- Location
- Mists of Albion
Veekie shot that down
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Hell
Also hilarious when you look at American history, particularly their civil war era.
We are a northern smaller area populace, industry focused, nonslave holding, with little war experience or education.
The Highland Kingdom are southern populace, farm vast areas with slaves, and have a great military education.
The coincidences are uncanny.
That...that was almost a copy of what I just said.
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pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Conversely, not doing megaprojects out of fear for whatever happens next is just as counterproductive.
Honestly, the way we do them is probably one of the better ones. If something happens while we're in the middle of a project, we muddle through as best we can and then fix everything when we're done. Any other way and nothing will ever get done.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
The Highlanders don't use slaves, they use a second class citizen system based originally on our half exile labour system
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We already had a Gilgamesh Expy in Gwygoytha. Sadly she got eaten by Gwy and Gyo our hermaphrodite Spirits talked about in Cosmogeny. Guess we gotta try again!
I think you are both sort of misunderstanding what I am arguing for. I do not expect us to instantly get modern level statues because stuff is that easy. I was reading people fearing that our statues would all look like shit and I brought up that it probably wont be that bad because, in contrast to mapping 3d objects to 2d surfaces, statues are way more intuitive to get right and thus never really looked objectionably bad to the modern eye.
The way to convince me I am wrong is to just post some genuinely terrible looking statues from the early ages of civilization.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
I tried to make a sorta Gilgamesh expy out of Fythhagyna, look back at the Divine Union omake and I vaguely hint at a badarse journey where she cuts down demons and monsters and saves baby kittens and shit whilst on the hunt for Crow, vaguely reminiscent of Gilgamesh's epic except without details because I'm lazy
I even added an climax where she gets in a fist fight with a massive monster aka The Devourer (she goes on to marry the monster but the point still stands)
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Anyways, the whole 'we need to research things' is very easily solved in the mid term.
- Gain enough automatic diplo income to gain 4~ diplo/turn. We know our provinces are going to try and get dominance in various trade goods, since we asked AN and he at least implied they would aim for it. So they'll either work on docks, wine, or dye this turn most likely.
- Switch to progress policy during golden age after this is achieved. Study Stars should be under this policy if I'm not mistaken @Academia Nut ? so we won't break our guys working on the chain. Constant overflow from other stats will flow into econ, thus taking up the econ slots created from spending econ in the first place. Extra points since art patronage is under here, and will likely be taken as a main, giving us a good chance of generating +1 Prestige/turn.
- Profit
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hey @Academia Nut since we are doing a secondary festival now, if the provinces did a secondary festival as well which fused with ours, would that count as two Econ spending actions generating 2 Econ Expansion from True City or one Econ spending action?
- Location
- Hell
Sauce so I can better remember.
Still, the resemblance is there. >.>
Nope, still doesn't matter, you go to a modern aborigine and show them stone age tools and they will laugh. Same thing with Ymaryn and the rest of the polites. To you, it might all look the same, to them there will still be a clear difference in quality.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Here you go
Academia Nut later clarified that their slaves shared a lot in common with the Half Exiles concept
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Survivor's bias -- most of the shitty statues from very early ages didn't survive because people would be more likely to commission replacements when better sculpting came about. Also, you're only likely to ever see images of the good sculptures because that's the one that people nowadays are interested in and put into museums and take pictures of.
I am aware that there will still be improvements to statues further down the tech tree. I am just saying that we dont need to fear a scenario where after a couple of art patronages our characters will break the statues apart because they look so primitive that they are ashamed of them.
Your challenge for me to try creating a statue myself is actually a nice example. I am confident that my doodles look better than anything from the age we are talking about just because there is so much stuff needed to draw a decent 2d picture, but I found no statue that looks worse than my attempts with clay back in school, because there is no big technological barrier for creating a decent looking statue.
Edit: I am going to sleep pretty soon and this threads speed makes me hesitant to continue this discussion tomorrow, so you probably shouldnt invest too much effort into answering this. I would feel bad about making you waste time.
I considered that there is bias in what statues get famous enough appear in my google searches, but is the replacement thing actually a problem? A shitty painting is way easier to replace than some big statue and we have still found lots of bad ones. I also think that a statue that is thrown into some garbage pit and gets covered in dirt might even have an easier time surviving than one that is still around when society collapses.
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- Location
- The People's Saltern
If you're making it out of clay, the statue is going to be malleable unless you can fire it. The problem is that we lack the kilns or technology to properly fire a giant statue.
As for the metals, iron rusts and copper corrodes and we don't have access to tin to make bronze. Even if we did, we don't have the experience for bronze statues.
Stone sculptures aren't that well off either. We don't have the knowledge or techniques to make them.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Wooden statues were quite common, and became quite elaborate and bueatifully ornamented rather quickly.
Ivory, precious stone and horn are other options for moderately sized or small statues.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
No, they use a debt slave system that was a pure slave system until our cultural influence on the WC reformed it.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Also our people have an obsession with the forests, so using wood wouldn't be out of place
High Times
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X][Crow] Spider-Eyed
[X][Fyth] Fertility
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Study Forests
Provinces - [Main] Expand Econ, [Main] Build Docks, [Sec] Study Stars
Stallions - [Main] New Settlement, [Sec] Build Walls, [Sec] Expand Forest
Wall - [Main] New Settlement, [Sec] Build Walls, [Sec] Expand Forest
Things started off innocently enough, the king wanted to introduce the new product of wine into the summer festival. It was like a stronger version of beer, and a little beer had never hurt anyone, so that shouldn't be a problem, right? It would just make things a little merrier as inhibitions were lowered, but it wasn't like this new product could really cause trouble, now was it? They even diluted it with some water to ensure it wasn't too potent.
Unless of course there was a mix up in how much water was needed and the inexperienced people serving the new drink thus told the People that the drink was far less potent than it actually was.
In Valleyhome.
Fortunately generations of city planning meant that the riot didn't get too out of hand, at least not before a chief's son who had been assisting with a project got out the product of that work from storage.
Standing atop a building where he could be seen while friends wafted the smoke from burning coals into the crowd, Gonwyllmyn called out with a rich, booming voice, "People, People! Are you so truly overcome as to lose yourselves like this? Is this not meant to be a joyous occasion, not one for violence?"
This announcement was mostly ignored, although more than a few people paused to look up and take note of the pungent vapours in the air. Gonwyllmyn just kept at it though, until more and more people were paying attention to him than fighting, as well as the honestly kind of obnoxiously sweet smell in the air. Soon enough after that the park he was shouting down at had become something of a sink where confused and possibly angry people drifted in and just sort of got stuck listening to a very charismatic man ask for further peace and calm, as well as appreciating the smells in the air.
By the time the king had the situation under control Gonwyllmyn was being hailed as a hero by everyone who heard his story. About the only ones who were annoyed were the shamans who had asked him to help stockpile the various herbs they had been collecting from some of the forested hills in the western part of Redhills, considering that he had burned the wagonload of the stuff they had been studying. Still, while no one was quite sure how far the riot might have gone without his partial intervention, he had definitely helped minimize the damage, both in the immediate sense and in the sense of creating a lasting black mark upon what the festival was trying to do. Things could be corrected later and the next year would be better as intended.
For his part, Gonwyllmyn was rewarded with a major appointment in coordinating the reconstruction of the damaged areas, where he proved both adept at the administrative work and able to get competing interests to reach compromise. In this, he saw to fresh construction and the implementation of new techniques that allowed new buildings to rise up higher than ever before, allowing more people to fit into the same space and thus providing extra room for parks and fountains to be put in. While some joked that the rioters had ultimately been rewarded for damage to their own homes, this did spark a boom in construction as the city began to renovate itself, new and improved buildings going up higher in order to make more room for beautification projects. As Gonwyllmyn's skills became known and he was moved on to assist and manage with ever greater projects, it became an inevitability that he would be made the heir to the king going forward, having both the connections, the skill, and the charisma to make it a smooth trip.
Heroic Admin and Diplomatic Heir Gained!
+1 Stability
Outside the lands of the People the general situation sounded about the same. The Highlanders tried to use the disruption caused by the recent drought to smash into the over-extended and distracted Thunder Horse, but found themselves getting turned away after achieving early success against the vassals of the Thunder Horse. Part of it was that the Swamp Folk were apparently causing trouble in the south, distracting the Xohyssiri, part of it was that they were trying to get their house in order back in their main territory. Elsewhere it sounded like the newest king for the Metal Workers was making a big push to expand out into the territory around the mountains where they kept their mines. And as for the Hathatyn...
No one was quite sure what was up with them since it sounded like they had been fine, right up until somehow everything spontaneously caught fire - and that was only mild hyperbole, since it sounded like things being on fire was literally one of their big problems. Some suspected that perhaps what forests they had had been stressed by the drought the prior generation, but the People honestly didn't have enough to go on to be able to figure out what might be wrong, but in any case it sounded like at least one tributary city was just straight up gone. Whether engulfed in flame, buried in a landslide, drowned in a flood, or all of the above was difficult to say, but by the sounds of things the people there must have seriously pissed off the gods somehow. This had of course lead to what was frankly a terrifying amount of violent gygo among their southern neighbours. There were of course refugees that the People welcomed as always, but things sounded so bad that villages nominally under the control of the Hathatyn might be persuaded to switch allegiance.
What to do about the Hathatyn?
[] [CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)
[] [CA] Encourage people to flee the conflicts (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
Meanwhile within Valleyhome the new occupational administration was running into some teething problems that were thankfully being voiced openly instead of people scheming in the shadows. Essentially there was a large amount of friction over occupational splitting versus lumping. Splitting was the practice of dividing administration along specialist lines, such as how within Valleyhome the copper workers and the iron workers were under separate leadership. This was used to generate more leadership votes for groups that had a large degree of overlap in their needs and who had strong professional associations with each other. The opposite tendency were the lumpers, who kept similar and somewhat similar occupations under the same administrative structure. While this gave them fewer votes at the top level, it also allowed the leadership to argue for additional resources on account of the larger population under their supervision. The splitters were obviously annoyed by the lumpers hogging resources, while the lumpers were irritated by what they saw as collusion to influence elections by the splitters. Both were asking if the king might adjust the laws for occupational administration slightly to disfavour their opposition, usually by demanding either higher minimum occupation sizes or lower maximum administrative sizes, so as to make the behaviours harder.
Should the king intervene?
[] [Law] Have the law favour splitting
[] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[] [Law] Leave things be
In Redshore the artisans were also having their own new interests as they had been constructing a new set of docks and construction yards to build boats in, sinking brick and stone into the sea to create structures where you could do work on boats in the water, greatly improving the ability to move goods in and out of them. The new docks also definitely opened up the possibility of further refinement in boat construction methods.
Boat construction
[] [Boats] Speed
[] [Boats] Size
[] [Boats] Portability
[] [Boats] Keep working with current designs (+1 Econ, +1 Econ Expansion)
And then... and then the People noted that they basically didn't have any other major worries and could focus their energy on infrastructural work if they so chose. Or possibly to brag to the lowlanders that unlike them they were safe and secure via a well timed salt gift.
Pick an option
[] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
[] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[] [Infra] Main Vineyard
[] [Infra] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
[] [Infra] Main Expand Economy
[X][Fyth] Fertility
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Study Forests
Provinces - [Main] Expand Econ, [Main] Build Docks, [Sec] Study Stars
Stallions - [Main] New Settlement, [Sec] Build Walls, [Sec] Expand Forest
Wall - [Main] New Settlement, [Sec] Build Walls, [Sec] Expand Forest
Things started off innocently enough, the king wanted to introduce the new product of wine into the summer festival. It was like a stronger version of beer, and a little beer had never hurt anyone, so that shouldn't be a problem, right? It would just make things a little merrier as inhibitions were lowered, but it wasn't like this new product could really cause trouble, now was it? They even diluted it with some water to ensure it wasn't too potent.
Unless of course there was a mix up in how much water was needed and the inexperienced people serving the new drink thus told the People that the drink was far less potent than it actually was.
In Valleyhome.
Fortunately generations of city planning meant that the riot didn't get too out of hand, at least not before a chief's son who had been assisting with a project got out the product of that work from storage.
Standing atop a building where he could be seen while friends wafted the smoke from burning coals into the crowd, Gonwyllmyn called out with a rich, booming voice, "People, People! Are you so truly overcome as to lose yourselves like this? Is this not meant to be a joyous occasion, not one for violence?"
This announcement was mostly ignored, although more than a few people paused to look up and take note of the pungent vapours in the air. Gonwyllmyn just kept at it though, until more and more people were paying attention to him than fighting, as well as the honestly kind of obnoxiously sweet smell in the air. Soon enough after that the park he was shouting down at had become something of a sink where confused and possibly angry people drifted in and just sort of got stuck listening to a very charismatic man ask for further peace and calm, as well as appreciating the smells in the air.
By the time the king had the situation under control Gonwyllmyn was being hailed as a hero by everyone who heard his story. About the only ones who were annoyed were the shamans who had asked him to help stockpile the various herbs they had been collecting from some of the forested hills in the western part of Redhills, considering that he had burned the wagonload of the stuff they had been studying. Still, while no one was quite sure how far the riot might have gone without his partial intervention, he had definitely helped minimize the damage, both in the immediate sense and in the sense of creating a lasting black mark upon what the festival was trying to do. Things could be corrected later and the next year would be better as intended.
For his part, Gonwyllmyn was rewarded with a major appointment in coordinating the reconstruction of the damaged areas, where he proved both adept at the administrative work and able to get competing interests to reach compromise. In this, he saw to fresh construction and the implementation of new techniques that allowed new buildings to rise up higher than ever before, allowing more people to fit into the same space and thus providing extra room for parks and fountains to be put in. While some joked that the rioters had ultimately been rewarded for damage to their own homes, this did spark a boom in construction as the city began to renovate itself, new and improved buildings going up higher in order to make more room for beautification projects. As Gonwyllmyn's skills became known and he was moved on to assist and manage with ever greater projects, it became an inevitability that he would be made the heir to the king going forward, having both the connections, the skill, and the charisma to make it a smooth trip.
Heroic Admin and Diplomatic Heir Gained!
+1 Stability
Outside the lands of the People the general situation sounded about the same. The Highlanders tried to use the disruption caused by the recent drought to smash into the over-extended and distracted Thunder Horse, but found themselves getting turned away after achieving early success against the vassals of the Thunder Horse. Part of it was that the Swamp Folk were apparently causing trouble in the south, distracting the Xohyssiri, part of it was that they were trying to get their house in order back in their main territory. Elsewhere it sounded like the newest king for the Metal Workers was making a big push to expand out into the territory around the mountains where they kept their mines. And as for the Hathatyn...
No one was quite sure what was up with them since it sounded like they had been fine, right up until somehow everything spontaneously caught fire - and that was only mild hyperbole, since it sounded like things being on fire was literally one of their big problems. Some suspected that perhaps what forests they had had been stressed by the drought the prior generation, but the People honestly didn't have enough to go on to be able to figure out what might be wrong, but in any case it sounded like at least one tributary city was just straight up gone. Whether engulfed in flame, buried in a landslide, drowned in a flood, or all of the above was difficult to say, but by the sounds of things the people there must have seriously pissed off the gods somehow. This had of course lead to what was frankly a terrifying amount of violent gygo among their southern neighbours. There were of course refugees that the People welcomed as always, but things sounded so bad that villages nominally under the control of the Hathatyn might be persuaded to switch allegiance.
What to do about the Hathatyn?
[] [CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)
[] [CA] Encourage people to flee the conflicts (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
Meanwhile within Valleyhome the new occupational administration was running into some teething problems that were thankfully being voiced openly instead of people scheming in the shadows. Essentially there was a large amount of friction over occupational splitting versus lumping. Splitting was the practice of dividing administration along specialist lines, such as how within Valleyhome the copper workers and the iron workers were under separate leadership. This was used to generate more leadership votes for groups that had a large degree of overlap in their needs and who had strong professional associations with each other. The opposite tendency were the lumpers, who kept similar and somewhat similar occupations under the same administrative structure. While this gave them fewer votes at the top level, it also allowed the leadership to argue for additional resources on account of the larger population under their supervision. The splitters were obviously annoyed by the lumpers hogging resources, while the lumpers were irritated by what they saw as collusion to influence elections by the splitters. Both were asking if the king might adjust the laws for occupational administration slightly to disfavour their opposition, usually by demanding either higher minimum occupation sizes or lower maximum administrative sizes, so as to make the behaviours harder.
Should the king intervene?
[] [Law] Have the law favour splitting
[] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[] [Law] Leave things be
In Redshore the artisans were also having their own new interests as they had been constructing a new set of docks and construction yards to build boats in, sinking brick and stone into the sea to create structures where you could do work on boats in the water, greatly improving the ability to move goods in and out of them. The new docks also definitely opened up the possibility of further refinement in boat construction methods.
Boat construction
[] [Boats] Speed
[] [Boats] Size
[] [Boats] Portability
[] [Boats] Keep working with current designs (+1 Econ, +1 Econ Expansion)
And then... and then the People noted that they basically didn't have any other major worries and could focus their energy on infrastructural work if they so chose. Or possibly to brag to the lowlanders that unlike them they were safe and secure via a well timed salt gift.
Pick an option
[] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
[] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[] [Infra] Main Vineyard
[] [Infra] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
[] [Infra] Main Expand Economy
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A not so small bonsai in form of the goddess ...
- Location
- Illinois
AN is really improving his ninja skills, isn't he?
- Location
- The People's Saltern
Unfortunately, we can't make a giant wooden statue out of one piece because we cut down old trees. We might be able to make one out of multiple trees if we have good wood joining techniques. It really depends on what kind of iron tools the artisans have developed over the years and if they can precisely cut the joints. Otherwise, the statue's connections might be loose and unstable.
Ivory is out of the question since it would be too small for the statues we need for the temple.
Honestly I am tempted by that territorial expansion since it would not be a war of conquest but restoring order and from the sounds of it the Hath are in no position to fight us. They might declare war but they are in no position to fight us.