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I don't think we strictly know that they change on TLitF casts? It's something we've suspected that the QMs may have just not seen fit to correct us on. Personally I'm not sure I buy it: her eyes change colour a lot and given how averse she was to paying TLitF's price I find it hard to imagine her using it that often.

I think it was implied she was more willing to use it when Hazou ordered her to help the family and took responsibility for her choices in doing so, and as more of her memories got emotion wiped she would have been less and less reticent to use it.

If it's not TLitF then we should probably be trying to figure out what's making her eyes change colors, it's unlikely to be a good thing.
 
Honestly we don't need to wonder why Mari did what she did. She had dissociative identity disorder. Protector Mari took control and did what she thought was necessary to save Hazō. Long term planning isn't her strong suit.
 
As a point of pedantry, you don't actually know what level of anaesthesia Orochimaru personally has access to or cares about. He might knock out his victims with a blow to the head because he finds the screaming distracting, or he might have super venom-based anaesthetics from the Snakes but refuse to use them because it contaminates the experiment.
Irl we're told that anesthesia for animal experiments like surgery is important not just for humane purposes but also because having the animal thrashing around and being full of adrenaline will throw off the results of most experiments more than the anesthesia. And for the experiments that would be messed up by anesthesia it's usually best to kill them first so the results aren't messed up by anesthesia or adrenaline.

This implies that at least for some experiments, Orochimaru probably uses super venom-based anesthetics to knock people out.

How much chakra water does Noburi need to wake someone up? I can't imagine that 0.5L water injected into someone's bloodstream would be a good idea, and Noburi didn't kill the kid wiith gapmouth he treated, so this implies he can do injections of chakra water which could in theory work as a substitute for drinking chakra water (since he can concentrate the chakra water).
He can use the thing where he directly transfers through his wet hand, right? As long as he's not in a rush that way should work fine.
 
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The cognitive dissonance must be crippling.

"Nuh-uh," Ami interrupted. "If you're going to trust my judgement in everything, then you have to trust it when I'm beating myself up too."

The paradox struck Kei like a guided meteor strike. Ami did not make mistakes. Not about important matters. This was an important matter. Ami was saying she had made a mistake about it. Either Ami was correct, and had made an important mistake, or she was incorrect, which was in itself an important mistake.

She looked to Ami pleadingly.

"Sorry, runt, there's no easy way out of this one."

"You should attend our gaming night," Kei said brightly. "Everyone of note will be there to celebrate the end of the tournament."

Ami sighed.
 
I'm not even sure it can really be argued to have been a rational choice since at no point is it made clear that Mari did so thinking that Kei could eventually get out of the situation . . .
Well then, let's get some of that fabled rationality up in this talk. While there are now more people involved in the Great Seal Quest, there's still a decent chance that Hazo is critical to the success of the repair.

If you have a lever that can avoid an X% chance to destroy the world by instantly killing (less than X)% of the world's population, then pulling it is correct.

On the other side, people can have moral objections regarding any given topic. However, when they are given the choice to keep their opinions to themselves or rub their percieved moral high ground into other people's faces, reducing their chance of success at saving the world more than they improve it by the resulting personal catharsis, that's not quite the cash money we're looking for.

From a rational perspective where sapient (or even just human) life is the utility value, Mari is a 5-star hero whereas Yuno and Kei-Crew are monsters.
 
Why isn't the playerbase interfering with the Final Gift Programme? It's morally indefensible - torturing helpless veterans to death for petty cash.
That is an incredibly unfair characterization.

It's not petty.

If you have a lever that can avoid an X% chance to destroy the world by instantly killing (less than X)% of the world's population, then pulling it is correct.

The Longest Joke in the World

This is officially the longest joke in the world
 
Why isn't the playerbase interfering with the Final Gift Programme?

What would we replace it with? No one altruistically volunteers for "examination." Orochimaru is one third of Leaf's notable military might, and that carries an immense amount of influence.

Who would we replace Orochimaru with? Jiraiya is dead, and we're years away from necromancy (perhaps decades If we keep putting it off).

Leaf barely has 20 jonin, and most of them are freshly-minted jonin. Would we choose an E-Jonin to ascend into S-rank? Even if we gave Asuma or Mari FOOM today, they would still be a long way from S-rank.

Orochimaru's power is a power that Leaf cannot afford to lose. Orochimaru's insatiable cruelty is a cruelty that must be catered to, because the alternative is annihilation.

I don't agree with the it, of course. Asuma throwing us to Tsunade's mercy is a betrayal on every level. But what other choice is there? Orochimaru is not a rational actor. He cannot be negotiated with. He only became moderately "reasonable" when faced with the threat of an opposing S-ranker.
 
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There's no plan or heroic speech that can fix things cause spoiler alert everyone on the team is horribly traumatized.
This is true for the deeper underlying issues. But the kei mari relationship might be more easily resolved. Hazou was seemingly able to knock Mari from heartbreaker spiral with one Out fueled speech (although was surprised it was that easy)
 
I think there may be parallels between how the Goketsu betrayed Yuno's expectations for clanhood and how Asuma betrayed Hazou's expectations for Leaf.

Hazou and Uplift, Asuma and the WoF. Common thread of Orochimaru...

Maybe it's just a surface level similarity, or maybe there's something to it. I'll think about it more, later, when I have time.
 
What kills me is that Ami designed and implemented the FGP to save her own skin, and Kei seems totally oblivious to the hypocrisy of her blind worship of Ami vs. her treatment of Mari. Ami is guilty of doing the same thing Mari did, dozens if not hundreds of times. All to save her own life. Even if she doesn't share the full burden of responsibility, even a tenth would make her far more guilty than Mari is! Keiko is oblivious to this.
Ooooh. Good one, @Sir Stompy. I've noted it. It'll be a fun conversation.
 
I imagine that Ami's actions re: the FGP is more palatable to Kei over Mari's actions because Ami doesn't have the same moral responsibility to the FGP Mari had to Kei, and also because the FGP is a strictly 'voluntary' program in the sense that the final decision does actually rest on the participant's shoulders.
 
I don't think we strictly know that they change on TLitF casts? It's something we've suspected that the QMs may have just not seen fit to correct us on. Personally I'm not sure I buy it: her eyes change colour a lot and given how averse she was to paying TLitF's price I find it hard to imagine her using it that often.
Should we address this IC though? I remember her warning about people not being puzzles to figure out but that's too much of a change not to mention to anyone. Kind of tired we keep dismissing it tbh. I'd at least want to conform with Kagome and Noburi on this that Hazo ain't crazy.
 
Should we address this IC though? I remember her warning about people not being puzzles to figure out but that's too much of a change not to mention to anyone. Kind of tired we keep dismissing it tbh. I'd at least want to conform with Kagome and Noburi on this that Hazo ain't crazy.
We found confirmation of the eye color change in Jiraiya's spy notes (he noticed it, too), and spoke to Mari about it. She had a small freak out, and Mari jokingly told Hazou that he owed her a mountain of chocolate for her in recompense.
 
We found confirmation of the eye color change in Jiraiya's spy notes (he noticed it, too), and spoke to Mari about it. She had a small freak out, and Mari jokingly told Hazou that he owed her a mountain of chocolate for her in recompense.
I remember. She shamed us into not prying further. I just want to get the others in the clan on the same page. It's too strange for everyone in the clan to tiptoe around.
 
I remember. She shamed us into not prying further. I just want to get the others in the clan on the same page. It's too strange for everyone in the clan to tiptoe around.

Sure, but doing this right now is just going to make people more suspicious about Mari and going to make people annyoed at Hazou for not bringing it up earlier.

Unless Mari does something drastic it's maybe better to let it rest for a while and not forgetting it for other stuff.

Like that one time we knew Haru was murdering civilians but we wanted too look at a portal.

And if she does something drastic? May Jashin help us all....
 
Sure, but doing this right now is just going to make people more suspicious about Mari and going to make people annyoed at Hazou for not bringing it up earlier.

Unless Mari does something drastic it's maybe better to let it rest for a while and not forgetting it for other stuff.
I'm okay with taking a hit for this if it means we know what's going on. We need to know if Mari is unintentionally crippling or altering herself.

Although I didn't consider that the others may not have noticed the eye color change. I thought they were all just dismissing it since there was no easy explaination.
 
That is an incredibly unfair characterization.

It's not petty.
It's petty cash to the Hokage, homeboy makes R 192,000,000 a year. Subsistence for a ninja is R 42,400, for a civilian R 4,240. He could keep all hundred of these guys and their families in relative comfort out of his own pocket. The Tower is even richer than that.
What would we replace it with? No one altruistically volunteers for "examination." Orochimaru is one third of Leaf's notable military might, and that carries an immense amount of influence.

Who would we replace Orochimaru with? Jiraiya is dead, and we're years away from necromancy (perhaps decades I'd we keep putting it off).

Leaf barely has 20 jonin, and most of them are freshly-minted jonin. Would we choose an E-Jonin to ascend into S-rank? Even if we gave Asuma or Mari FOOM today, they would still be a long way from S-rank.

Orochimaru's power is a power that Leaf cannot afford to lose. Orochimaru's insatiable cruelty is a cruelty that must be catered to, because the alternative is annihilation.

I don't agree with the it, of course. Asuma throwing us to Tsunade's mercy is a betrayal on every level. But what other choice is there? Orochimaru is not a rational actor. He cannot be negotiated with. He only became moderately "reasonable" when faced with the threat of an opposing S-ranker.
My point, was that sometimes we do very bad things. I have absolutely no alternative and I was not implying there was a good one. That is what living in a deathworld is like. I think our characters should extend each other the same grace. If they want to be a family they have to forgive each other.
 
I imagine that Ami's actions re: the FGP is more palatable to Kei over Mari's actions because Ami doesn't have the same moral responsibility to the FGP Mari had to Kei, and also because the FGP is a strictly 'voluntary' program in the sense that the final decision does actually rest on the participant's shoulders.
Sure, but this isn't exactly an endorsement of Keiko's decision making process. As a logistics spec, Keiko should be well aware about how clanless nin are forced into poverty by the Hokage.

Forcing them to choose between watching themselves and their family starve and dying horribly but having their family live isn't much of a choice at all.

As to moral responsibility to these people, how much of a hypocrite can Keiko be? Ami is a coordinator of KEI. She has a duty to these ninja, not as strong as a family tie, but enough of one that condemning dozens or hundreds of them to death to save herself is abhorrent. Far far worse than what Mari did, since no one even died.

Keiko knows this, as a fellow coordinator she also feels duty to these ninja. It's why she freaked out when we suggested new clanless adoption laws.
 
Keiko knows this, as a fellow coordinator she also feels duty to these ninja. It's why she freaked out when we suggested new clanless adoption laws.
Pretty sure she freaked out because it would reduce the power of the KEI, and thus of Ami/herself, not because it would have hurt any of the clanless ninja. But maybe I'm thinking of a different freakout than you are.
 
Sure, but this isn't exactly an endorsement of Keiko's decision making process. As a logistics spec, Keiko should be well aware about how clanless nin are forced into poverty by the Hokage.

Forcing them to choose between watching themselves and their family starve and dying horribly but having their family live isn't much of a choice at all.
A horrible choice is still a choice. Mari didn't even bother, she essentially pushed Keiko into the pool instead of making her jump with <insert threat here>. That's what Kei is angry about.
As to moral responsibility to these people, how much of a hypocrite can Keiko be? Ami is a coordinator of KEI. She has a duty to these ninja, not as strong as a family tie, but enough of one that condemning dozens or hundreds of them to death to save herself is abhorrent. Far far worse than what Mari did, since no one even died.

Keiko knows this, as a fellow coordinator she also feels duty to these ninja. It's why she freaked out when we suggested new clanless adoption laws.
Yes, and I am pointing out the difference between "duty as a superior officer" and "duty as a mother", which I think is a critical difference going on here.
 
I cannot understand being persistently angry and shaming someone for making the logical choice to save lives. I'm uncertain if I want to. I feel like the thread is on the opposite end of the unreasonability commonly pointed at Hazou.
 
A horrible choice is still a choice. Mari didn't even bother, she essentially pushed Keiko into the pool instead of making her jump with <insert threat here>. That's what Kei is angry about.

To be fair, one could make the argument that Kei already made her choice. Uplift and Goketsu were/are both a family, a ninja team and a group ready to fight to death to change the world. If Mari put Hazou in danger, he would probably say "You did well, because we as a group already decided that the death of one is not acceptable, therefore we already gave implicit approval of maneouvers of risk management.All or nothing".
This said, calling the "Final Gift Program" a choice, is nothing less than a "Well, actually", IMHO. On top of that, it's actually worse than that, because it shows how fixable to problem is, making it basically an artificially created choice to force people to sacrifice themselves. At least Mari had actual reason to do what she did, the Final Gift Program is basically Ami going "please don't kill me Oro, also i want to bribe you".
 
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Pretty sure she freaked out because it would reduce the power of the KEI, and thus of Ami/herself, not because it would have hurt any of the clanless ninja. But maybe I'm thinking of a different freakout than you are.
It's the same freakout, I read it differently. I thought Keiko was more altruistic and less greedy than your reading.
A horrible choice is still a choice. Mari didn't even bother, she essentially pushed Keiko into the pool instead of making her jump with <insert threat here>. That's what Kei is angry about.
I kinda fail to see the distinction here IMO the FGP isn't a real choice. It's even been made clear in the text that if natural "volunteer" rates aren't high enough, they will be increased. But alright, let's say it is. Mari forcing Keiko to save Hazou that way would be worse since any forced choice would have to be carefully considered and premediated. Rather than what actually happened. Which was a chaotic effort to save Hazou's life.
Yes, and I am pointing out the difference between "duty as a superior officer" and "duty as a mother", which I think is a critical difference going on here.
I agree there's a difference but I weighted "duty as a mother" as less than 200x stronger than "duty as a superior officer". Regardless, it's a similar set of actions from Mari and Ami. Except Ami's were motivated by pure self-preservation and Mari was trying to save Hazou. Keiko should be cutting ties with Ami over this if she's willing to do it to Mari.
 
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