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Paths of Civilization

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@Academia Nut according to our advisors, what's generally going to be the better path, building the Palace now(and maybe even rushing it to build within a couple turns) THEN integrating the STs, or folding in the STs THEN doing the palace?
 
Abby Normal said:
I mean, if by some miracle the temple won, i'd be pushing for us to build a library during the palace building, yeah :p
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We wouldn't be able to. The Grand Palace costs Art to make and so does the Library, and we only have so much Art.

@zamin, can you please do an analysis post? It's been a long time since the last one and the events of the last turn really is deserving of a zamin analysis.
 
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Therealtahu said:
We got so lucky. If the Xoh didn't fail and we didn't roll a crit, we would have had to fight both the Xoh and the HK. Probably the Thunder Speakers too if they saw a good opportunity. Just because the result was good doesn't mean that we made a good decision. It's classic outcome bias.
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Citino said:
Kar has been pro-lowlands for a long time, that's why he loves Phy. The fact that we rekt the Xoh, and are pretty much the undisputed major power in the region due to him helps.
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This, I was pleased with Phy back when everyone thought he had dragged us into a three-way war for hegemony over the Lowlands and the collapse of Ymaryn civilization was imminent. Because I had gotten what I wanted, and because any hypothetical collapse would certainly leave at least one heavily militarized successor with expansionistic ambitions.

It was a win-win for my agenda. Or at least, acceptable loss-win for my agenda.
 
At this point I'm going to campaign heavily next turn for us to integrate the Stallions. I know that it will probably leave our already burdened administrative capabilities straining but we need to bring them in the fold before they create a temple which will solidify their beliefs. After all there isn't much of a point in creating a palace to administer a kingdom that's about to split itself in half.
 
Citino said:
Slight mention in mine when they talk about the step farms getting rekt by the rain, but otherwise there isn't too much reason for it to come up. If their chinampas didn't help them, why would it help us after all?
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Chinampas was the reason why we gotten so good at hydrology and the completion of our megaproject.
 
Potato and Chip said:
At this point I'm going to campaign heavily next turn for us to integrate the Stallions. I know that it will probably leave our already burdened administrative capabilities straining but we need to bring them in the fold before they create a temple which will solidify their beliefs. After all there isn't much of a point in creating a palace to administer a kingdom that's about to split itself in half.
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By the same token, there's not much point integrating the ST if that will push us over our ability to administer and we split.
 
Kiba said:
Chinampas was the reason why we gotten so good at hydrology and the completion of our megaproject.
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And the negaverse Xoh would know this how? I guess AF could have mentioned it, but that just seems like a bad idea. A QM rubbing salt into the players wounds is usually not a good idea, after all, especially not when they just lost.
 
Karugus said:
The thing is, when trade picks up- we generate a lot of wealth automatically, combine that with expanding mills- something we'll want to do anyways, or vineyards- and we have a means of resupplying our wealth if our trade networks decay again.
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The thing is it has a glass jaw. Trade disruption and loss of dominance can result in breakaway mercenary crisis, as can loss of prestige.

From our Salterns, if we built them up to all our slots, our maximum safe mercenary quantity is 3.
Abby Normal said:
I missed that, but it sounds interesting, can you link it?
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Here. I mostly plotted out the overall prevailing wind directions(not accounting for fine level pressure variances, but the gist is bodies of water add water to the air and bodies of hills/mountains remove it and dump it on the ground, valleys vary depending on if the wind is lengthwise or crosswise(wind passing crosswise on a valley generates a shitload of rain, which is reflected here in Valleyhome) )
veekie said:
Okay, this is WEIRD. Well, not THAT weird, hills are known to impact the transfer of water, but still, considering everything is flooding this is highly anomalous.

That gives me a few bits of info:
-The original prevailing wind of the region is Southeast to Northwest.
--FACT - Increased rainfall southeast of the Metalworker Mountains - Water dumped by clouds due to mountain
--FACT - Increased rainfall southeast of our Northern mountains - Water dumped by clouds due to mountain
--FACT - Decreased rainfall to the north and west of our Northern Mountains over the steppes. - Water dumped by clouds due to mountain, no source for replenishment
--FACT - Decreased rainfall over the northern lowlands and eastern hills - Air moisture exhausted passing over extensive plains, except along the rivers.
--FACT - Excessive rainfall on south coast of lowlands where the Swamp People live - Air moisture turbocharged by passing over warm seas, dumped as it cools over land.
--FACT - Decreased rainfall over Northshore - Air moisture depleted by passing over north Ymaryn mountain range
--FACT - Basically dry wind over most of the Steppes.
--THEORY - Slightly increased rainfall over Western Wall and Black River - Air moisture recharged from sea, though the wind does not pass over a lot of sea.
--THEORY - Decreased rainfall over Northeastern Hathatyn. - Air moisture depleted by mountains.
--THEORY - Increased rainfall over Southern Hathatyn - Air moisture discharged onto mountains
--THEORY - Increased rainfall over Highlander capital - Air moisture discharged onto mountains
--THEORY - Increased rainfall over Southeastern Thunder Horse - Assuming they have the same mountain range to their north, air moisture will be discharged onto the mountains and flows south.
--THEORY - Decreased rainfall over Northern Thunder Horse - Water is largely discharged on their southern parts.
--THEORY - Xohyssiri position is neutral on rainfall in the goldilocks zone.
--THEORY - Thunder Speakers are arid because the Thunder Horse mountains depleted the air moisture.

-The new weather pattern has the prevailing wind being some variation of Southwest to Northeast.
--FACT - Ymaryn Core lands drowned in rain - Air moisture picked up across the sea and dumped practically directly onto Valleyhome when it hits our eastern mountains, causes the full load of sea vapor to drop directly onto our land.
--FACT - Stonepen, Stallion Tribes and Northshore are experiencing increased rainfall - With the wind direction change, these three sites would be picking up substantial amounts of water rich winds from the sea
--FACT - Eastern Hills are experiencing drought - With the wind direction change, instead of picking up water-depleted from the lowlands, you go to the water-exhausted wind that had just dumped ALL the water onto Valleyhome.
--FACT - Steppes should be seeing vastly increased rainfall overall, approximately as much as the Lowlands used to have, but without any mountains it's spread more evenly than Ymaryn's "land reclaimation by airdrop" experience.
--FACT - Central lowlands is experiencing normal weather, but the rivers are overloaded.
--THEORY - Greenshore should be suffering slightly reduced rainfall(down to normal) as their new wind direction no longer dumps it's full water load on the mountain.
--THEORY - Hathatyn may be suffering reduced rainfall, depending on their southern geography.
--THEORY - Highlanders may be eating a drought depending on their geography. At the same time as floods from Ymaryn rivers coming down.
--THEORY - Swamp People should be largely unaffected.
--THEORY - Northern Thunder Horse should be experiencing increased rainfall
--THEORY - Southern Thunder Horse should be experiencing greatly increased rainfall
--THEORY - Xohyssiri should be fine except every the river they are on had swollen to flooding levels. So not fine at all.
--THEORY - Thunder Speakers should be experiencing slightly increased rainfall as they're taking in water depleted wind from the lowlands rather than the water exhausted wind from the Thunder Horse.

What this translates to is:
-Steppes - Greening.
-Metalworkers - Should be getting extra rain, but they're starting drier.
-Greenshore - Should be getting less rain, but they're normally getting a lot.
-Western Wall - Unaffected.
-Blackriver - Little direct impact beyond slightly increased river flow.
-Stallion Tribes - Little direct impact beyond slightly increased river flow.
-Northshore - Should be getting extra rain, but they normally get little.
-Stonepen - Should be getting extra rain, but they normally get little.
-Redshore - Turbulent seas, increased rainfall.
-Sacred Forest - Land reclaimation by airdrop
-Valleyhome - Land reclaimation by airdrop
-Redhill - Dry becomes slightly drier.
-Hathatyn - Drier in parts, wetter in parts.
-Thunder Speakers - Dry becomes slightly less dry.
-Northern Thunder Horse - Rivers swell.
-Southern Thunder Horse - Land reclaimation by airdrop
-Highlanders - Drought. And flood. At the same time.
-Xohyssiri - Largely unaffected but for the floods.
-Swamp People - Completely unaffected.
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Therealtahu said:
We got so lucky. If the Xoh didn't fail and we didn't roll a crit, we would have had to fight both the Xoh and the HK. Probably the Thunder Speakers too if they saw a good opportunity. Just because the result was good doesn't mean that we made a good decision. It's classic outcome bias.


Ugh, this is probably going to be the hard decision of the vote. It isn't as simple as I originally thought.

If we vote for Valleyhome Library and we can't manage to integrate the Stallions, their temple will have culturally divergent values which is incredibly bad for us. On the other hand, we place our temple in the North, it counteracts the values of the Stallion Temple if we fail to integrate them. Ideally, we'd integrate the Stallions before they finish their temple, but considering how temples are incredibly cheap (2 secondaries, 4 econ, 4 art), I'm not sure we can take that risk, considering how much work our administration currently needs.

A Stallion temple will solidify their values, which can lead to a social fracture. Their temple is closer to the Northern provinces which makes everything worse.

I'd say we should put up a temple if we're not going to risk integrating the Stallions the next main turn.
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Okay, requirements for integrating Stallions:
-Diplomacy >6, the higher the better.
--Currently 4, will be 8 next turn from Double Main Trails and passive income. Ready.
-Centralization >2
--Currently 3, will be 5 next turn from Double Main Trails. Ready.
-Martial <= 8(including Econ)[this is due to Stallions raising martial cap by 1 but adding at least 8 Martial of their own] OR Stability > 0
--Martial currently 7 {9}, will be 8{10} next turn from war payout. Not ready.
--Stability currently 1. Ready

We can do it next main turn, but we'd be taking Red Martial risks unless we spawn a Mercenary Company or a March soon after.

Or stay at high stability until we can.
 
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[X] [Main] New Trails
[X] [Main] New Trails x2
[X] [Secondary] Support Subordinate - Lowland Minors
[X] [Policy] Offensive

[X] [RB] West, through the hills

[X] [Wonder] Temple
-[X] [Wonder] Warrior's Rest

Hey folks, how about we send some of our dudes in the lowlands to start the process of assimilation?

@Academia Nut , can we Support Subordinate on our vassals?
 
Killer_Whale said:
By the same token, there's not much point integrating the ST if that will push us over our ability to administer and we split.
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At this point I'm thinking we're already going to split considering how the Stallion Tribes keep distancing themselves from us in each and every turn. Granted if AN says that integrating the Stallion Tribes right now will cause our administrative qualities to break then I'd push for a rushed building of the palace, but with the Library being built in our capital that will help keep records and our extensive expanding of the roads that connect us to our various territories I'm betting on us being able to hold things together.
 
So integrate the Stallions next turn is probably in. Should that be paired with a Main New Trails or a Main Plant Poppies?
 
veekie said:
Okay, requirements for integrating Stallions:
-Diplomacy >6, the higher the better.
--Currently 4, will be 8 next turn from Double Main Trails and passive income. Ready.
-Centralization >2
--Currently 3, will be 5 next turn from Double Main Trails. Ready.
-Martial <= 8(including Econ)[this is due to Stallions raising martial cap by 1 but adding at least 8 Martial of their own] OR Stability > 0
--Martial currently 7 {9}, will be 8{10} next turn from war payout. Not ready.
--Stability currently 1. Ready

We can do it next main turn, but we'd be taking Red Martial risks unless we spawn a Mercenary Company or a March soon after.

Or stay at high stability until we can.
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Interesting. I could see us spawning a mercenary company, we could use them to protect a hypothetical trelli or northern trading post. It'd be a tricky combo to pull off, though, and keeping multiple of them around is of course risky.
 
Something that hasn't been discussed yet, but since we are sending our Red Banner Mercenaries against the Highlanders on top of setting our Policy to Offense, it is incredibly likely that one of the War Mission will be diverted to assist our Vassal.

So we don't really need to send assistance.
 
You know...

I think this is a good time to gift the Thunder Speakers. Reward them for not turning on us, show we appreciate it, ease their concerns that they'll next, and begin the process of peaceful subjugation.
Adhoc vote count started by redzonejoe on Jul 3, 2017 at 11:56 PM, finished with 67813 posts and 82 votes.
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Candesce said:
Invading the Highlanders will be a meatgrinder if anything is. Depends on how far we have to push them back before they give.
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Well, there are still several turns of inclement weather right now, and they will likely see that we can afford to fight them more than they can. They will also be well aware that Walls are no longer the ultimate protection they once were.
 
Karugus said:
The thing is, when trade picks up- we generate a lot of wealth automatically, combine that with expanding mills- something we'll want to do anyways, or vineyards- and we have a means of resupplying our wealth if our trade networks decay again.
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Or poppies. Super cheap wealth at first at least.
 
Andres110 said:
@Academia Nut, what was Phygrif's reaction to women warriors?
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If he comes from a typical nomad tribe women warriors are nothing new. Nearly all nomadic people are much more egalitarian than sedentary peoples- men are the typical ones to go out on raids because you don't NEED too many men to keep a clan alive, but exceptions aren't unknown- if you look at Chinese paintings of nomad mercenaries some are clearly women.
 
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