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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
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sounds like no... the Bears are a pretty laid back bunch, might take a while for them to get around to doing anything
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hey you've put in more work than any of us besides the QMs, I'd say you earned itUgh, that's what I get for being lazy this week
Don't forget to suspend Haru's punishment.
Paint
Definitely not an expert on Seventh Path diplomacy (yet). My interpretation of Ami is that she is able to conceive of what seems like any scenario and has created plans with the Frozen Skein on how she could react to maximize the utility of the Ami collective in those scenarios but she's also really good at improvising and most Amis that make up the collective probably aren't thinking in terms of utility but she's mentioned here:
that she's managed to arrange the members of Ami such that their actions as a whole are as an agent with a consistent utility function, individual parts of her don't necessarily value things consistently and so Ami (or parts of her) can come to care about people other than Keiko, but most of her actions overall will work towards her goals even if whatever Ami is speaking at different points in time aren't prioritizing the goals of the collective Ami. This would in some way account for the way she acts in Interlude: Lives As Yet Unborn and Interlude: Conflict Resolution, such that while she was aware she might hurt Hazo, her doing would potentially allow him to learn how to defend against social attacks such that he would be more capable of contributing to her plans in the future. She feels betrayed by him because she thought he understood her enough to know that while she hurt him deliberately she values his wellbeing and so she believes that the extent to which her actions prevents Hazo, Akane, and the rest of the family in the future is worth his temporary stress. I'm much less sure about why she apologizes later but I thinks its because she greatly underestimated the extent to which her actions would damage their relationship and while the collective Ami isn't apologetic because she can't change the past, individual members of the collective are able to sincerely apologize. I think part of it might be that she thought Hazo was more consequentialist than he is. She's right that he is consequentialist to an extent but his version of pseudo-consequentialism contributed to his breakup with Akane, with him viewing people as tools, and she maybe underestimated the extent to which him trying to grow out of that mindset has led him away from consequentialism in general, even though my understanding of Uplift is that most generally it is a consequentialism that views all human life and life that humans can potentially recognize as intelligent as having equal value. Such that she underestimated the extent to which her doing something that he should understand as good for Uplift overall would hurt him emotionally. This might also have to do with her maybe thinking of herself as a collective as a perfectly or close to perfectly rational agent which while she might be closer than almost any other character she's still human with human limitations and her expecting Hazo to be able to cope with the emotional consequences of acting like his decisions are based in consequentialism even though he's also human.
Going back to what I was talking about earlier in this post Ami didn't have enough information to come up with a diplomatic plan for getting clans on the Seventh Path to work together so her plan was based off what she thinks societies in general might look like, which is based on the Elemental Nations, and while she is to some extent aware of this she needs more information on how the clan bosses behave to come up with better plans.
Disclaimer: This is Ami so anything I have written about why she might have done something or what the Ami looks like other than being a plurality with members could be wildly inaccurate. This is an interpretation that I would have the greatest %, but that % would still be extremely low, likely <1% though I consider individual parts of what I'm saying more likely to be true.
Also I'm using words like 'agent' and 'utility' because I'm having difficulty expressing my thoughts, not because I think there completely accurate given that the characters wouldn't be thinking in those terms.
Also also were my distinctions between Ami as a collective and individual parts of Ami clear? What else was unclear? I'll try to answer but my responses may or may not actually clarify my argument.
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Good point, I'll add that
Maybe don't add that. I feel like if Hazo initiates a suspension of Haru's punishment then whoever that scarf person might be working for (from the public trial of Haru) could use that as more evidence of Hazo's favoritism towards people he knows. If someone else brings it up, then do it, but otherwise maybe we should just assume or tell him that once he has enough chakra he should participate in the war in some way.
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We're ?at war?, can't really afford to not put everyone we have in. Plus if Haru dies he redeems himself /s
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Ehhhhhh....I kinda prefer to not suspend Haru's punishment without orders from above. Obviously if Asuma sends him out then we aren't going to make him a civilian fighting in the front lines, and if Noburi goes out we can't keep his punishment...but if we have the option I would still argue that Haru should be civilian'd.
EDIT: Could you emphasize Kagome's sealmaster/cryptography skills instead of his security skills? The latter is a justification for him being sent out onto the front lines, and isn't really his forte compared to his Sealing skill.
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- Yes.
we're all gonna dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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For one thing, Kei isn't dumb. For another, she's still negotiating it with the Pangolins who will almost definitely make secrecy part of the deal, considering how strict about secrecy they were with us. For another I'm out of word space aaaaaaaaaaa
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I'm not saying she's dumb, it's just that we literally just got over the Isan plan where she was furious at us for proposing a stupid idea. I don't want a repeat of that. And I know that she will prioritize secrecy, I just want to make it clear that we also value these things and are taking this very, very seriously.
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I think I'm in favor of mentioning the idea of teaching Naruto Ghost Scales but I'm hesitant because I'm worried there's going to be some obvious disastrous consequence that is going to reflect badly on us that Kei will find. For example, a potential consequence would be FOOM OPSEC, though not necessarily that bad depending on when and where Asuma would be told about the potential plan. Proposing this shows that we know it benefits shadow clones, not that big of a deal; but we're also showing that we think Naruto could learn a jutsu like this in hours since at least to people who don't know just how useful shadow clones can be, if he's spending days (which would be someone learning insanely fast but believable for an S-rank) learning then Leaf is limited in the use of one of its most important assets. So people know that Naruto can learn impossibly fast and that we're thinking about uses of shadow clones, we've been careful about showing any signs of training with shadow clones but still. I think the most likely scenario if Kei approves of this plan depending on how the details get worked out is that Shikamaru finds out about FOOM or at least suspects. Not the end of the world, but still pretty bad, it depends on how much Kei's control over him in terms of their relationship extends to things important to the clan, so its still a pretty big leak but not necessarily a total breach of OPSEC. Somewhat less likely but still plausible is that sometime after the war Asuma thinks about what happened and gets suspicious, possibly asking us what we're hiding and we tell him it's clan secrets, he probably leaves it there unless we somehow get close to looking like we're considering treason during the war. Worst case but >5% scenario in my opinion if we talk to the Hokage about this close to when major meetings happen about who goes where and we'd have to talk to him before Naruto is deployed so I'm not sure how much time we have is that we're talking when Orochimaru is nearby maybe coming to or leaving the building; there's a good chance that he has some sort of bio-augment or something that would let him hear the conversation and Asuma's rule isn't strong enough that he'd be worried about doing so. There's a very high chance we're close to game over; Orochimaru is probably aware of the koi fish or something like them that uses chakra, he knows shadow clone and he's a technique hacker. There's probably a way to minimize the risk of Orochimaru figuring out FOOM, but the result is so bad I'm really nervous about the plan. Even if Kei thinks of this or other risks I'm not thinking of, whatever happens this looks really bad to her, which depending on how much she already thinks we're contaminated by the Out might not be that bad. Still if we're conserving words on something that while small feels like it could be very high stakes I don't think we're in a good position.
I just though of a solution while writing this. Ask Ami about this plan, she already knows about FOOM and she's shown a pretty good capability of modeling Orochimaru and things in general, she'd be able to predict most possible risks and the potential danger to Keiko is too great for her to approve of it if the risks are too significant without the benefits being worth it. Although, I'm not sure Hazō trusts her enough to ask for her advice on something this important.
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The effects and abilities of Shadow Clone are not secret (in Leaf at least). Naruto's Shadow Clone skills and ability to learn quickly are public knowledge in Leaf if I understand correctly. I mean he took Chuunin exams a year after graduating and passed. He's just considered the exception to the rule, most people don't have the resolve to do what he does with clones, they get sick.
Thanks for letting me know, I didn't consider that it being public knowledge would make those scenarios much less likely since other people haven't figured out how to exploit shadow clones already. I'm still wondering what would happen if we talked to Ami, or letting her know and therefore giving her more opportunity to influence the outcome to benefit herself in addition to us in exchange for a favor, but I think that's largely OOC because Hazo has never asked her for advice and Ami being my favorite character makes me more inclined towards interacting with Ami than Hazō would be.
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I think Ami has already sort of cracked FOOM, the only piece she's missing is how we're boosting our Resolve. She assumes we're using a Jiraiya hack, when really Hazou's just carefully arranging everyone to train up their Resolve with FOOM itself. As far non-Goketsu is concerned, I'm pretty sure they only really grind up Shadow Clone to use as intended: scouting and expendable asset and such. When they're in Leaf they still use it for a 1.3x training boost or whatever they've got it at but I don't think anyone else is grinding it solely for this purpose like we are
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@_The_Bomb @Paperclipped why do both of you run Anti-Byakugan seals 9 hours a day every day in your OPSEC plans? I'm fairly confident when they were originally shown we were told they didn't have the lifespan and radius for that kind of application.
Agreed, now is the time to parole him, we gotta pull out all the stops here.
Honestly, Haru's punishment isn't at important as more people dying. He's a combat asset at a time where we desperately need combat assets. Furthermore, Noburi might not even be in a position to drain Haru every day if he's deployed to the front.