Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

_The_Bomb · Nov 27, 2021

@eaglejarl @Velorien
You may consider the text below to be a proposed update/addition to the "Consequences" section of the Rules document.

Anytime within eight days of the experiation date of a severe consequence or one day within the experiation date of a moderate consequence, the players may request that the QMs roll back the severity of said consequence by one level. If the charecter is not capable of recieving an additional consequence at the new severity level, no change will occur (though the players may rerequest for the severity of the consequence to be lowered once space has open up). If the players do not request for a consequence to be rolled to a lower severity, than no change will occur and the consequence will heal completely once the experiation date is reached.

I've already spoken at length about why I reccomend this change, so I'll keep my reasoning here short. Basically, the proposed mechanics would be a substantially better reflection of the actual narrative (unless you were planning on having Hazō go from unable to walk or think clearly to the equivalent of professional gymnast overnight). There would be no addtional work put on the QMs to keep track of anything and, due to the incredibly short timeframe of a moderate or mild consequence compared to a severe, this would not truly lesson the consequences, if you will, for having a charecter recieve a consequence. I do not expect for this proposed change to be utilized frequency except for cases where the QMs and players have been stuck waiting for months for a severe consquence to heal.

TL;DR These mechanics make substantially more sense from an in-universe perspective and allow the players and QMs to return to the most enjoyable parts of the quest slightly quicker.

Sir Stompy · Nov 27, 2021

_The_Bomb said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien
You may consider the text below to be a proposed update/addition to the "Consequences" section of the Rules document.

Anytime within eight days of the experiation date of a severe consequence or one day within the experiation date of a moderate consequence, the players may request that the QMs roll back the severity of said consequence by one level. If the charecter is not capable of recieving an additional consequence at the new severity level, no change will occur (though the players may rerequest for the severity of the consequence to be lowered once space has open up). If the players do not request for a consequence to be rolled to a lower severity, than no change will occur and the consequence will heal completely once the experiation date is reached.

I've already spoken at length about why I reccomend this change, so I'll keep my reasoning here short. Basically, the proposed mechanics would be a substantially better reflection of the actual narrative (unless you were planning on having Hazō go from unable to walk or think clearly to the equivalent of professional gymnast overnight). There would be no addtional work put on the QMs to keep track of anything and, due to the incredibly short timeframe of a moderate or mild consequence compared to a severe, this would not truly lesson the consequences, if you will, for having a charecter recieve a consequence. I do not expect for this proposed change to be utilized frequency except for cases where the QMs and players have been stuck waiting for months for a severe consquence to heal.

TL;DR These mechanics make substantially more sense from an in-universe perspective and allow the players and QMs to return to the most enjoyable parts of the quest slightly quicker.

I'd also suggest the addition of a "this new Consequence does not provide additional Fate Points" to clarify things a bit. But I support this amendment in the interest of simulationism.

Inferno Vulpix · Nov 28, 2021

_The_Bomb said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien
You may consider the text below to be a proposed update/addition to the "Consequences" section of the Rules document.

Anytime within eight days of the experiation date of a severe consequence or one day within the experiation date of a moderate consequence, the players may request that the QMs roll back the severity of said consequence by one level. If the charecter is not capable of recieving an additional consequence at the new severity level, no change will occur (though the players may rerequest for the severity of the consequence to be lowered once space has open up). If the players do not request for a consequence to be rolled to a lower severity, than no change will occur and the consequence will heal completely once the experiation date is reached.

I've already spoken at length about why I reccomend this change, so I'll keep my reasoning here short. Basically, the proposed mechanics would be a substantially better reflection of the actual narrative (unless you were planning on having Hazō go from unable to walk or think clearly to the equivalent of professional gymnast overnight). There would be no addtional work put on the QMs to keep track of anything and, due to the incredibly short timeframe of a moderate or mild consequence compared to a severe, this would not truly lesson the consequences, if you will, for having a charecter recieve a consequence. I do not expect for this proposed change to be utilized frequency except for cases where the QMs and players have been stuck waiting for months for a severe consquence to heal.

TL;DR These mechanics make substantially more sense from an in-universe perspective and allow the players and QMs to return to the most enjoyable parts of the quest slightly quicker.

My first counter-thought is that downgrading Consequences might conflict with extant lower-grade Consequences, such as if Hazou gets himself a new Moderate just as his Severe hits the downgrade range, but honestly that doesn't seem like much of a problem at all.

My other thought is that things could mechanically stay the same and the QMs just choose to play it up less and less the closer we get to the end-date. I think we've already been seeing that, actually, Hazou still requires a cane but his physical and mental deficiencies have been mentioned less often and less severely now as compared to when they were fresh and new, which narratively jives with the idea that he's slowly recovering and you can just extend that all the way down to normal with the last week or so showing minimal narrative effects.

At the end of the day the QMs also don't want to create the dissonance you're working to solve, but it's not really my business if it gets resolved on the mechanical or narrative side of things. If all we need is for the QMs to remember to make the recovery feel gradual instead of abrupt, then that's fine in my book.

Lysbeth Succubus · Nov 28, 2021

Unaligned Player said:
"Seeing as I haven't clawed my eyes out or come up with another paradigm breaking sealing idea, you already know the answer."

"So it's a yes?"

Ipsos Custodes · Nov 28, 2021

Yuno:

Velorien said:
You would never have thrown your sister to the wolves to save yourself just because she was within reach, but Mari did, and told everyone that it was moral as long as her death wasn't guaranteed. Whatever choices she made after that, whatever risks she took, none of it changes the fact that Kei's life was not hers to give away.

Noburi:

Velorien said:
At the same time, he couldn't help feeling little flashes of irrational rage every time he imagined Kei being taken away to be tortured by a monster because Mari had put Hazō first.

Snowflake:

Velorien said:
Could you not have tempted him with Truth Lost in the Fog, a unique, extraordinary bribe that would probably not require anyone to be dissected? Could you not have drawn his attention by asking him about his research, or the Basement, or Jiraiya, or Akatsuki, or whatever?

Hazou:

Velorien said:
he couldn't not look back and wonder what it said about a person that they could sacrifice a loved one, within seconds of having the idea, just because it was rational and right.

Mari:

Velorien said:
Mari said. "I had no choice, but what I did to you was still unconscionable."

There's pretty much unanimous consensus in character that what Mari did was unacceptable and morally wrong (even from Mari herself, "unconscionable" doesn't mean excusable). The fact that there might not have been an objectively better option doesn't fix the morality, morality sometimes means making suboptimal choices for the sake of that morality.

I'm not even sure it can really be argued to have been a rational choice since at no point is it made clear that Mari did so thinking that Kei could eventually get out of the situation given her political position and connections, just that she wasn't there and would be a decent immediate distraction.

Frankly, the QMs have been bashing us over the head with this in repeated references from various perspectives - what next, do we need a Kagome POV where he also says it's a bad thing to sacrifice one family member to save another?

Treating others as if they have no agency has been a problem for Hazou (though more a symptom of us looking at the Quest as a story where fictional characters don't truly have agency) and that is what Mari did here as well.

The question we should be asking ourselves is what sort of plan we would have voted for if the chapter ended right there when Orochimaru was turning back to Hazou and before Mari sacrificed Kei('s safety)? I don't think we'd have voted to put Kei on the chopping block, and given that Hazou was specifically keeping Orochimaru away from his family and putting himself at risk to keep them safe, even if we had voted for the plan Hazoupilot might not have executed it. So why all the arguments defending the indefensible? Even if it was objectively rational (which is debatable, at best) it was morally unacceptable. We're trying to be *better* people in a death world, putting people first, not our goals.

@eaglejarl / @Velorien in chaper 474, what are Mari's eye color:

When she first enters the meeting?

eaglejarl said:
Mari was the last into the meeting

When she returns to the meeting with Yuno?

eaglejarl said:
The door opened and Mari slipped through, closely followed by Satsuko and Yuno.

When she is doing something with her fingers here?

eaglejarl said:
Mari glanced up upon hearing her name, smiled and nodded, and then went back to examining her fingers.

And at the end of the meeting?

Also, in chapter 476, before and after meeting with Mari and telling her how things went?

To be clear, I'm checking that Mari isn't using Truth Lost in the Fog to have repeat conversations with Hazou in order to manipulate him/get the conversation "right."

faflec said:
I wonder if there's an upper limit to the number of words that can be counted in a Google Doc, and what would happen if you tried to go beyond that.

There isn't a word limit, but there is a 1.02 million character limit, after which it will just refuse to continue saving/syncing your edits.

Velorien · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
Kei:

Note that this is Yuno speaking, not Kei.

Edit:

Ipsos Custodes said:
Frankly, the QMs have been bashing us over the head with this in repeated references from various perspectives - what next, do we need a Kagome POV where he also says it's a bad thing to sacrifice one family member to save another?

Note that character statements in this quest do not reflect the opinions or beliefs of Velorien, @eaglejarl, @OliWhail, past QMs, the owners and moderators of Sufficient Velocity, the online rationality community, or the beings of the Out who secretly or openly hold us all in their thrall. (Praise be to Lord Jashin.)

Ipsos Custodes · Nov 28, 2021

Velorien said:
Note that this is Yuno speaking, not Kei.

You are correct! Edited my error.

Oneiros · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
Frankly, the QMs have been bashing us over the head with this in repeated references from various perspectives - what next, do we need a Kagome POV where he also says it's a bad thing to sacrifice one family member to save another?

I would like to point out exactly how fucked up everyone on our team is.

Mari: sexually abused as a child, trained to be a child soldier, sexually trafficked as a child and, drug addiction

Kei: Trained as a child soldier, emotionally abused by parents, socially isolated and, forced to abandon her entire life

Noburi: Trained as a child soldier, emotionally neglected by parents, loss of close sibling at a young age, increased expectations thrust on him, seen as a walking chakra battery and not a person by his peers and forced to abandon his entire life

Kagome: Trained as a child soldier, probably saw everyone he cared about die in traumatic sealing failures and, lived in complete isolation for years

Hazou: Trained as a child soldier, loss of a parent at a young age, lived in poverty, forced to engage with criminals at a young age, given adult responsibilities as a child, has had his brain warped by seeing beyond the veil, constantly exposed to essie's killing intent and, forced to abandon his entire life

What would you want us to do about this? There's no plan or heroic speech that can fix things cause spoiler alert everyone on the team is horribly traumatized. If we wanted to spend the next 3-5 in game year devoted to playing mental health quest we might be able to help out our team but I don't want to play that kind of game

Kiba · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
The question we should be asking ourselves is what sort of plan we would have voted for if the chapter ended right there when Orochimaru was turning back to Hazou and before Mari sacrificed Kei('s safety)? I don't think we'd have voted to put Kei on the chopping block, and given that Hazou was specifically keeping Orochimaru away from his family and putting himself at risk to keep them safe, even if we had voted for the plan Hazoupilot might not have executed it. So why all the arguments defending the indefensible? Even if it was objectively rational (which is debatable, at best) it was morally unacceptable. We're trying to be *better* people in a death world, putting people first, not our goals.

What exactly is morally indefensible about Mari's decision? Or is there even a right answer?

Just because it is the characters' opinion that it is morally incorrect or whatever, doesn't mean the hivemind(individual opinions aside) will exactly bend to the wish of the characters.

eaglejarl · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
in chaper 474, what are Mari's eye color:

When she first enters the meeting?

Left: Honey gold
Right: Pale brown

Ipsos Custodes said:
When she returns to the meeting with Yuno?

Unchanged

Ipsos Custodes said:
When she is doing something with her fingers here?

Unchanged

Ipsos Custodes said:
And at the end of the meeting

Unchanged

Ipsos Custodes said:
Also, in chapter 476, before and after meeting with Mari and telling her how things went?

Before: Light brown
After: Unchanged

Black King · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
We're trying to be *better* people in a death world, putting people first, not our goals.

Yeah but being alive is very important if one wants to accomplish their goals. And that's what Mari gave us. The ability to snatch victory from the jaws of death/defeat.

And one could argue that if you're not willing to make tough decisions and don't have the resolve to make the correct decision, even if immoral (not that I believe it was) then you don't have what it takes to succeed in a world changing goal.

Sir Stompy · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
So why all the arguments defending the indefensible? Even if it was objectively rational (which is debatable, at best) it was morally unacceptable. We're trying to be *better* people in a death world, putting people first, not our goals.

Why isn't the playerbase interfering with the Final Gift Programme? It's morally indefensible - torturing helpless veterans to death for petty cash. We are trying to put people first, after all.

What about the Sunset Racer? No torture, but we sure as fuck killed a bunch of helpless people to preserve OPSEC. I'm sure there were epic arguments in favor of killing Minami and going missing over it, but they did not prevail.

Ipsos Custodes · Nov 28, 2021

Oneiros said:
What would you want us to do about this? There's no plan or heroic speech that can fix things cause spoiler alert everyone on the team is horribly traumatized. If we wanted to spend the next 3-5 in game year devoted to playing mental health quest we might be able to help out our team but I don't want to play that kind of game

Fixing what has been done is separate from the perspective that what Mari did was wrong. This isn't about fixing their mental health, it's about not being ok with a family member pushing another family member in front of us to take a bullet.

Kiba said:
What exactly is morally indefensible about Mari's decision? Or is there even a right answer?

That it's wrong to throw one family member in front of a bullet aimed at another family member in order to save them.

Edit: as Snowflake pointed out, there were other options, perhaps not as good, and perhaps ones that would have reduced Mari's strengths by disclosing her secret technique, but ones that did not involve putting a family member at imminent risk of death.

Black King said:
Yeah but being alive is very important if one wants to accomplish their goals. And that's what Mari gave us. The ability to snatch victory from the jaws of death/defeat.

I don't know about you, but it's hard to imagine a goal that I'd willingly put an immediate family member in danger of imminent death in order to accomplish. Or that I'd even consider using a family member's life to substitute my own.

Sir Stompy said:
Why isn't the playerbase interfering with the Final Gift Programme?

People can make their own choices about their lives, we're working towards creating a world where that choice doesn't have to happen, but until then these people decided euthanasia via painful scientific research is the right choice for them and their families. I would not begrudge Hazou putting himself on Orochimaru's table to save Kei, or Kei doing it to save Hazou, the issue is throwing someone else ahead to take the bullet.

Sir Stompy said:
What about the Sunset Racer?

Because Hazou hasn't been feeling like that's a morally contemptible thing he's guilty for, and still thinks of with some regularity?

Oneiros · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
Fixing what has been done is separate from the perspective that what Mari did was wrong. This isn't about fixing their mental health, it's about not being ok with a family member pushing another family member in front of us to take a bullet.

I just want to know what actionable things you want to be put into plans. Should we make it known that Hazō isn't ok with it? Do we make a grand speech about it? What's the plan moving forward?

Ipsos Custodes · Nov 28, 2021

Oneiros said:
I just want to know what actionable things you want to be put into plans. Should we make it known that Hazō isn't ok with it? Do we make a grand speech about it? What's the plan moving forward?

I'm really not sure, I think my comment was more directed to the Hivemind rather than something in story. Why are we defending Mari so assiduously? We can be thankful she saved Hazou and also disgusted at the manner in which she did it.

I'm not sure there's really any actions to take at the moment, but every Goketsu who has given an opinion in story thinks what Mari did was wrong.

I suppose I'm looking to change the tenor of the conversation in thread. Rather than a debate on how everyone is being irrational at being upset for Mari's (arguably) rational decision to an acknowledgement that Mari did something morally contemptible and everyone is correct to be upset and think less of her even though everything worked out (by happenstance rather than prior planning my Mari, in my opinion).

The only redeemable thing Mari did was try to offload some of the harm to herself after putting it all squarely on Kei, and I think that was more of an afterthought rather than prior planning as well.

Sir Stompy · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
People can make their own choices about their lives, we're working towards creating a world where that choice doesn't have to happen, but until then these people decided euthanasia via painful scientific research is the right choice for them and their families. I would not begrudge Hazou putting himself on Orochimaru's table to save Kei, or Kei doing it to save Hazou, the issue is throwing someone else ahead to take the bullet.

In what universe is being vivisected without anesthetics considered euthanasia? The definition euthanasia is the painless killing of someone suffering incurable disease. Being unable to go on ninja missions is not a disease! Furthermore, these people are forced into poverty by the aggressive tax rates of the Hokage - 80% on anything over subsistence. They do it to feed their families. Any Hokage interested in these people as people and not bargaining chips for Oro would pay for their care himself.

I don't understand how these people aren't being forced to take the same bullet you condemn Mari for throwing Keiko at.

Oneiros · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
I'm really not sure, I think my comment was more directed to the Hivemind rather than something in story. Why are we defending Mari so assiduously? We can be thankful she saved Hazou and also disgusted at the manner in which she did it.

I'm not sure there's really any actions to take at the moment, but every Goketsu who has given an opinion in story thinks what Mari did was wrong.

I suppose I'm looking to change the tenor of the conversation in thread. Rather than a debate on how everyone is being irrational at being upset for Mari's (arguably) rational decision to an acknowledgement that Mari did something morally contemptible and everyone is correct to be upset and think less of her even though everything worked out (by happenstance rather than prior planning my Mari, in my opinion).

The only redeemable thing Mari did was try to offload some of the harm to herself after putting it all squarely on Kei, and I think that was more of an afterthought rather than prior planning as well.

Personally I'm not trying to defend Mari or attack her because frankly I don't want to play mental health and intense interpersonal relationships quest. I don't want what are my day to day struggles dealing with my serious mental health issues to become one of the central topics to one of my favorite ways to enjoy myself. The questions you are posing that the hive mind answer are things I have thought about myself everyday for years. It's exhausting. On top of that there is no way we will reach anything near a consensus on how we should handle this. It feels like a never ending cycle whenever we deal with Mari/Kei drama.

Ipsos Custodes · Nov 28, 2021

eaglejarl said:
Left: Honey gold
Right: Pale brown

eaglejarl said:
Before: Light brown
After: Unchanged

These are 1 day(?) apart? We should also be very concerned about this and who she used it on.

Sir Stompy said:
I don't understand how these people aren't being forced to take the same bullet you condemn Mari for throwing Keiko at.

Because they're not being forced, they're making a choice. A terrible choice, but it's there's to make. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be taking actions to reduce the need for that sort of choice in the future - and we are, a universal reduction in poverty is an explicit goal.

If we could have frozen time and asked Kei for permission to direct Orochimaru to her in order to save Hazou, and she assented, that would be a very different situation than Mari unilaterally doing it.

Oneiros said:
Personally I'm not trying to defend Mari or attack her because frankly I don't want to play mental health and intense interpersonal relationships quest. I don't want what are my day to day struggles dealing with my serious mental health issues to become one of the central topics to one of my favorite ways to enjoy myself. The questions you are posing that the hive mind answer are things I have thought about myself everyday for years. It's exhausting. On top of that there is no way we will reach anything near a consensus on how we should handle this. It feels like a never ending cycle whenever we deal with Mari/Kei drama.

I don't have any good response here. I agree about not wanting this to be an interpersonal and relationships quest, especially since it's usually been forced on us (Orochimaru showing up, forcing Hazou, Mari's interruption and choice, Asuma/Kei/Shikamaru's suggestions and ideas for how to resolve it, Tsunade bullying Orochimaru, everyone's reactions, etc. were all pretty much out of the players' hands even though we had plans and were able to vote).

Perhaps we can do exactly that, ignore it. Kei and Mari aren't on friendly terms, fine, we explicitly don't take sides as Clan Head and if issues come up we just order everyone involved to remain civil and otherwise be quiet about terrible choices made under terrible circumstances, and to treat the entire situation as a clan secret not to be discussed outside of meetings where Hazou is present. I'm not opposed to that.

Velorien · Nov 28, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
In what universe is being vivisected without anesthetics considered euthanasia? The definition euthanasia is the painless killing of someone suffering incurable disease. Being unable to go on ninja missions is not a disease! Furthermore, these people are forced into poverty by the aggressive tax rates of the Hokage - 80% on anything over subsistence. They do it to feed their families. Any Hokage interested in these people as people and not bargaining chips for Oro would pay for their care himself.

As a point of pedantry, you don't actually know what level of anaesthesia Orochimaru personally has access to or cares about. He might knock out his victims with a blow to the head because he finds the screaming distracting, or he might have super venom-based anaesthetics from the Snakes but refuse to use them because it contaminates the experiment.

Sir Stompy · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
Because they're not being forced, they're making a choice. A terrible choice, but it's there's to make. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be taking actions to reduce the need for that sort of choice in the future - and we are, a universal reduction in poverty is an explicit goal.

If we could have frozen time and asked Kei for permission to direct Orochimaru to her in order to save Hazou, and she assented, that would be a very different situation than Mari unilaterally doing it.

This is a ludicrous distinction IMO. They're forced into it by the circumstances just as Mari was. Watch your family starve because no one will help, or be vivisected by a murderous psychopath. Watch your son be kidnapped and vivisected or throw your daughter under the bus and hope they can get away. We even learned that the FGP has dedicated recruiters to manipulate people into joining. You're saying it's a free choice? Sure it is, same as the child labor in the coal mines is to feed mom and your younger sisters.

What kills me is that Ami designed and implemented the FGP to save her own skin, and Kei seems totally oblivious to the hypocrisy of her blind worship of Ami vs. her treatment of Mari. Ami is guilty of doing the same thing Mari did, dozens if not hundreds of times. All to save her own life. Even if she doesn't share the full burden of responsibility, even a tenth would make her far more guilty than Mari is! Keiko is oblivious to this.

Ipsos Custodes · Nov 28, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
This is a ludicrous distinction IMO. They're forced into it by the circumstances just as Mari was.

I disagree. I think our choices define us, especially our choices under difficult circumstances. The person who jumps on the grenade isn't the person who pushes his friend on top of the grenade. One is a hero and the other a villain.

But it doesn't seem like further discussion will sway either of us from our perspectives.

I will just point out that I don't think Mari was thinking through likelihoods of saving both, only Hazou, that after the fact explanations were just that, after the choice had already been made.

Inferno Vulpix · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
These are 1 day(?) apart? We should also be very concerned about this and who she used it on.

I don't think we strictly know that they change on TLitF casts? It's something we've suspected that the QMs may have just not seen fit to correct us on. Personally I'm not sure I buy it: her eyes change colour a lot and given how averse she was to paying TLitF's price I find it hard to imagine her using it that often.

Kiba · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
I disagree. I think our choices define us, especially our choices under difficult circumstances. The person who jumps on the grenade isn't the person who pushes his friend on top of the grenade. One is a hero and the other a villain.

But it doesn't seem like further discussion will sway either of us from our perspectives.

I will just point out that I don't think Mari was thinking through likelihoods of saving both, only Hazou, that after the fact explanations were just that, after the choice had already been made.

That's hardly the choice Mari's making. She's thinking about how to best preserve her family, not just Hazo.

faflec · Nov 28, 2021

eaglejarl said:
General. He drains them to unconsciousness and keeps draining them as necessary so they don't wake up while they're on the table. This gives him a significant advantage over most mednin, much less regular doctors. Medninjutsu can't act as anaesthetic, so most mednin / civilian doctors have to use drugs which generally have side effects, aren't exactly predictable in their duration, and have a risk of death if you overdose someone. Noburi can drain someone exactly the right amount, monitor them maintain them at that level with draining and/or injections of chakra water, and restore them the minute they wake up.

(Although obviously the chakra water injections have their own challenges, since both the needle and the water must have been prepared (boiled) in advance, there is no way to maintain sterility long-term, and disposable needles are not a thing.)

How much chakra water does Noburi need to wake someone up? I can't imagine that 0.5L water injected into someone's bloodstream would be a good idea, and Noburi didn't kill the kid wiith gapmouth he treated, so this implies he can do injections of chakra water which could in theory work as a substitute for drinking chakra water (since he can concentrate the chakra water).

Sir Stompy · Nov 28, 2021

Ipsos Custodes said:
I disagree. I think our choices define us, especially our choices under difficult circumstances. The person who jumps on the grenade isn't the person who pushes his friend on top of the grenade. One is a hero and the other a villain.

But it doesn't seem like further discussion will sway either of us from our perspectives.

I will just point out that I don't think Mari was thinking through likelihoods of saving both, only Hazou, that after the fact explanations were just that, after the choice had already been made.

Tbh I don't have a problem that Keiko feels Mari acted wrongly. Mari did do a bad thing. That's Keiko's prerogative as far as I'm concerned. My problem is that Ami gets away with the exact same thing and Keiko lionizes her. The cognitive dissonance must be crippling.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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