We're doing that stuff with our two secondaries and Balanced.
And this is the first time it's been done since we had policy. We should spend a few turns just catching up.
I'd rather avoid a True City in Sacred Forest - it might do bad things to the environment there. We need to keep the forest intact to preserve our Sacred Forest megaproject. As such I'd prefer our first extended action aqueduct at Redcoast even though it's LRE 0. It's our second largest settlement anyway, so our best bet for a second True City if we think that's possible/wise. We can then go for less expensive aqueducts like Sacred Forest if we need LRE positive actions.
Having a Coastal Town turn into a True City also sounds like the beginning of a naval power. With such small amount of land to our name, that would help a lot.
 
Once we finish the library, we really should set the provinces to the infrastructure policy. It might even include roads.
 
Why not earlier than that?
Cornering Salt market would be awesome, because we can literally never have too much salt; and aqueducts have their uses too.

The library is more urgent, and is likely to improve the innovation rolls we get from those. Plus, assuming we go MS next turn, finish temple by midturn, and then immediately start the library, we might even mange to get a free switch.
 
We should get at least one (and preferably three) dominant goods before aiming for another true city...
 
TLDR: As long as we remember to do More Boats, Black Soil, cheap Aqueducts, and {M} Expand Forest every now and then, we do NOT have to build more settlements in the long run to keep our economy rolling. In the short run, use Expand Economy to turn Econ Slots into Econ, use More Boats to turn Econ into Econ Slots (with some delay).

Nice post! This helps make clear the importance of the actions that leverage everything we've done up to now into more Econ. Things like the Dam and Black Soil. Their potential in the medium to long term is much higher than the initial appearances.
 
We should get at least one (and preferably three) dominant goods before aiming for another true city...
I very much doubt we'd be able to keep a second True City around even if we wanted to. AN indicated that at our level of tech it would be incredibly hard to impossible to do so. I'm just saying that we shouldn't build an aqueduct in the Sacred Forest without one in Redshore just in case we go low enough in Econ slots that we form a second True City, since having one in Sacred Forest sounds like a bad idea to me.
Nice post! This helps make clear the importance of the actions that leverage everything we've done up to now into more Econ. Things like the Dam and Black Soil. Their potential in the medium to long term is much higher than the initial appearances.
Thanks. And yes, this analysis most definitely makes me want to do a Main or even Secondary Black Soil. It's been so long since we've done so, and I really wonder what is hidden by Additional Effects there.
 
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The library is more urgent, and is likely to improve the innovation rolls we get from those. Plus, assuming we go MS next turn, finish temple by midturn, and then immediately start the library, we might even mange to get a free switch.
That's if we go for Megaproject support though. I am...honestly unsure whether we should?
It depends on how many opportunities are raised by taking it slow; AFAIK, we didn't get a lot of opporunities out of slowly-done megaprojects, so I am doubtful, but if doing GT slowly gives us something nice we wouldn't get if we rushed it....we shall see.

But honestly, we've done projects both slowly (Sacred Forest, The Canal) and fast (The Law, Saltern), and I do not see any serious difference in quality or opportunities gained; so, I think that, barring further evidence to the contrary, speculation about benefits of the slow way is blowing it way out of proportions.


The fact that those same people who talk about 'we should take it slow because otherwise we are DOOOMED', IIRC, were ardent proponents of Balanced and opponents of Megaproject Support long-ish before this thing about benefits of slow approach has appeared is toootally a coincidence.
 
Do we already trade salted fish?

Trade in bulk goods (such as food) is still somewhat beyond us; after the upgrade to the size of the boats we probably can start doing so.

Historically, luxury goods such as spices, silk and the like were the ones most traded because they had a lot of value packed in a small size. Foodstuffs aren't going to be tradeable over land in big quantities any time soon, I think, and over sea only after some more upgrades to the shipping.
 
So I've been thinking about the interplay between Econ and Econ Slots. As a thread we've mostly been focused on things in terms of action costs, which makes a ton of sense because actions are our main constraint in the short run. But there is another way of thinking about things. After all nearly everything we do relies upon Econ - it is the driver of our economy, not surprisingly.

In the past we expanded our Economy in a pretty simple way - we'd use up Econ Slots generating Econ then found new settlements to get more Econ Slots. This is good and all but we're running up against the limits of expanding our territory - while we can certainly expand into the eastern hills more, or into the northern plains, both areas have issues with defending from nomads or other civilizations as well as logistical issues. But with the advent of our True City we've found more ways to generate Econ Slots. I wanted to analyze the current situation and see if building vertical was viable, or in other words whether we could generate enough Econ/Econ Slots to not have to found New Settlements.

I've come up with a new model that I'm calling Long Run Econ, or LRE for short. The main idea behind LRE is that an Econ Slot is the same thing as Econ in the long run. This is because it is very cheap to switch between the two - it costs a single secondary Expand Econ to turn two Econ Slots into Econ, and a single secondary More Boats turns two Econ into two Econ Slots (if you're willing to wait a turn, which we are because this is LONG run Econ) (it also gets one of those Econ back in the long run).

The LRE of an action is thus simply adding the amount of Econ and Econ Slots generated by that action (including the assumption that we'll have one True City while doing that action) and then subtracting the amount of Econ and Econ Slots that the action cost. For example, Expand Econ generates two Econ and costs two Econ Slots so its LRE is 0.

There's no penalty for delayed gains, we're considering the long run here. All other stats are totally ignored by LRE. This is a model that only cares about Econ - not saying those other stats aren't useful, they very much are, I'm just trying to get at other things with this. While it IS possible for other stats to overflow into Econ, by AN that overflow costs Econ Slots and thus doesn't change LRE.

The general view we should have is that in the long run we probably want to be neutral to slightly positive on LRE. Why? Well too much LRE would either lead to too many Econ Slots (which would kill our True City) or it would lead to overflowing Econ. Which is fine until you consider that all of our other stats are getting close/at overflow and they will probably only get more full as we take advantage of Centre of Trade. So we need to worry about overflowing into Marital. Still this is obviously better than going too low on LRE which would strangle our Economy if we couldn't raise it.

With all that said, here are our actions which have negative LRE (assuming one True City, not considering double Mains - not sure exactly how those would work with True City):

{M} Art Patronage: -1
{M} Build Chariots: -1
{M} Build Wall: -1
{M} Expand Holy Site: -1
{M} Expand Snail Cultivation: -1
{S} and {M} Expand Vineyard: -1
{M} Expand Warriors: -1
{M} Improve Annual Festival: -1

Here are our actions which have positive LRE:

New Settlement: Variable. Seems like a +4 for {M} in the low productivity areas we can currently expand to.
{S} or {M} Black Soil: +1. It's possible more Econ Slots are hidden in "additional effects", which would make this better.
{M} Expand Forest: +1
{S} More Boats: +1
{M} More Boats +2
Aqueducts: +2 and +1 for 4 progress and 6 progress Aqueducts respectively
Dam: Unknown, likely to be positive with Chinampas and better waterflow for current farming, although it probably depends on where we put it.

The actions involving colonies are probably positive LRE but hard to tell how they interact with True City:

Found Colony, Trading Post, March: +1?
Integrate March: Unknown, but probably high
Support Subordinate: 1 for {S}, 0 for {M}?

Analysis: Not too many things are LRE negative honestly! Unfortunately we have been/will be doing things like Vineyards, Festival, and Snails which are negative LRE. The positive LRE action that is the cheapest action wise is obviously New Settlement, but we DO have plenty of other options if we don't want to expand too much further, with More Boats and Black Soil the cheapest choices action wise (and if you think Black Soil is hiding Econ slots it is the very best, which I think is quite possible). In the short run adding a settlement in the Eastern Hills or Blackriver makes sense if we get too low on LRE and don't want to spend the actions on more expensive items, but in the long run I think it is very possible to keep our economy rolling great without expansion as long as we remember to do some of these LRE positive actions every now and then.

TLDR: As long as we remember to do More Boats, Black Soil, cheap Aqueducts, and {M} Expand Forest every now and then, we do NOT have to build more settlements in the long run to keep our economy rolling. In the short run, use Expand Economy to turn Econ Slots into Econ, use More Boats to turn Econ into Econ Slots (with some delay).
While this is a very good analysis, there are two additional factors in mind:

Action slots are still the harshest bottleneck we have to deal with.

Wealth. AN has noted that sometime in the undefined future, econ and diplomacy will fuse into wealth. How this interacts with various factors is entirely unknown at this point. It is difficult to say how close this is to happening, but it is strongly plausible that building up trade is a possible route that leads to this happening sooner.
Wait.
So, True City + Boats = Infinite Econ Slots?
With the way the actions currently work, yes. That being said, expect the way actions work to change as the situation surrounding them and the state of our technology and society changes.
 
Trade in bulk goods (such as food) is still somewhat beyond us; after the upgrade to the size of the boats we probably can start doing so.

Historically, luxury goods such as spices, silk and the like were the ones most traded because they had a lot of value packed in a small size. Foodstuffs aren't going to be tradeable over land in big quantities any time soon, I think, and over sea only after some more upgrades to the shipping.
Thx; salted fish would trade two things: seafood (fish) and salt.
 
That's if we go for Megaproject support though. I am...honestly unsure whether we should?
It depends on how many opportunities are raised by taking it slow; AFAIK, we didn't get a lot of opporunities out of slowly-done megaprojects, so I am doubtful, but if doing GT slowly gives us something nice we wouldn't get if we rushed it....we shall see.

But honestly, we've done projects both slowly (Sacred Forest, The Canal) and fast (The Law, Saltern), and I do not see any serious difference in quality or opportunities gained; so, I think that, barring further evidence to the contrary, speculation about benefits of the slow way is blowing it way out of proportions.


The fact that those same people who talk about 'we should take it slow because otherwise we are DOOOMED', IIRC, were ardent proponents of Balanced and opponents of Megaproject Support long-ish before this thing about benefits of slow approach has appeared is toootally a coincidence.

I've previously advocated megaproject support. Then I found out about the possible golden age bonus for megaprojects and prioritized that instead. After that, I found out about the differences between a rushed/slow megaproject and I tried to separate them between fast/slow. Today we've learned that it's not about penalties, but more about opportunities. (Which may translate to "penalties" in the sense that we missed an opportunity that would help in the future). We can just do megaprojects at a moderate pace instead of all-in 1-turn completion.

However, I'm against Balanced policy as only allowing Expand Econ to be doubled by the Law isn't what I want. We're nearly at the point where Doubled Expand Econ will bring out Econ Expansion slots to a low level. Some policies come with free changes under certain conditions and using that makes them action neutral. We also lose out on free Symphony actions if we don't use other policies.

It's currently a small window of peace while the nomads are gone and the lowlanders are recovering and I'd like to leverage that as much as possible.


P.S. The Temple Statues are probably going to be terrible since we haven't dumped many actions into Art Patronage.
 
P.S. The Temple Statues are probably going to be terrible since we haven't dumped many actions into Art Patronage.

Ouch.
That's true.
On the bright side, it will have robust architecture and the most pleasant temple garden forest ever.

Overall, I would prefer either Trade Policy or Infrastructure to get more salt.
Or Expansion into Defensive, because Lowlands duking it out means we can do it pretty safely - they are too busy killing each other to pester us.
 
The Temple Statues are probably going to be terrible since we haven't dumped many actions into Art Patronage
But we've had Gold Level Art at least for several turns and we have access to superior carving tools and minerals for mining better stone.

It's not going to be perfection but it's going to be better than anything our neighbors have made so far
 
While this is a very good analysis, there are two additional factors in mind:

Action slots are still the harshest bottleneck we have to deal with.

Wealth. AN has noted that sometime in the undefined future, econ and diplomacy will fuse into wealth. How this interacts with various factors is entirely unknown at this point. It is difficult to say how close this is to happening, but it is strongly plausible that building up trade is a possible route that leads to this happening sooner.
With the way the actions currently work, yes. That being said, expect the way actions work to change as the situation surrounding them and the state of our technology and society changes.
Oh, I absolutely agree that looking at things in terms of action costs remains the most valuable model. But that doesn't mean we can't look at things in another fashion as well.

Yea, this will all certainly change in the future. But I feel like we won't fuse Econ and Diplomacy too soon. Food will probably remain the most important bottleneck in our society for millennia. In the US, around 75% of the labor force was farming in 1800 - it didn't fall to 50% until 1880 (http://www.nber.org/chapters/c1567.pdf). Now this probably happened a century or more before in more settled countries like the UK (can't seem to find data before 1800 for England). It's very possible we will once again be well before the curve on this one, but I still don't think it will happen in the next few dozen turns. I could see Diplo turning into Wealth or otherwise changing radically soon, on the other hand. I just don't think it will fuse with Econ in the near future.
 
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But we've had Gold Level Art at least for several turns and we have access to superior carving tools and minerals for mining better stone.

It's not going to be perfection but it's going to be better than anything our neighbors have made so far

Eh. Our list of art techs is not stellar, and we've done an Art Patronage....once, as a Secondary, to get either kilns or glazed pottery.
Our art is mostly from Diplomacy overflow, which means....I dunno, we have enough luxuries to make opulent (for the time period), but relatively artless stuff?
 
We mostly buy art with salt.
It shouldn't be that hard to copy some techniques, especially because due to our open borders immigration policy we should have pilfered quite a few art techniques from our neighbors, especially now, in the wake of a drought.

After all if we can get Bronze from an immigrant shouldn't we also get some art and sculpturing techniques?
 
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Rushing a megaproject does have the nice effect of giving us the megaproject's benefits sooner, but it isn't that important to me. I'd rather always be working on a megaproject of some sort than going between manic periods of growth and bust.
 
Rushing a megaproject does have the nice effect of giving us the megaproject's benefits sooner, but it isn't that important to me. I'd rather always be working on a megaproject of some sort than going between manic periods of growth and bust.

Keep in mind that that means always locking ourselves out of an action. If something catches fire we'd only have two secondaries to fix it.
 
Perhaps I am underestimating stuff, but statues shouldnt require much innovation to look decent as you can just copy stuff 1 to 1 from a model. All the 2d stuff is probably going to look terrible though.
 
I'd rather avoid a True City in Sacred Forest - it might do bad things to the environment there. We need to keep the forest intact to preserve our Sacred Forest megaproject. As such I'd prefer our first extended action aqueduct at Redshore even though it's LRE 0. It's our second largest settlement anyway, so our best bet for a second True City if we think that's possible/wise. We can go for less expensive aqueducts like Sacred Forest after that if we need LRE positive actions.
I'm not sure about the harmful environmental consequences. Sacred Forest is currently defined to be religiously dedicated to the idea of studying and maintaining the environment, with a major shaman leaning to boot.

I'd be more concerned about the political consequences personally. Putting a lot of people together tends to create a lot of politically exploitable situations, which might have some negative effects on religion. Less of a concern after Library is built there though, since it'd strongly color the trades that Sacred Forest would support towards the intellectual/spiritual.

That said there is basically no reason not to make Redshore a True City first.
Thx; salted fish would trade two things: seafood (fish) and salt.
Salted fish actually trades for less value than salt. Unless you're making up for bulk cargo it's of little trade value at present.
However, I'm against Balanced policy as only allowing Expand Econ to be doubled by the Law isn't what I want. We're nearly at the point where Doubled Expand Econ will bring out Econ Expansion slots to a low level. Some policies come with free changes under certain conditions and using that makes them action neutral. We also lose out on free Symphony actions if we don't use other policies
Uh, Balanced Policy's boosted Econ Expansion is the only thing keeping the Economy cost of True City up at present. We'd have crashed Econ otherwise.
It LOOKS low, but it's not actually nearly that low since True City is currently generating 4-6 Econ Slots every turn from churn
 
Some policies come with free changes under certain conditions and using that makes them action neutral.
I mean, aside from "you've been attacked, switch to offense/defense?" or other external things giving free switches, none of them are really "action neutral", since we only get the free switch during a midturn when the province actions that turn couldn't do their "job" due to lack of resources or slots...in which case we almost certainly lose out on the Law bonus that turn, so we're effectively trading a regular secondary action (from taking the switch option) for a province secondary action (from losing out of the law bonus), at the cost of the provinces waiting another turn to switch to our new priority.
 
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