Still doesn't change my assertion that Redshore is the better choice longterm. I never attacked people for picking Valleyhome but people left and right are jumping at me for saying Redshore is our better longterm prospect and it keeps our subordinates happy.
They're not attacking you. I'm not either. You have put up a point for debate. I'm picking apart your argument.

Yes, as per AN Redshore is the choice in "extreme long term." Judging by how things usually flow in this quest, that could be anywhere from 15 to 30 turns from now. By that point any benefit could be absolutely minimal. Hell, it already is. Valleyhome is a week away at walking pace. That's like 100miles(160 kilometers).

What about right now? We know that the centralization tolerance problems will start before the palace is truly built, which may just cause a crash all on its own, as that would make cent 4 red, and we know that anything below 3 will cause some severe administrative problems.

There is no basis to think that Redshore versus Valleyhome would be preferable to our periphery states. The distance between the two just doesn't matter when you're already taking 4 months out for travel. I rather think they would be pissed at us developing the infrastructure for another southern city when we really didn't need to or could have built up one of their own.
 
At least one level is ESSENTIAL to making a Command Economy sustainable, but this depends on location. Its far less useful in Valleyhome than in Redshore.
Still not getting how storerooms are so essential, maybe Veekie can explain it. They're something that already exists and are to be built in one place to store something that isn't actually moved very far in this time period. They're nice, I know, but still.
 
Or it's age.

All three are the first settlements we had. Then next oldest is Lower Valleyhome which is their junior by something like 700 years.
they were only 3 or so threadmarks apart. Against the sea -> a first contact

Yeah, just to be sure i'm getting my point across, i dont think its a bad choice in any respect, even if it didn't also help admin woes. I just don't think that getting the refund is in any way essential, and i value an action now, and an econ we're short on, over 4-6 more mysticism later when we're already doing pretty well on that, especially given how many things we have vying for our time, econ, and actions right now
*shrug* Econ is important, but we save more actions and econ by ensuring a steady flow of mysticism and thus art, which will be used on The Law project.

Literally right now, we only have the war and the tax crisis (palace) vying for our actions. The war is handled by our provinces, at present.
In, say, three turns the north may again become unhappy. I would expect that by this time the war will diminish, assuming the HK don't build up quickly.
 
Crisis resolution then:
-Redshore to bind the largest number of provinces together. Reminder that Hathatyn and Western Wall Colonies will be spawning their own breakaway events soon.
-Shrine to avoid causing problems.
-Two levels of library, unless you want 'hilarity' to ensue from the Census. Seriously, don't underestimate how much bookkeeping is needed to USE it.
-One level of storehouse to grease the command economy.
-One level of Garden I'm slightly more iffy on, but it's culturally important for us that the king is tied to nature.

One big problem with Redshore is that we'll be forced to build an aqueduct so that it becomes a True City. We can't afford 3 True Cities.
 
They're not attacking you. I'm not either. You have put up a point for debate. I'm picking apart your argument.

Yes, as per AN Redshore is the choice in "extreme long term." Judging by how things usually flow in this quest, that could be anywhere from 15 to 30 turns from now. By that point any benefit could be absolutely minimal. Hell, it already is. Valleyhome is a week away at walking pace. That's like 100miles(160 kilometers).

What about right now? We know that the centralization tolerance problems will start before the palace is truly built, which may just cause a crash all on its own, as that would make cent 4 red, and we know that anything below 3 will cause some severe administrative problems.

There is no basis to think that Redshore versus Valleyhome would be preferable to our periphery states. The distance between the two just doesn't matter when you're already taking 4 months out for travel. I rather think they would be pissed at us developing the infrastructure for another southern city when we really didn't need to or could have built up one of their own.
The basis is our provinces and peripheries stayws pushing for Redshore, its literally in the update. Our periphery states have constantly built docks and boats to stay connected to us and find Redshore to be much easier to send their delegates to. Its also easier for Hatvally to travel to Redshore then through the mountains to Valleyhome. I'm picking Redshore and expanded greay hall for the synergy it will provide, our provinces and subordinates sending delegates and becoming a part of the buearucratic process is excellent and will head off any more independence movements hence better long term.
 
The Palace has always been about the administrative strain part of the problem, not the cultural rift part.
Same thing here. Problem is distance to heart of the empire.
This distance is far shorter in Redshore than in Valleyhome. Reminder that the Western Wall is big enough to hit the action cap on provinces already. Valleyhome increases the admin load to integrate Western Wall and Hathatyn Colony
Also enhances festivals/public events, and is hard to add on afterwards.

Also hard to add on afterwards.



It really isn't required.
Hard to add afterwards is true for all, but we also can't afford the resources and don't expect to make a lot of use of Great Hall beyond the basic free level based on past actions. We still need to do the Census and the Law to avoid imploding.

And having the palace contain storehouses is integral to the iron age palace economy, where goods use the palace as an exchange nexus for ease of accounting. It reduces the difficulty of administration when the clerks only have to make the rounds between the palace stores and the palace library to record shipments, and when you can use the same paths for cargo and messengers.

Anyway as I said before, feeling ill so not really going to be doing the usual back and forth.
 
Alright, first I'd like to point out something. If we look at our ability to expand the Sacred Forest Temple, we can see it would cost substantially more than simply building a new temple. We can infer from this that building bigger and grander things is much more costly than building new things.

What we should focus on, then, setting our options up to be deeper rather than broad. Also, based on what we all want in general, we're basically making a city with this, as we'd understand it in modern times. Lots of facilities to support a great deal of functions, self contained stores, defenses, specific buildings and jobs to support them. It's not critically important, but we should definitely keep in mind that we're basically making a specialized city. We also need to keep in mind some options take up more physical room than others.

So, with the concept of going deeper and paying attention to options that would take more land, what should we focus on?

Great Hall gives us a community center, at it's larger states we start turning it into more of a market square than anything else. This is one of the 'large' options. It will take up a substantial amount of room as we make it bigger, and we're probably looking at something along the lines of 2 expansions to get us to a small-moderately sized community gathering center. Otherwise it increases the strength of our governments diplomacy values.

Second is the shrine. We're required to get at least one expansion if we want to keep our religion happy, and we gain an extra temple and increase pilgrimage power if we do that. Further expansion is probably not something we actually desperately want, as we start drawing power away from Sacred Forest and put the new center of religion in Valleyhome. Well, if we want to keep religion somewhat decentralized or separate from government we don't want to do it.

Third is the library. We definitely want to make this a notable feature, as it addresses many of the issues we are building the palace for in the first place. Two is needed for an extra library, which we will want for the census, more will start making our government office a repository for knowledge, which is very... tempting. There may be a slight improvement to education locked behind here, though I may be biased there due to looking for that to happen in the palace in general.

Fourth is the Gardens. This is one of the largest parts of the palace in terms of land use, and probably the cornerstone behind our culture. Getting more gardens increases our divine stewards value itself, and starts giving us a much more distinct cultural identity. The Ymaryn will be more proud of being Ymaryn. The fact this is only in one location, though, may decrease the effect to some extent. I expect a big enough garden to cause a different kind of pilgrimage though.

Fifth is storehouses, which are mostly for disaster insulation. We don't need them now, but then again disaster insulation is always the sort of thing where by the time you need it, it's too late. The central storing of goods is said to ease administrative burdening, but the amount is honestly not going to be by a truly noticeable degree. It will take up some room, but probably not by a huge amount.

Sixth is the Arsenal. It will start centralizing our military and actually forming an army under the King. This is critical for dealing with our martial problems, and likely to advance tech if we increase it enough.

Fortifications are absolutely needed, but we're not looking at a situation where we should increase them to an absurd level in the near future. Still, having your capital be hard to breach is of immense importance and we should definitely try to get it sometime.

So, to put this in an easier to digest format.

Great Hall: +Diplomacy, +Community
Shrine: ++Religion
Library: ++General Administration
Gardens: +Culture, +Diplomacy
Storehouse: ++Disaster Administration
Arsenal: +Production, +Military Centralization
Fortifications: ++Defense

At least that's how I'd spread points on these.
Looking at them, the things I consider most important for our current situation are the Great Hall, Library, and Gardens. Our administration, community, and culture, are what are currently being strained, so I'd like to focus on them. I think people are underestimating the effect an exceptionally large library would have, by the way.
 
North isn't a problem in the short future.
We would have ended one of the fronts in the war this turn if it weren't for the heir.
We have ~3 really bad turns of wealth hits before the tax problem comes down hard. Less if we rent out our mercs at some point.

North is a problem within the construction time of the palace if we go crazy with annexes.

We're discussing what us the problem, not what we would have liked the problem to be. We have a war on our doorstep whether we like it or not. At least a turn, maybe two. And we're supporting our vassals fighting the Swamp People, yet another war that shows no sign of stopping anytime soon.

And the longer construction time of the Palace is going to drag us through yet more turns with low wealth, requiring us to spend actions addressing the wealth problem. Who are we renting the mercs to anyway? We've antagonized almost everyone.
 
The basis is our provinces and peripheries stayws pushing for Redshore, its literally in the update. Our periphery states have constantly built docks and boats to stay connected to us and find Redshore to be much easier to send their delegates to. Its also easier for Hatvally to travel to Redshore then through the mountains to Valleyhome. I'm picking Redshore and expanded greay hall for the synergy it will provide, our provinces and subordinates sending delegates and becoming a part of the buearucratic process is excellent and will head off any more independence movements hence better long term.
Look, the difference betweek Valleyhome and Redshore is a week. It's not enough of a difference to go through all the trouble of making Redshore our capital for a nebulous long term benefit that only pays off(if it ever does) in hundres of years from now. The only reason people like Redshore is they don't want to be bothered to travel the extra week, which isn't enough of a reason to go through the hassle.
 
Fifth were storehouses. The king's residence was already close to a number of central storehouses and granaries so it made sense, and there would of course be internal stores for the palace's consumption, but these proposals were for major areas to do nothing but store critical goods and administer their collection and distribution. These would certainly help with administration purposes, and help the city if it were ever cut off from food supplies by disaster or war.

Storehouse do help with administrative purposes and I'm betting on shine + 2 library + storehouse + basic everything to majorly reduce management headache.
 
The basis is our provinces and peripheries stayws pushing for Redshore, its literally in the update.
Where? I didn't read any such thing.

And you realize people traveling to Valleyhome probably just get on a boat to Redshore then walk to Valleyhome.

They aren't that far apart. Your point about ease of use doesn't make any sense. What is a week when you have been on the road/a boat for 4 months?
 
Last edited:
I forgot how the vast majority of our leaders for the past ten turns weren't from the north
Is this sarkasm or am i overreacting?
Anyhow.
While we have had several northen leaders in recent times, they have all been heroic and there have been circumstances when chosen. When our orky king got elected it was the northen chiefs who pushed their limited influence against the political influence of valleyhome, which had split into two or three factions each supporting a different candidate.

The "dynasty" duo before that had the founder coming from the stallion tribes and was elected to fight our enemies (both where also heroic) and his daughter was culturally more valley-girl than stallion-broad.

I think those are the three northen leaders we had..... ever. Might be wrong though.
 
North is a problem within the construction time of the palace if we go crazy with annexes.

We're discussing what us the problem, not what we would have liked the problem to be. We have a war on our doorstep whether we like it or not. At least a turn, maybe two. And we're supporting our vassals fighting the Swamp People, yet another war that shows no sign of stopping anytime soon.

And the longer construction time of the Palace is going to drag us through yet more turns with low wealth, requiring us to spend actions addressing the wealth problem. Who are we renting the mercs to anyway? We've antagonized almost everyone.
Yes

We have a war on our doorstep. A war that we are by all appearances winning. As soon as we've beat the TH and re-allied, they'll be opposing the Swamp People who will then back down.

If/when we beat either the TH or the SP, we can rent them the mercs. It's within the scope of the "longer construction time of the palace." Longer being 2-3 more turns, generally.

@Athanor clearly it isn't unusual for non-valleyhome kings to occur.
 
Last edited:
Same thing here. Problem is distance to heart of the empire.
This distance is far shorter in Redshore than in Valleyhome. Reminder that the Western Wall is big enough to hit the action cap on provinces already. Valleyhome increases the admin load to integrate Western Wall and Hathatyn Colony
OTOH, Valleyhome still is where most issues are by themselves. Even if we make Redshore our capital, Valleyhome will remain our cultural, economical and population centre. IMO it will cause strain to separate the central administration from that.
 
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
[X] Storehouse
[X] Gardens
[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] [Loc] Valleyhome
 
Last edited:
Back
Top