There are technically noticeable comets at some point once a turn, and they spook people, but nothing like the doom comet has shown up since. Also, the appearance of comets are usually only particularly disruptive when they align with some other significant issue that gets people really freaking out.
Aha! Speculated as such many times before but confirmation at last!

We get a Comet every turn regardless. If shit happens, and people can't find something to blame, they blame the comet.
If the Shamans can tell you that "yes, a Comet will appear this year and we've already done the preparations and appeasement rituals", then people don't panic. The shamans have it all in hand.

King-killer comets(comets bright and impressive enough to attract notice, possible linked to a meteor shower) are often actually visible a fairly long time before they become extremely noticeable to the general population,
Edit: Did we even rush the GT? Or are you saying that these would have been greater issues had we?
AN had mentioned that all the shaman arguing would have become somewhat...compressed. So instead of getting our detailed progression of picking a site, picking a chief god, then picking the aspect, we might have gotten a choice of site and a choice of chief god, then the aspect simply gets set by the site's preference.
Mountain is a bad-ish thing to rush. It's pure engineering which means we need enough time to sort it out and make sure appropriate stones are cut and placed correctly. Basically like the Dam, but we can sit on it for less turns if we've built the Dam beforehand, as they would seem to largely overlap.
Naw, a pyramid/ziggurut is about as uncomplicated a structure as you could build at all. Less a feat of engineering and more a feat of logistics.
 
Naw, a pyramid/ziggurut is about as uncomplicated a structure as you could build at all. Less a feat of engineering and more a feat of logistics.
-The Mountain - Pure engineering/logistics project. Rush it, all you get is missing out on some innovation rolls at worst.
*rolls eyes* I was using your choice to tie engineering and logistics together.

Still need to shape the stones appropriately and pick ones visually pleasant for surfacing. Agree that the rest of it is just a matter of labor and doing the appropriate math to make a pyramid out of a bunch of rocks. Which is probably a somewhat difficult engineering project for the time, especially if they make it hollow inside so that it's actually useful, which ruins some of the benefits of a pyramidal shape. Probably easier than a temple, though.

we might have gotten a choice of site and a choice of chief god, then the aspect simply gets set by the site's preference.
Agreed; would appreciate it if you adjust your phrasing in the future so that it's less confusing. Assuming that it wasn't entirely my fault, of course, which is quite possible.
 
I personally want to do more science. There are oodles of regular projects we still need to catch up on such as Trails, Walls, Watchtowers, Snail Cultivation, Salterns, Surveys, Forests, etc.

There is too much to do to be focusing on megaprojects ;_;
 
Ok. This sounds like the 'social changes megaprojects' to me; basically bluefur's ideas.
I'd argue it's more based on a sliding scale, based on how innovative the idea is vs how much it's just a 'really big version of another project.' Looking back, the latter actually applies to most of our projects.
  • Sacred Forest: Effectively a massive level of manage forest done in a row.
  • Stone Age Canal: A larger form of our irrigation, we already understood most of what was needed to do it, though we may have lost something, it seems unlikely.
  • Sacred Warding: Interestingly, this is something we likely greatly benefited from by doing it as fast as we could, as otherwise it's exact purpose and means may have been lessened.
  • Written Code of Laws (Copper Age): We may have lost some parts of law enforcement here by doing it fast, which is sad, but we didn't really feel like we had a choice at the time.
  • Ancient Saltern: Maybe we lost some innovation roll opportunities, but we did gain rush builders by doing it so fast. The project, though, was based on a lot of things we already understood, so we didn't miss out on too much most likely.
  • The Garden: Similar to Stone Age Canal, but a bit more complicated. We may have missed out on some things like dedicated actual gardens by doing it so fast.
All in all, the only massively innovative megaproject we did was Law. Many of our forward megaprojects, however, are more innovative. The social ones, though, are definitely the ones that would benefit the most by doing them slow, outside of PttS as Umi has pointed out and I didn't quite realize the full ramifications of.

Eh, Library will be fine if rushed, the scribes will sort through the content and purify it over time. Biggest issues are likely to be relatively inferior architecture, less nice storage, worse windows, etc.
Agreed, there is little to be gained by not rushing the library. Still might not rush it, mind, because we want the provinces to do other stuff. I'm also still wondering if a sudden -5 to art and mysticism can stop a golden age? We're likely to be in one by the end of this current megaproject.
Mountain is a bad-ish thing to rush. It's pure engineering which means we need enough time to sort it out and make sure appropriate stones are cut and placed correctly. Basically like the Dam, but we can sit on it for less turns if we've built the Dam beforehand, as they would seem to largely overlap.
Pyramids are basically stacked retaining walls. The actual, well I'll save that for my reply to veekie...
PttS definitely needs a shitton of time. Regardless of how long we've done Study Stars we've probably been losing data. We also need time for the shamans who know the Stars best to cooperate with the artisans in order to maintain accuracy. Furthermore, doing it slowly means we can extend the Study Stars chain during its construction. And, frankly, the variety of benefits that PttS can provide means that we should drag it out as long as possible in order to develop higher math, navigation, etc. Better math is more important than better engineering.
Agreed, and realizing that PttS is basically going to lead to the innovation of geometry, I think it's critical we do it before any major engineering megaproject.
Naw, a pyramid/ziggurut is about as uncomplicated a structure as you could build at all. Less a feat of engineering and more a feat of logistics.
Actually, sitting on it for awhile means we can probably choose to give it more of a purpose and dedicate certain actions to it. Maybe make it a religious feature or a small settlement or a large garden or something.
 
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I'm not SURE about this. I don't really know what it takes beyond 'move big stone monolith'.
You can't accurately map stars well without something like geometry. Having a good map of the stars would also lead to innovations in navigation, which is huge for sea trade. If we make it good enough we can even predict eclipses, which is huge on a mysticism level for something that seems so random to most of the world. These are all higher end benefits we could gain from PttS, but if we were to just erect some monoliths for general yearly events, we would be unlikely to develop them. We stand to gain a lot by taking our time on it.
 
Honestly, the Ymaryn are their own unique thing. We are not like any other civilizations, historical or otherwise.
YES!

Ymaryn culture as a whole is basically unique, but parts of it certainly relate to various cultures that have developed all over the globe over the course of history.
  1. Native American peoples (General) - Nature worship in the context of individualized spirits of locations and animals.
  2. Salish Indians - Crow as a trickster spirit.
  3. Celtic Peoples - Language and nature worship. If we had gone into human sacrifice early on we would have been much more like them.
  4. Hinduism/Abrahamic Religions/Shintoism/Tolkien Cosmology - These are just a few of the religions that resemble the Ymaryn religion, though to be frank, Tolkien's cosmology is the closest.
  5. Greeks/Islamic Caliphates - Focus on science and wisdom as a virtue.
Culturally that's really all that can be pulled from other real world/created cultures. There's no verified incidence of communal ownership (that I could find).

Now as for our environment? based on what @Academia Nut has stated previously we live in an area that basically resembles the nation of Georgia if it existed on the 37th parallel. As a result of that we have a semi-tropical environment reminiscent of the climate in the eastern Mediterranean (if it was a great deal wetter). We even have cedar trees. The hills we live in remind me a bit of the mebanese mountains and the Judean mountain of the eastern Mediterranean.

So, we live in:
  • not!Georgia
  • wet!Israel
  • On the not!Black Sea
  • On the 37th parallel (ish)
 
I believe the Inca do communal ownership. Farming equipment and tech is provided for by the state, and they do step farms.
 
*rolls eyes* I was using your choice to tie engineering and logistics together.

Still need to shape the stones appropriately and pick ones visually pleasant for surfacing. Agree that the rest of it is just a matter of labor and doing the appropriate math to make a pyramid out of a bunch of rocks. Which is probably a somewhat difficult engineering project for the time, especially if they make it hollow inside so that it's actually useful, which ruins some of the benefits of a pyramidal shape. Probably easier than a temple, though.
Well, even the iconic Egyptian Pyramids were near completely solid stone. Making interior chambers in a pyramid of significant size is pretty difficult, though also a problem solvable by simply using far larger pieces of stone such that you can create interior gaps without compromising integrity.

Agreed; would appreciate it if you adjust your phrasing in the future so that it's less confusing. Assuming that it wasn't entirely my fault, of course, which is quite possible.
Eh, full definitions just make me sound even more anal, I'll pass and clarify as it comes up, but that way lies triple nested brackets.
Actually, sitting on it for awhile means we can probably choose to give it more of a purpose and dedicate certain actions to it. Maybe make it a religious feature or a small settlement or a large garden or something.
That makes sense. Come to think of it, it might have some synergy if made after a Place to the Stars.
Culturally that's really all that can be pulled from other real world/created cultures. There's no verified incidence of communal ownership (that I could find).
We also have an early-chinese bureaucracy
 
I personally want to do more science. There are oodles of regular projects we still need to catch up on such as Trails, Walls, Watchtowers, Snail Cultivation, Salterns, Surveys, Forests, etc.

There is too much to do to be focusing on megaprojects ;_;
We're doing that stuff with our two secondaries and Balanced.
 
Well, even the iconic Egyptian Pyramids were near completely solid stone. Making interior chambers in a pyramid of significant size is pretty difficult, though also a problem solvable by simply using far larger pieces of stone such that you can create interior gaps without compromising integrity.
Honestly, mayan and aztec ziggurats are more iconic to me.

Also, I said phrasing and not definitions. You sounded like you were saying we had already rushed the great temple. More attention to your phrasing would prevent such conclusions, along with many other problems. But you're usually at work, so I guess that much attention is generally impossible.
 
-The Library - It's gathering knowledge from across the country to consolidate. We can expect some of this to be resolved due to the Great Temple, since we'd have a center of religion to define What Is Truth, but rushing it probably means less rigor over what CONTENT makes it in because of the sheer number of scribes with less oversight being practical.
You mean we might get dicks and snails doodled in the margins?

I say we do it. It'll be a funny story for our descendants.
 
Is there a citation for this? I thought it was just more wild speculation that everyone's treating as fact

It's worth mentioning that we have rushed exactly one megaproject, and got huge benefits from rushing it. And it's never had a failure large enough to warrant a mention in an update, in spite of requiring extensive underwater walls in salt water.
If we had rushed the Temple to completion this turn, would we have had the same decisions (possibly prompting multiple mid-turns) or would the Temple have been more barren?

Hmmmm... I would say that it would have involved intense theological debates.

How big is multi-facet-ness in our mythos? I mean, Crow is seen as a three faced guy, but he's also someone who sits outside the natural order. Are there any other gods or spirits that are widely believed to be multi-part?

It's not yet significant, but the temple and people questioning things (especially now that they are really realizing that their conceptualizations of the spirits has variation between provinces) is really starting to crystallize theology.
We could have rushed through the Temple and then we would have had to deal with the last few questions regarding Temple placement, the god in the center and their depiction in a much shorter time frame.

Eventually the king had to step in and set a deadline to give an answer or he would choose, just so that the work could continue and he wouldn't have to continue authorizing the deployment of warriors to break up the small but vigorous riots that kept breaking out among red faced elders. Fortunately the rest of the People seemed more bemused than upset by this.
Our shamans have already been fighting each other and it risked a stability hit even at this slow speed.

Edit (Salterns): Salterns don't require deep retaining walls. It's better for them to be in a wide but flatter area to evaporate more quickly (Surface area exposed to sun vs volume of water to evaporate). The main thing is a floodgate to control water into the area and possibly walls for high tide (Though we probably want the location that floods only during high tide so our walls can be shorter). Waves can be mitigated with break waters (large boulders in this case) in front of the ocean-facing retaining wall. It's a different sort of engineering than a Dam which has to hold up the pressure of the entire river/reservoir behind it.
 
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Also, I said phrasing and not definitions. You sounded like you were saying we had already rushed the great temple. More attention to your phrasing would prevent such conclusions, along with many other problems. But you're usually at work, so I guess that much attention is generally impossible.
Work AND posting from phone with my off hand(because my right hand is visible from outside the office).
So...yeah.

Now on more fun stuff:
 
I'm hoping we get a heroic King soon after we establish the library.

Get an Epic of Gilgamesh going.
Edit: Did we even rush the GT? Or are you saying that these would have been greater issues had we?


Eh, Library will be fine if rushed, the scribes will sort through the content and purify it over time. Biggest issues are likely to be relatively inferior architecture, less nice storage, worse windows, etc.

Mountain is a bad-ish thing to rush. It's pure engineering which means we need enough time to sort it out and make sure appropriate stones are cut and placed correctly. Basically like the Dam, but we can sit on it for less turns if we've built the Dam beforehand, as they would seem to largely overlap.

PttS definitely needs a shitton of time. Regardless of how long we've done Study Stars we've probably been losing data. We also need time for the shamans who know the Stars best to cooperate with the artisans in order to maintain accuracy. Furthermore, doing it slowly means we can extend the Study Stars chain during its construction. And, frankly, the variety of benefits that PttS can provide means that we should drag it out as long as possible in order to develop higher math, navigation, etc. Better math is more important than better engineering.


So, the way that I'm interpreting this is that Not!Egypt is Dominant in the Cat luxury.

We should do a sailing mission to import cats ASAP. Though we might not want to ruin our native ecosystem with them...

Would doing PttS reduce the impact of minor and Doom Comets?


Oh, we're using "great comet" differently. I'm using "great comet" to mean "things that make people freak out" not "noticeably a comet rather than a shooting star."

Also, isn't it cool how shooting stars don't lead to our death due to our dense atmosphere?
Liked entirely for the idea of a Cat luxury good.
 
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So I've been thinking about the interplay between Econ and Econ Slots. As a thread we've mostly been focused on things in terms of action costs, which makes a ton of sense because actions are our main constraint in the short run. But there is another way of thinking about things. After all nearly everything we do relies upon Econ - it is the driver of our economy, not surprisingly.

In the past we expanded our Economy in a pretty simple way - we'd use up Econ Slots generating Econ then found new settlements to get more Econ Slots. This is good and all but we're running up against the limits of expanding our territory - while we can certainly expand into the eastern hills more, or into the northern plains, both areas have issues with defending from nomads or other civilizations as well as logistical issues. But with the advent of our True City we've found more ways to generate Econ Slots. I wanted to analyze the current situation and see if building vertical was viable, or in other words whether we could generate enough Econ/Econ Slots to not have to found New Settlements.

I've come up with a new model that I'm calling Long Run Econ, or LRE for short. The main idea behind LRE is that an Econ Slot is the same thing as Econ in the long run. This is because it is very cheap to switch between the two - it costs a single secondary Expand Econ to turn two Econ Slots into Econ, and a single secondary More Boats turns two Econ into two Econ Slots (if you're willing to wait a turn, which we are because this is LONG run Econ) (it also gets one of those Econ back in the long run).

The LRE of an action is thus simply adding the amount of Econ and Econ Slots generated by that action (including the assumption that we'll have one True City while doing that action) and then subtracting the amount of Econ and Econ Slots that the action cost. For example, Expand Econ generates two Econ and costs two Econ Slots so its LRE is 0.

There's no penalty for delayed gains, we're considering the long run here. All other stats are totally ignored by LRE. This is a model that only cares about Econ - not saying those other stats aren't useful, they very much are, I'm just trying to get at other things with this. While it IS possible for other stats to overflow into Econ, by AN that overflow costs Econ Slots and thus doesn't change LRE.

The general view we should have is that in the long run we probably want to be neutral to slightly positive on LRE. Why? Well too much LRE would either lead to too many Econ Slots (which would kill our True City) or it would lead to overflowing Econ. Which is fine until you consider that all of our other stats are getting close/at overflow and they will probably only get more full as we take advantage of Centre of Trade. So we need to worry about overflowing into Marital. Still this is obviously better than going too low on LRE which would strangle our Economy if we couldn't raise it.

With all that said, here are our actions which have negative LRE (assuming one True City, not considering double Mains - not sure exactly how those would work with True City):

{M} Art Patronage: -1
{M} Build Chariots: -1
{M} Build Wall: -1
{M} Expand Holy Site: -1
{M} Expand Snail Cultivation: -1
{S} and {M} Expand Vineyard: -1
{M} Expand Warriors: -1
{M} Improve Annual Festival: -1

Here are our actions which have positive LRE:

New Settlement: Variable. Seems like a +4 for {M} in the low productivity areas we can currently expand to.
{S} or {M} Black Soil: +1. It's possible more Econ Slots are hidden in "additional effects", which would make this better.
{M} Expand Forest: +1
{S} More Boats: +1
{M} More Boats +2
Aqueducts: +2 and +1 for 4 progress and 6 progress Aqueducts respectively
Dam: Unknown, likely to be positive with Chinampas and better waterflow for current farming, although it probably depends on where we put it.

The actions involving colonies are probably positive LRE but hard to tell how they interact with True City:

Found Colony, Trading Post, March: +1?
Integrate March: Unknown, but probably high
Support Subordinate: 1 for {S}, 0 for {M}?

Analysis: Not too many things are LRE negative honestly! Unfortunately we have been/will be doing things like Vineyards, Festival, and Snails which are negative LRE. The positive LRE action that is the cheapest action wise is obviously New Settlement, but we DO have plenty of other options if we don't want to expand too much further, with More Boats and Black Soil the cheapest choices action wise (and if you think Black Soil is hiding Econ slots it is the very best, which I think is quite possible). In the short run adding a settlement in the Eastern Hills or Blackriver makes sense if we get too low on LRE and don't want to spend the actions on more expensive items, but in the long run I think it is very possible to keep our economy rolling great without expansion as long as we remember to do some of these LRE positive actions every now and then.

TLDR: As long as we remember to do More Boats, Black Soil, cheap Aqueducts, and {M} Expand Forest every now and then, we do NOT have to build more settlements in the long run to keep our economy rolling. In the short run, use Expand Economy to turn Econ Slots into Econ, use More Boats to turn Econ into Econ Slots (with some delay).
 
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Wait.
So, True City + Boats = Infinite Econ Slots?
Not quite since we'd lose True City at 11 Econ Slots. But True City + Boats can totally pay for all of those high Econ things we want to build, as long as we turn slots into Econ with Expand Econ or overflowing other stats as well.
 
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As soon as we do start a golden age (or before it would work too, definitely before we finish the library) I want to build the Sacred Forest aqueduct. It costs 2 secondaries and 4 econ for +6 econ expansion assuming one True City, and let's us get two True Cities, where they'll likely start yoyo-ing in and out of the status since most actions will be econ-slot positive.
 
As soon as we do start a golden age (or before it would work too, definitely before we finish the library) I want to build the Sacred Forest aqueduct. It costs 2 secondaries and 4 econ for +6 econ expansion assuming one True City, and let's us get two True Cities, where they'll likely start yoyo-ing in and out of the status since most actions will be econ-slot positive.
I'd rather avoid a True City in Sacred Forest - it might do bad things to the environment there. We need to keep the forest intact to preserve our Sacred Forest megaproject. As such I'd prefer our first extended action aqueduct at Redshore even though it's LRE 0. It's our second largest settlement anyway, so our best bet for a second True City if we think that's possible/wise. We can go for less expensive aqueducts like Sacred Forest after that if we need LRE positive actions.
 
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