just having a bigger residence that could house everyone and keep them close together and close to administrative experts would massively ease the headaches of governance. However, the council arguments over the design and location of the palace were already quite intense.

For placement, the big argument was where to put the new palace. While Valleyhome was obvious, the other two candidates were Sacred Forest and Redshore. Given the pilgrimages of shamans and commoners to the temple in Sacred Forest, there were many who felt that it was already the heart of the People, and it had the connections to also serve as a significant center of government. Redshore, while not quite as grand or urban as the larger Valleyhome or Sacred Forest, had always been a major center of trade and industry, and given its access to the sea was probably the easiest for the majority of provinces to get delegates to. Also, while its geography meant that getting proper amounts of water to allow it to really expand remained a tricky proposition, once an aqueduct was put in it would have the best and easiest drainage of them all. Of course, everyone had their own opinion on the politics of it all, and the argumentation could get pretty vicious at times.

While the where was a fairly major question, perhaps even bigger was the question of what. Some of the plans that were being talked about by the architects and builders were quite ambitious, and that had many on the council worried about how they were going to pay for everything if some of the designs were implemented. Also, the bigger the whole thing was the longer it would take to build, and if they were going to be displacing many to have a good chunk of urban territory they would really want to settle design quickly. So far the smallest and most modest designs that seemed to have everything that they needed had a complex of residences for the king, the council, administrators to do all the business of government, guest rooms for visiting dignitaries and provincial chiefs, room for all of the family of the above, and room for all the support staff to keep all of the above from starving and/or dying of disease in their own filth. It was practically a small city just with that! Then there would be a large chamber set aside where the king could meet with everyone in peace and comfort and they could do the work of the kingdom properly. There would of course be the display of artwork and civic relics to remind the People and visitors of the power and importance of the place. Finally there would be an annex where a shrine to the gods would be kept, meaning that the king could get the minor religious duties out of the way without having to leave the palace - although there were a few proposals that omitted the shrine in favour of something else, typically a library.

Beyond that, the proposals tended to attach further annexes upon the palace, making it bigger and giving further capabilities. Some were just modest extensions of what was already going on, others were...

Well, there was a proposal to turn the palace into a library that had twice as much storage space as the existing libraries put together, pretty clearly put forth by an extremely overworked clerk. There was another proposal by someone paranoid about what Phygrif the Conqueror had done to Xohyr returning to bite them by making the palace into a near mountain of stone walls. Still, the various extensions and the like were easy to categorize.

First, the Great Hall could be extended, made larger to accommodate more visitors, and to also appear more impressive to outsiders. Some proposals suggested making it big enough to serve as something of a community focus point, where a significant fraction of the populace could attend during major festivals, although that was probably overkill.

Second was extending out the shrine, making it into a proper temple to the gods, probably with Mathulmyn as the patron of the temple itself and Fythhagyna and Crow included somewhere in a prominent but not central role. Further proposals would extend it out further and increase the amount of religious authority of the palace, and thus the king. It would also increase the king's access to skilled advisors on spiritual matters.

Third, and almost certainly included somewhere, was a library annex. While the smallest proposals just made it a general administrative storage area and reference library for the king and advisors, larger proposals expanded it out to be at least as large as the library already crammed into Valleyhome or as part of the temple in Sacred Forest, with a few proposals where the palace was more library than palace! Given all the writing the government generated, a library was probably a necessity, and the bigger the more important records could be kept on immediate hand for the king to have easy access to.

Fourth was the proposal for garden complexes. These were frequently courtyards, often extensions of the Great Hall, and they were there for the purposes of beauty, health, and spiritual strength. There would probably be a few small gardens in quiet spots no matter the design chosen, but these proposals were significant efforts. Many priests proposed that gardens be included in order to ensure that the palace remained connected to nature, and also to ensure an at-hand supply of important plants that could be grown there.

Fifth were storehouses. The king's residence was already close to a number of central storehouses and granaries so it made sense, and there would of course be internal stores for the palace's consumption, but these proposals were for major areas to do nothing but store critical goods and administer their collection and distribution. These would certainly help with administration purposes, and help the city if it were ever cut off from food supplies by disaster or war.

Sixth were proposals to have artisans brought in to live within the palace, producing warrior goods. This would ensure that the king would have the best equipment available and that the best warriors would always come to the palace for their gear, rather than potentially going elsewhere. Many of the association members also suggested that having such an annex would also help tie the king more closely to the artisans by having them live in association with each other.

Finally, there were walls. While there would have to be some degree of separation between the palace and the rest of the city for the purposes of security, some proposals went further, suggesting walls like those of city fortifications, or even walls of greater height and thickness than in any city yet built! While there was certainly a point of diminishing returns, especially if the walls effectively cut the palace off from the city and did not include extensive internal stores or its own arsenal, perhaps some additional defences would help against less spectacular threats than armies.

Oh, and of course, there were the interactions that might emerge from having different annexes with each other. An arsenal, stores, and fortification all together would make the palace an impressive internal hard point. Especially large great halls that lead in part to gardens had the potential to be quite impressive, and what wonders might a large library, temple, and arsenal produce when all in close association with each other and with access to the king? It was a complex question with many proposals that the king and council would have to sort out.

Location
[] [Loc] Valleyhome
[] [Loc] Sacred Forest
[] [Loc] Redshore

Choose annexes, up to 8. All can be repeated for extra effect, and there can be special effects from certain combinations. Each annex after the first adds 1 additional action to the project. Not including at least one shrine annex will have political and religious implications
[] Great Hall Expansion
[] Shrine
[] Library
[] Gardens
[] Storehouse
[] Arsenal
[] Fortifications

AN: Proper mid-turn actions next update, this will be complex enough as it is
 
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I don't mean accessible via river. What I meant was you can launch sea boats from it. So at the end of the Nile, for instance, has sea access even though it's not seaside. Rome counts because its surrounding areas are on the sea (and it essentially has a suburb with a port.) Macedon's capital had a navigable inlet from the sea.

And so on. It doesn't have to literally be on the sea for you to be able to launch sea ships from it.
But that's still not a huge mark against, considering the connectivity between Redshore and Valleyhome is only going to rise.

Expanding the canal, wagonways, dedicated courier posts- Redshore is so close to Valleyhome that it can fairly easily assert near the same amount of influence. I mean, god forbid it takes a few days for our emissaries/collectors to get to the port in order to ship off to the North/wherever.
 
Please try to not bandwagon early. This is a really complicated decision.

Location

[X] [Loc] Valleyhome
[X] [Loc] Sacred Forest
[X] [Loc] Redshore

Choose annexes, up to 8. All can be repeated for extra effect, and there can be special effects from certain combinations. Each annex adds 1 additional action to the project. Not including at least one shrine annex will have political and religious implications
[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Gardens
[X] Storehouse
[X] Arsenal
[X] Fortifications
 
But that's the very opposite of concentrated power!! Hell that's the whole reason* am in favour of it, it splits and spreads power to a ludicrous degree.
Under a feudalism system power is pretty fucking concentrated in the hands of a relatively sparse collection of elites. The issue is that they basically have complete autonomy. They don't answer to anyone. Even their direct overlord is little more than a secondary concern.

adoration of the culture, romanticism

George Martin may have exaggerated a lot of things, but feudalism breeds a lot of that.
 
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