Ehhh...

There is a rather clear continuation line Original Lowlander Civilization => Western Confederacy (free Lowlanders not under Xoh control) => Highland (centralized Western Confederacy). So the Highlanders are the Lowlanders, really... wait...
The OLC popped and split into the Xoh and WC. The WC then popped because of our vamping and became the HK and Hats.

So you can definitely trace ancestry, but what I am talking about there is continuity. The Xoh stayed the Xoh for all this time while the UK are descendants.

Not a very important thing to really argue over though. I have this as something of a running joke/entertainment on the side.
 
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The OLC popped and split into the Xoh and WC. The WC then popped because of our vamping and became the HK and Hats.

So you can definitely trace ancestry, but what I am talking about there is continuity. The Xoh stayed the Xoh for all this time while the UK are descendants.

Not a very important thing to really argue over though. I have this as something of a running joke/entertainment on the side.
The DP/Xoh also formed from a single city of the lowlanders surviving, forming around an existing priesthood that got them through the chaos, while the WC were seemingly more of a "the general cultural group semi-reformed after fleeing the lowlands", which gives the DP/Xoh more actual continuity as a functional polity, imo:

The lowlands had split into two distinct groups after the spirit talkers had struck them so hard, both in the far south of the land. On the western side were the 'free people'. They were still quite violent and practiced both slavery and human sacrifice, but the former seemed to be more transient and based off of internal punishments and raids, and the latter was only done in response to crisis. The big thing with them was that they were intentionally avoiding settling in the heart of the lowlands, sticking to the geographic borders but unable to go much beyond because they weren't very good farmers, due to a major fear of the ghosts of all who died in that place, and the depredations of the 'demons', soon sorted out to be their term for the spirit talkers. While they had inherited much of the warrior culture of their ancestors, when push came to shove they preferred to just pack up and move rather than put up with aggressive neighbours, hence why this group had migrated relatively far in short order.

Then there were the 'dead priests', who were the eastern half of the lowlanders remnants. They were the consolidated remains of the one major settlement that had survived the disaster a generation ago. Where before the situation had been a free-for-all with the strongest rising to the top, this group was instead held together around the lowlander's spirit talkers, who followed the teachings of ancestral spirits that ached for blood. Slaving and warfare and human sacrifice were still present and endemic, but the priests now controlled when and where it happened. Gone were the days of explosive growth, but this group sounded like they might actually be organized enough to survive a major disaster, unlike their predecessors.
 
I mean, the "wanting a library for ages" bit makes sense, i almost instinctively went for that at first, but we have word of AN that a northern temple would help with the value divergence problem?
Its because cultural divergence isn't the problem. Nor is how happy the Northerners are right now (they actually will like us fairly well for the next two turns or so). The problem is that they are becoming too self-sufficient and too self-reliant and that is giving them ideas.

Right now, our main goal is to build enough roads that everyone can interact with each other, instead of forming their own self-contained communities and economies. Giving the North a temple does the opposite.
 
Funnily enough, this means that the second-oldest polities in the region are now:

The Thunder Horse, which we explicitly created accidentally on purpose

The Thunder Speakers, who a while ago gave up the pretence of not being the ghosts of the Spirit Talkers possessing the heads of that religion through the Star Axe artifact, who we also indirectly created.

We are the grandaddies of almost all of our neighbors, in a nearly literal sense.
 
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Funnily enough, this means that the second-oldest polities in the region are now:

The Thunder Horse, which we explicitly created accidentally on purpose

The Thunder Speakers, who a while ago gave up the pretence of not being the ghosts of the Spirit Talkers possessing the heads of that religion through the Star Axe artifact, who we also indirectly created.

We are the grandaddies of almost all of our neighbors, in a nearly literal sense.
About six or seven hundred years if you don't count the split. Then it's more like four hundred.
 
I think we might want to take another turn to build the palace, possibly pairing it with More Trails, if only because the optics of the rich southerners making all of the provinces work to build the king a fancy palace is appalling.
Actually, based on dialogue and AN commentary, we might be better off finishing it quickly before they can get pissed about it. While it's under construction it's a massive drain on resources, once it's complete it provides visible gains even to the fringe provinces and they'd stop bitching so much about it.

Aren't we on a time limit with the ST? Something about in the next three turns...
They'll finish their own temple in the next 3 turns or so. If we Integrate them and then finish that temple with Main State resources, that means the temple will be staffed with priests from Sacred Forest initially.

Otherwise you'd probably see Northern Ancestor Cult taking over the temple.

Pain itself was a major killer in early surgery (it leads to shock and heart failure.) Doctors would practice doing surgeries for speed to limit the amount of time the person was in extreme pain, because that would improve survival rates. We're talking serious surgeries in under a minute. It's basically impossible to practice good sanitation or to be careful when you're going at that speed.

Opium is our first real pain killer. Knock someone out on opium, and they won't even feel the pain. That allows you do do surgery, well, surgically. Carefully. And with a much higher overall survival rate.
Hence the preference for amputation in otherwise salvagable wounds...because they aren't.
So, I looked up the 4.2kiloyear event that @Academia Nut mentioned, which is a aridification event. Climate change is hypothesized to cause the collapse of at least three different civilizations and cultures across the globe.

In our case, it looked like climate is getting wetter.
Actually, it's more complex than that. Our wind patterns changed(I did a giant effortpost on it that nobody seemed to have given a damn about), which caused some areas to become wetter and others to be drier.
 
Xohyssiri endings v2
Negaverse Omake:

The Fall of the Xoh

The inner city was in chaos. Priests and nobles alike were running to and fro, desperately trying to find a way out of the situation. Some called for more sacrifices to appease the gods. Others urged their leaders to surrender, or fight on, or simply flee from the city before it was too late. Everywhere he turned, the Head Priest saw only fear and desperation. He met up with the War Chief several times, hoping to come up with a strategy to enable them to survive before it was too late.

But it was already too late.

The Ymaryn army had marched up to the very walls of the capital, their iron armor and elite Red Banner warriors allowing them to sweep aside all resistance in their path. Their current king, the nomad chieftain Phygrif, seemed all too eager to crush any warriors that attempted to stall his advance, though he made a point to spare any villages that willingly surrendered.

Camped outside the capital, the Ymaryns surrounded the city, cutting it off from the food supplies needed to keep the people fed. Worse, their numbers only seemed to swell with each passing day as more and more lowlanders joined up for a chance to strike back against their former masters. The priests did their best to maintain order, but there was only so much they could do. The mighty walls of the capital held firm, even as the people inside slowly starved to death.

Just when the Head Priest thought things couldn't get any worse, the Ymaryns brought out their newest contraption - a massive log of wood, bound together with iron and bronze and protected by a roof of wood and leather. The device was wheeled to the walls, where the men pushing it began swinging it into the gates again and again like a massive hammer. The people cowered in fear as the thunderous booming began to echo throughout the city. The gates were massive affairs, made of thick wood that had been carved and bound together hundreds of years ago. But even they could not hold on for long. Under the force of the blows, they began to crack, splinter, and finally shattered with an ear splitting crash.

The Ymaryn's Red Banners poured into the city, their iron tipped spears gleaming in the sunlight. The Xoh warriors were already demoralized by their past defeats, but when they realized that the walls had fallen, many of them broke completely and ran rather then fight against the iron clad scorpions. The Ymaryn spent hours scouring the outer city, raiding and pillaging at will.

As the sun began to set, the war chief Phygrif rode his cart up to the gates of the inner city and studied the great Bone Wall. The priests and nobles inside watched him carefully, knowing that at this point they would only be able to delay the inevitable. Once the great battering ram was rolled up into the city, it was only a matter of time before the inner walls fell as well.

However, it seemed that Phygrif had a different fate in store for the Xoh.

Buildings were smashed apart for firewood, citizens were forced out of their homes, and everything of value was carted off before the entire city was set ablaze. Trapped inside their own walls, the priests and nobles burned. The slum dwellers fled the burning city in droves, but even so tens of thousands of them perished among the flames. By the time the fires had died down, the once grand city of Xoh was nothing more then a burnt out husk.

Bad End - Your Civilization has been destroyed by the Ymaryn!

Akamaru said:
OH COME ON! Iron weapons, mercenary companies, even battering rams? What next? Are the Ymaryn going to discover gunpowder next turn?
Shoggothslp said:
Dammit, if only we had more Martial. The damned climate problems made it impossible for us to get anything done before the Ymaryn showed up.
redscale78 said:
So can anyone tell me why the hill people were so keen on destroying us? I don't think they've even bothered coming into the Lowlands for centuries and now suddenly they decide to sweep in and smash everything. What gives?
Veeka said:
IIRC, they saw that we were doing human sacrifice and decided that the reason that the weather's been so bad is because we'd pissed off the gods.
CanaryOgre said:
Dammit, I knew that the human sacrifice thing would come back to bite us in the arse.
Filledinfinity said:
Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time? Everyone was just happy to have something that could stop Stability from dropping below 0.
redscale78 said:
Gods damn it guys. I told you that we should discuss things first, but nooo, we just had to follow the Veeka bandwagon.
Akamaru said:
The goddamn Ymaryn are the reason why we couldn't let Stability drop below 0 in the first place! Every time we lost Stability, they'd swoop in and steal all our Econ. Why do you think we haven't been able to get anything done since the climate crisis began?
Veeka said:
So what have the rest of our neighbors been doing lately? Even with all the climate issues, I doubt they'd be happy about the Ymaryn muscling in on the lowlands.
Scholarly Seed said:
Well, the Highlanders tried attacking the Ymaryn earlier. It's actually the reason why they ended up burning Xoh down instead of conquering it. The Ymaryn king had to rush back to protect his territory, so he decided that if he couldn't have the city, nobody could.
KFClover said:
Shit. Fucking HK. I knew we should have smashed them while they were still weak
Livingangel said:
We kinda did? It's why we've been stuck in a constant war for centuries over who gets to rule the Lowlands.
Citina said:
Hey guys! I just got back from my vacation! Did anything interesting happen while I was away?
 
The risks however is that if Wealth production drops for any reason, then these armies are quite liable to go rogue a hell of a lot faster than Marches.
The thing is, when trade picks up- we generate a lot of wealth automatically, combine that with expanding mills- something we'll want to do anyways, or vineyards- and we have a means of resupplying our wealth if our trade networks decay again.
 
Its because cultural divergence isn't the problem. Nor is how happy the Northerners are right now (they actually will like us fairly well for the next two turns or so). The problem is that they are becoming too self-sufficient and too self-reliant and that is giving them ideas.

Right now, our main goal is to build enough roads that everyone can interact with each other, instead of forming their own self-contained communities and economies. Giving the North a temple does the opposite.
I mean, its not the only problem, but it is a problem. And again, we'll end up with them having their own temple to be self-contained with in a couple turns either way, and we're going on a major road building push either way, so...

Doing the temple now has the trade off of making them not need to make pilgrimages to the south as much a turn or two earlier than otherwise, in exchange for making their new religious centerpoint be culturally and religiously more southern and/or more broadly representative of the people. I personally think it would be "best" to build them a temple next turn, but i really doubt we will if we dont take the free option, so i'm going for it now

Actually, it's more complex than that. Our wind patterns changed(I did a giant effortpost on it that nobody seemed to have given a damn about), which caused some areas to become wetter and others to be drier.
I missed that, but it sounds interesting, can you link it?
 
I'm voting for the library because I'm hoping it'll be useful for the Grand Palace in terms of record-keeping and such by already having a large number of scribes within the city.
 
I'd like the record to show- I, Karugus, feel the electing of one Phygrif, Chief of the Heaven Hawks tribe, as King of the Ymaryn- is the best decision I've made in this thread.

The Xohyr shit the bed the same turn a hero got a minor crit. As it was, they may have yet pulled through, and technically Xohyr can still rise once more.

if you don't' mind me asking, about how unlikely was it that we were able to take the city despite pulling back a lot of our troops? Like was it a long shot but possible, or was it a complete and utter fluke?
Ehhh... most likely you would begin to breach the outer city walls and then have to pull back.

We got so lucky. If the Xoh didn't fail and we didn't roll a crit, we would have had to fight both the Xoh and the HK. Probably the Thunder Speakers too if they saw a good opportunity. Just because the result was good doesn't mean that we made a good decision. It's classic outcome bias.

Ehhh... yes and no. Yes in that it would reinforce 'standard' culture, no in that they wouldn't have to go down south to visit the temple. Although that will be solved by the Stallions anyway over the next few turns...
Ugh, this is probably going to be the hard decision of the vote. It isn't as simple as I originally thought.

If we vote for Valleyhome Library and we can't manage to integrate the Stallions, their temple will have culturally divergent values which is incredibly bad for us. On the other hand, we place our temple in the North, it counteracts the values of the Stallion Temple if we fail to integrate them. Ideally, we'd integrate the Stallions before they finish their temple, but considering how temples are incredibly cheap (2 secondaries, 4 econ, 4 art), I'm not sure we can take that risk, considering how much work our administration currently needs.

A Stallion temple will solidify their values, which can lead to a social fracture. Their temple is closer to the Northern provinces which makes everything worse.

I'd say we should put up a temple if we're not going to risk integrating the Stallions the next main turn.
 
We got so lucky. If the Xoh didn't fail and we didn't roll a crit, we would have had to fight both the Xoh and the HK. Probably the Thunder Speakers too if they saw a good opportunity. Just because the result was good doesn't mean that we made a good decision. It's classic outcome bias.
Kar has been pro-lowlands for a long time, that's why he loves Phy. The fact that we rekt the Xoh, and are pretty much the undisputed major power in the region due to him helps.
 
God dammit. I can't believe Citino managed to do a Negaverse omake right before mine.

[X] [Main] New Trails
[X] [Main] New Trails x2
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
[X] [Policy] Offensive

[X] [Wonder] Library
-[X] [Wonder] Valleyhome

Roooooads. All the Roads.

Also, trees. Because we're not elfy enough yet.

Offensive policy so that our minions can go and kick in the Highlander's teeth for us.

I'm not sure what to pick for the Red Banners, so I'll skip that for now.

Finally, let's grab a Library in our capital. Hopefully, that'll help sort out some of our admin issues.
 
Hey @Academia Nut what kind of help is this talking about? Like will expanding forest in the lowlands count as help?
Military help. They got it handled because they are Iron Armed Ymaryn Vassals, but more is always appreciated.
Well, sorta. The lowlanders were about our age, but they imploded into the Western Confederacy and the Dead Priests, also known as the Xoh. So the Xoh were a civ break behind us in terms of age, but the Highlanders are two.

Cocky whelps.
Different metrics here:
Original generation:
-Nomads
--Still Nomads
--Thunder Horse
---Eastern Thunder Horse
----Thunder Horse Empire
-----Xohyssiri Empire
------Xohyssiri Remnants
--Thunder Speakers
---Thunder Horse Empire
----Thunder Speakers
-----Xohyssiri Empire
------Thunder Speakers

-Ymaryn - Still Ymaryn. For now.

-Lowlanders - Contains the city of Xohy.
--Dead Priests - Contains the city of Xohy.
---Xohyssiri - Contains the city of Xohy.
----Thunder Horse Empire - Contains the city of Xohy.
-----Xohyssiri Empire - Contains the city of Xohy.
------Xohyssiri - Contains the city of Xohy.
-------Dead
--Western Confederacy
---Lowland Minors(asst)
----Lowland Minors(minus Northwest)
----Ymaryn - Contains Northwestern Lowland Minors
---Highland Kingdom
---Hathatyn(?)
----Hathatyn Remnants
-----New Hathatyn
------Ymaryn - Hathatyn Colony
I mean, the "wanting a library for ages" bit makes sense, i almost instinctively went for that at first, but we have word of AN that a northern temple would help with the value divergence problem?
...you have word of AN right there that it will make things temporarily better...then a lot worse.

It basically removes any reason for Northern priests to come to Sacred Forest rather than just visit their own Temple, which means Northern Priests cultural divergence accelerates.

Noting that the Stallions are doing it on their own in a few turns unless we Integrate them soon, and their Dragon Bone Temple will be initially populated by their own priests, who'd push Martial Glory and Ancestral Honor of their own values, unless we do it with a state action for them and send Sacred Forest priests over.
 
Ideally, we'd integrate the Stallions before they finish their temple, but considering how temples are incredibly cheap (2 secondaries, 4 econ, 4 art), I'm not sure we can take that risk, considering how much work our administration currently needs.
There is a chance that the Stallion Tribes don't have access to our Rush Builders Legacy. If so, it would take them two mains instead of two secondaries. Still, it would probably be a good idea to integrate them next turn.
 
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...you have word of AN right there that it will make things temporarily better...then a lot worse.

It basically removes any reason for Northern priests to come to Sacred Forest rather than just visit their own Temple, which means Northern Priests cultural divergence accelerates.

Noting that the Stallions are doing it on their own in a few turns unless we Integrate them soon, and their Dragon Bone Temple will be initially populated by their own priests, who'd push Martial Glory and Ancestral Honor of their own values, unless we do it with a state action for them and send Sacred Forest priests over.
I mean, yeah? You basically repeated my point and what i got out of that quote, though you obviously think the proper response/priorities are different. My logic is "the downside's gonna happen anyway, but if we wait we get more downsides and no upsides, while if we act now we makethe downside come a little better in exchange for actually having an upside"; i personally think that justifies building the temple, but i also fully understand that its possible to either disagree on that interpretation or even agree on that but have a different final conclusion
 
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