BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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You gonna try to get the PttS done slow too? It's another that really benefits from it. The precision needed is, literally, astronomical.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Mists of Albion
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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- Lickwidget
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Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Yep although according to wikipedia it's sophisticated enough that there were earlier similar mechanisms.
Not entirely. It's already swallowed multiple civilizational collapses whole. In fact, a fair chunk of their environmental recovery was the lowlands pretty much dying off entirely for a century in the middle and allowing nature to rebound. The Xohyssiri's capital is the ONLY continuous structure left down there.
Also, the dam provides a reservoir of water with enough pressure backing it to actually start running enough water into the Eastern Hills to forestize it.
Pointless generally, aqueducts require controlled water pressure and the more sources the harder to control it. Generally what you do is create a dam at higher altitudes, aggregating regional minor water sources, then pipe water from THAT to local destinations.
As far as I know we've never done it there. We've done partial surveys of Redshore, Redhill Sacred Forest and Northshore, but overall the thread had never been particularly excited about doing those except during the iron phase.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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There had too be. That thing is an amazing device. I dearly want to visit it at some point in my life, because damn.
If you want the very oldest "clocks" for astronomical purposes, look to Stonehenge and Other Places Whose Names I cannot remember. They kept track of things like the procession of the sun across the sky and the procession of the moon, as well as the location of the North Star and how the constellations moved. Really, really, really long term clocks i.e calendars.
E: Another cool one, and that Place to the Stars is based on by word of AN is Göbekli Tepe. An artificial hill which has the world's oldest known megaliths. It was likely a holy site but not a settlement and beyond that it's purpose is a mystery.
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- Location
- The People's Saltern
Linked to most of my reasoning.
Try to finish the Temple in the Golden Age.
- Ignore the Temple bonus unless it's really good. We can do it later.
- Possible GA bonus.
- Definitely want this.
- Record ideas/start the path to literacy.
- Moderate pace.
- Don't want to drop out of GA during it.
- Make sure we have the resources to rush.
- Survey/study could turn up useful materials. Also lets us grab what we can from the reservoir area.
- Not too much study metal though. Too much into metal and we can't lose martial quickly enough.
- Trade things
- Saltern
- Possible minor improvement of dam through saltern experience
- Probably a 8 econ saltern that can be surveyed for.
- Trading post + wine + docks + dye
- Dominant for constant income
- Could do some of these before Library to maintain Golden Age.
- Saltern
- Art Patronage for waterproofing materials?
- Early Iron Bringers gives us chances at materials advancement
- Hopefully improve actions
- Maybe a Shrine for Mathulmyn, God of Kings
- Trails to improve logistics
- Support Subordinates needs logistical upgrades
- More provinces
- More actions
- New settlements.
- Shed martial to integrate Stallions
Mountain
No, not really. This goes after.
Great Dam or PTTS
Eat Hathatyn
- They trade in our resources and are right next door.
- They have tin.
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AFAIK, recent discoveries point to asshole nomads being the cause. Or at least a mass migration of violent assholes.
The Egyptians had some recordings of the 'Sea People' left and archeologists found that people on Crete moved their villages way up the mountains. Utterly shitty places to life, but very defensible.
Of course, climate change might have been a trigger for that migration.
As we've seen, our own nomads here cited bad weather as one of the reasons to raid.
It's reasonable. When grazing is plentiful, the Nomads raid for glory, and wealth. They trade for luxuries and status symbols, using their large expansive range to be trade centers
However, Nomads have no strategic food reserves, their food is the herds that they follow over grazing, so if a drought hits already arid steppes, they HAVE to raid settled peoples for food, as the herds are slaughtered for relatively small amounts of food.
The same goes for settled people. When given a choice between watching their strategic grain reserves dwindle...why not go over and murder the guy next door, claim THEIR reserves.
Yeah. But it's still fucking weird because they were in the Mediterranean. It's not like that place lacks in fish.
Maybe a chain reaction that they got displaced by someone else that got displaced. There were apparently multiple factions of Sea People attacking that were working together.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Well that all makes sense. Why no Games? The two sides I've seen brought up are that it could provide a release valve for our Martial problem, or give us another way to generate it through Festivals. Why do you not want to?
The Temple I have zero issues with your reasoning, though my tired mushy brain doesn't quite know what you mean by "Temple bonus". Same thing for the Library, I'd maybe want to rush it through kicks? Dunno, might not be the right environment for it, gonna have to see what our stab is looking to be like. Setting the Provinces to Mega Support may be useful if we suspect trouble but want to keep our Stability for maintaining the Golden Age. Another note is that it might have mid turn choices like the Temple did. Various arguments over what has enough worth to be stored and all that.
Heh on the study metal. I see the point but we are likely to generate some mild metal improvements anyway since we just started wondering about alloys. Oh well, just gotta deal with it.
For the trade thing I am firmly in the boat of being careful not to go above three goods we are dominant in (salt, wine, dye). More than that and we as the State literally don't have enough actions to regain dominant again if all three of them drop for some catastrophic reason, like meeting a super rich group who does all three. I like it that we seem to agree though that going for a Saltern is the best idea, even if it is technically the most resource expensive, while leaving the others to the Provinces.
I'm curious to see what docks provides for "increasing trade power". Don't really think the Saltern will provide help with the Dam, different stresses and loading set up. Art Patronage for waterproof could also be supplemented by Study Forests and Survey. Several possible materials that may work for waterproofing are hidden in all three.
I'd also probably want to pop directly into Library, to cement the religious ideas we are coming up with right now.
The palace I agree with your points. I really want to build a Temple to Mathulmyn there, in either of his guises is fine, mostly. The improvment of actions I consider a given. The Centralization boost I think we will get from it will be nice. Maybe we will get an extended project to build Governor Palaces in provinces, which will lower Centralization.
I want to fix the road problem, but don't want new provinces besides the fact that I don't think we can create one. It kinda just worsens the problem. Really hoping for a Cent dropping action to come out of the Golden Age, especially if we go into it with gold Cent. Really hoping. Using Support Subordinate a few times is workable, gonna have to play some funny bunny with our Martial to integrate them and then put down another March to the NE.
Mountain's cool. Kinda interchangeable with Games for me.
PttS is probably not gonna help with math in the way that most helps the Dam but it will help with precision, being a calendar. Totally agree that we need to do these slowly. Pay as much attention to doing them right the first time as possible darnit.
Hahaha funny on the Hathatyn. I'm all for it if they give us the opportunity, or we see the chance to trade with them so much we can diplo-annex them.
My only big caveat is that all of the spacing is flexible enough in my head, even when I agree with your reasoning as to the individual pieces and why we should do them, that I am more inclined to put the Dam before the Palace. I figure when we do the Palace or Dam or PttS they can be shifted around rather easily in your plan without breaking something so, I feel comfortable doing it before. Really though I'd be kinda okay with this being what ends up happening. I'd just vote for Dam for after trading and before Palace.
Well a big enough Waaagh! stops being able to feed itself when stationary, and has to keep moving. *shrug* I figure it was a combination of migration plus climate screwery plus iron being introduced that caused the Collapse. Or something to that effect.
- Location
- Staring into the void
This is very close to my preferred order.
- Location
- The People's Saltern
No Games because my expectation is that it raises Martial. Nobody really dies in it (probably) and it seems to be reinforced by Honour of Elites. We might actually need to dump Martial even earlier since Martial 10 + (Econ 14 is max I think? Econ 14/3 = Martial 4) caps us.
Here's the full question and answer for context. We don't know if there's an additional effect for doing a megaproject during a Golden Age, but there might be. It's the shiny that's right on our doorstep.
For trade, I just want Saltern, Dye and Wine. If we end up getting Honey, we're probably going to dominate that by virtue of being the only major civilization in the area with an abundance of trees.
The Centralization issue is really iffy since we're not sure how to dump it. Once we lose the festival bonus, it's going to be very hard to raise stability. I do want a targeted [Main] New Trails - Stallion Tribe to connect them to the rest of our nation, if only to make it easier to Support the other Marches.
We might actually want the Mountain's prestige for another periphery state, though it's definitely going to give some construction upgrades. Possibly some logistics too, because all that material has to come from somewhere.
The PttS in my mind is more for education and having a source of a constant chain. I predict something special when we actually hit 5 chain only because AN has given us a second chance at it.
Hath is unlikely to bump us to dominant in anything they trade in that we don't already have dominance in. My only concern is that they might trade with a different dominant civ (to their southwest) and annexing the Hathatyn puts the dominant civ in our range and knocks us out of the dominance.
There's definitely a bit of flex with things after the Library, but that's my preferred order. Though in reality, we might need to do the whole integrate/found March thing much earlier because of nomads.
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Integration wise, we need to focus on internal connectivity more, or face splintering risks when stressed. We've been seeing a lot of "people in X province don't know Y province practices because nobody goes there" recently.
-Drought hits. Nomads in the area raid the settled peoples to gain food stores, stressing the settled peoples' ability to see off the Nomads while maintaining enough food.
-Nomadic conquerers realizes that they're STILL running out of food(and fighting all the leftover nomads), so they hit the Coastal people, who obviously aren't affected by the drought due to being fishing based.
-Fishers fold and get conquered or evicted. People realize there's simply not enough fishing grounds to feed everyone anyway.
-Fishers would push along the coast to expand fishing grounds, but building new boats is not cheap.
-Fuck it, take the boats, use the old Nomad methods by sea, find people to beat up and take their food too.
Then giant cascading chain of hungry people.
If we want to evolve it towards a concept of Arete, we'd need to round it out. Intellectuals are likely covered through our Great Temple, Library and Palace. Artisans are not really covered at all, but the Guilds will be working on that.
So for Games wise it depends on the social climate.
Rushing the library may for instance, lead to fictional accounts to be recorded, whereas going through it slowly means that people will challenge the lore being written down and copied over time.
There's pros to rushing in that it doesn't give a lot of time to challenge our social foundations, and the proliferation of things that are later oonsidered fiction could give us an alternate avenue of Arts patronage.
Going slow would focus more on the veracity of the knowledge I feel. Gather the facts, and then trigger more challenge events for basic beliefs.
We take the salt, and flood the Metal Worker and Hathatyn economies with it, buying out their tradable precious metal supplies, then we take the metal, turn around and ship it home, then trade it down into the lowlands, who are forced to buy gold and silver from the Ymaryn because we bought out all the stuff the Hathatyn had.
Simplified enormously of course, but mechanically it should move us up a tier and move rivals down a tier along coastal trade networks until they copy the docks.
Fish are generally a supplementary food source for settled peoples unless they are entirely coastal based. In the event of an extended drought based agricultural collapse. A possible chain of events:
-Drought hits. Nomads in the area raid the settled peoples to gain food stores, stressing the settled peoples' ability to see off the Nomads while maintaining enough food.
-Nomadic conquerers realizes that they're STILL running out of food(and fighting all the leftover nomads), so they hit the Coastal people, who obviously aren't affected by the drought due to being fishing based.
-Fishers fold and get conquered or evicted. People realize there's simply not enough fishing grounds to feed everyone anyway.
-Fishers would push along the coast to expand fishing grounds, but building new boats is not cheap.
-Fuck it, take the boats, use the old Nomad methods by sea, find people to beat up and take their food too.
Then giant cascading chain of hungry people.
It has been said before that while the Games move Honor of Elites away from Martial Excellence, it also simultaneously cements the ideal of Physical Excellence.
If we want to evolve it towards a concept of Arete, we'd need to round it out. Intellectuals are likely covered through our Great Temple, Library and Palace. Artisans are not really covered at all, but the Guilds will be working on that.
So for Games wise it depends on the social climate.
Library, I would have no objections to rushing it while in Golden Age, though otherwise we'd probably want it to percolate a bit over time.
Rushing the library may for instance, lead to fictional accounts to be recorded, whereas going through it slowly means that people will challenge the lore being written down and copied over time.
There's pros to rushing in that it doesn't give a lot of time to challenge our social foundations, and the proliferation of things that are later oonsidered fiction could give us an alternate avenue of Arts patronage.
Going slow would focus more on the veracity of the knowledge I feel. Gather the facts, and then trigger more challenge events for basic beliefs.
Based on historical economiics, the Docks basically means that we can ship more goods in either direction. By doing so, we boost our trade power for coastally traded goods, as others cannot compete with the number of ships we can build and service.
We take the salt, and flood the Metal Worker and Hathatyn economies with it, buying out their tradable precious metal supplies, then we take the metal, turn around and ship it home, then trade it down into the lowlands, who are forced to buy gold and silver from the Ymaryn because we bought out all the stuff the Hathatyn had.
Simplified enormously of course, but mechanically it should move us up a tier and move rivals down a tier along coastal trade networks until they copy the docks.
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Updated my chart.
The thread broke record once again with 1320 posts in one day on June 1st, 2017, just when I thought it would be very difficult to breach the previous record. I am proven wrong.
That's 52.8 pages in one day, BTW.
The thread broke record once again with 1320 posts in one day on June 1st, 2017, just when I thought it would be very difficult to breach the previous record. I am proven wrong.
That's 52.8 pages in one day, BTW.
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
It disturbs me that in our world Greece, the centre of culture, was founded by Nomads...
What do you mean?
The Greeks were a series of kingdoms during the bronze age.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
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Dude all the early kingdoms were founded by nomads deciding to settle, we just called them 'hunter gatherers'
- Location
- Mists of Albion
No, those were the Mycenaean kingdoms, the Greek City states as we know them came about during the Late Bronze Age collapse when the Mycenae got run over by the Classical Greek people's
I'm just trying to reconcile the hatred of Nomads this quest has given me with my respect for Classical Greece and Hellenism
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It was nearly inevitable. Early settled peoples were highly vulnerable to nomadic peoples, so pretty much everyone got invaded and the entire ruling class replaced by Nomads(who of course, realized that to fix the food and weakness problem you just had to accept keeping a lot of poorly fed people growing lots of food for your warrior caste) at some point before they got the stability to tell them to fuck off now and forevermore.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
That whole 'taken over by Nomadic leadership' thing sounds an awful lot like the Metal Workers....
Not!Greece when?
It happened to the Chinese, and probably to every other civilization bordering the steppes.
But for all their martial prowess, the conquerors usually don't have lasting power, and they were often the one who assimilated into the culture of the settled people rather than other way around.
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
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We are already Not!Greece since we have Philosophy.