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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Best way to help solve the famine problem is to open up new markets. Which means we should start looking into getting more scrolls
 
eaglejarl said:
Cannai cocked his head in confusion. "Gold is rare?" He tipped his head the other way in a gesture that would have been adorable had he not been larger than a chakra bison. "When you say 'gold', you're talking about those shiny yellow rocks, right?"
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Cannai seems amused by the idea of gold being a rare resource, which makes me think he's got a lot lying around. Methinks opening up some trade with the Dogs could help us a lot in combating some of the famine going around.
 
I was under the impression that the famine was because people didn't have money and thus couldn't afford food, not because the food itself was expensive/scarce. Am I wrong about that?

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My point is that (assuming I'm not wrong) lowering the cost of food would only help some of the people, since farmers then wouldn't be making enough money to pay food/rent/whatever farmers need.
 
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Do we have any idea what % of the population is food insecure and/or starving right now? Is this phenomena happening only in Konoha proper or this something that has been outlying areas as well?

I also agree that pursuing the gold from the Dogs in order to buy foodstuff elsewhere is a good measure (even if it can only function as a stopgap). This next bit would probably be something we'd need to run by Asuma first because it could potentially give up sensitive strategic information but we could send out multiple missions perhaps and seed information that the Goketsu are willing to buy large amounts of food. That way we don't have to be spending valuable labor-power on these food missions. Of course this would then most likely result in a trade-off with us needing to spend more money instead of more labor-power.

I will say that a potential flaw/ a dynamic we should be aware of is that if we suddenly start flashing a lot of gold around, after nearly not being able to pay our debts (bank run) then people may think it is some kind of trick and that might also have negative economic effects. I don't know how likely that is, or how far rumors may have spread already, but I think its something we should keep in mind.
 
Sentient Tree said:
I was under the impression that the famine was because people didn't have money and thus couldn't afford food, not because the food itself was expensive/scarce. Am I wrong about that?

Edit:
My point is that (assuming I'm not wrong) lowering the cost of food would only help some of the people, since farmers then wouldn't be making enough money to pay food/rent/whatever farmers need.
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If we have lots of gold we can just buy a fuckton of food from one of the other major powers (Mist?) or several allied minors, and distribute it until the economy recovers from the shock of the scrip fiasco.
 
Sentient Tree said:
I was under the impression that the famine was because people didn't have money and thus couldn't afford food, not because the food itself was expensive/scarce. Am I wrong about that?
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eaglejarl said:
"Of course n—" Haru stopped and coughed. "I mean, no, they don't. There isn't a scrap of scrip in the city because the Hokage ordered everyone to sell it to the Tower at face value. Of course, there wasn't enough money in the city to pay for all of the scrip we printed so people are scrimping and struggling while the tax men are shaking down the Daimyo and all his nobles to collect enough ryō to pay off. The Tower has commandeered most of the food in the city and is rationing it out to ensure that no one starves." He snorted. "Plus, there's a swarm of Tower-funded C-ranks for ninja to go bring food in from the countryside. None of the ninja are starving."

"None of the ninja are starving," Hazō said carefully.

"Yeah."

"The Summoner network is being tapped for food purchases," Akane said, trying to inject helpfulness into her tone. "Enma has been very generous with his terms and there was apparently a bumper crop in Monkey this year so they're able to spare quite a bit. It's mostly fruits and nuts but it's something."

"How did I not know about this?" Hazō asked.

Haru snorted. Akane flicked a disapproving glance at him and then looked back at Hazō and shrugged. "You didn't ask. You were off running your mission with the Dogs and then you were in hospital. And it wasn't relevant to the things you needed to know—it's not a problem that we can solve, and the Hokage already has it in hand."

"Oh." He thought about that. "Is there anything else that I haven't asked about but should know?" He struggled to keep the words calm and non-accusatory.

Haru and Akane looked back and forth uncertainly. "I don't think so?" she said uncertainly. "It's a bad winter and there's a sickness going around Leaf. There's been enough snow that civilians can't really travel, so there's no trade coming in. Nothing important for our daily lives or anything that we can do something about. I've done what I can given our resources, including sending some of our ninja out hunting for meat that we can make available, but there isn't a lot of game right now."
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Combination of a couple of factors, it seems, including what you said.
 
So, gold can be used to pay for scrips and used to pay for food. Gottach. We need to do this soon. Can't have Konoha on the brink of disaster and distracting us while we work on the Dragon war.
 
Kiba said:
So, gold can be used to pay for scrips and used to pay for food. Gottach. We need to do this soon. Can't have Konoha on the brink of disaster and distracting us while we work on the Dragon war.
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Would the sudden influx of gold even help? It seems to me that it might devalue gold in general due to the sudden surplus of supply. Might be a thing to sanity check with Kei and Ami, just in case (if nothing else, it provides narrative support to our stated trust in them).
 
RandomOTP said:
Would the sudden influx of gold even help? It seems to me that it might devalue gold in general due to the sudden surplus of supply. Might be a thing to sanity check with Kei and Ami, just in case (if nothing else, it provides narrative support to our stated trust in them).
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Currency is already devalued by dint of our scrips being paid back at face value.
 
Velorien said:
PSA: A clarification on the state of civilian rights in Leaf

It's come to our attention that there's been some unclear/contradictory information about civilian rights in Leaf. Please consider this an authoritative statement. If anything in past updates contradicts it, please assume that the characters misunderstood or miscommunicated the facts, or that the grue missed a spot.

To the extent that Leaf has laws as opposed to simply rulings by the Hokage, there are no laws protecting civilian lives as of the present day, 1069 AS. Protection for civilians comes from the existence of the Merchant Council, the body which regulates civilian trade and resource production in the Fire Country.

The MC is able to call an embargo which stops civilians from producing resources for, or providing services to, ninja. This would be a disaster for all ninja, since they do not do their own farming or crafting. However, it would also be a disaster for civilians, since many (if not all) ninja would resort to violence in order to obtain the resources they need. In addition, it would leave the village vulnerable to its enemies, meaning the Hokage would have to take extreme measures. It's never happened, so nobody knows what the extreme measures are, but they could range from executing and replacing the Merchant Council to total enslavement of the civilian population so something like this doesn't happen twice.

Thus, the MC is desperate not to find itself in a situation where an embargo is necessary. However, there are two circumstances which would force its hand.

1) The Hokage passes a law that threatens the entire civilian population. Allowing ninja to compete with civilians financially would be an example of such a law.

2) Ninja start killing civilians indiscriminately, and the Hokage fails to step in and stop them.

Murdering a single civilian will almost certainly not be enough to move the MC unless it was a very important civilian, such as a member of the Merchant Council. Murdering a small number, such as six yakuza, probably won't either. However, the Hokage is aware that the MC could ruin the village if driven over the edge, and will not be impressed with anyone bringing them closer to that edge without a good reason. Between this and the fact that lowering the number of civilians is generally harmful to the village, a ninja who comes to the Hokage's attention through lots of wanton murder can expect to have a bad time.
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This seems like it completely contradicts what Jirayia said about all of it. Especially the part where Hashirama apparently considered ninja "murdering" civilians a capital offense, enforced those laws, and those laws technically stayed on the books even during the reign of subsequent Hokages.

I always thought that the (on paper) greater rights of civilians was one of the main things that made Leaf/Fire special compared to the other four Great Villages/Nations. Does that mean that Jirayia was actually always deluded regarding the law and/or portrayed a much more rosy picture towards his adopted family? I mean he literally said that Hazō and Kagome low key risked their lives when they reacted in fight or flight mode when they were approached by a civilian kid and overreacted.
 
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Rafin said:
This seems like it completely contradicts what Jirayia said about all of it. Especially the part where Hashirama apparently considered ninja "murdering" civilians a capital offense, enforced those laws, and those laws technically stayed on the books even during the reign of subsequent Hokages.

I always thought that (on paper) greater rights of civilians was one of the main things that made Leaf special compared to the other four Great Villages. Does that mean that Jirayia was actually always deluded regarding the law and/or portrayed a much more rosy picture towards his adopted family? I mean he literally said that Hazō and Kagome low key risked their lives when they reacted in fight or flight mode when they were approached by a civilian kid and overreacted.
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Velorien said:
If anything in past updates contradicts it, please assume that the characters misunderstood or miscommunicated the facts, or that the grue missed a spot.
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@faflec I guess my question is why we are changing established quest canon this radically. Why were the rudimentary and often ignored in practice rights to life of civilians retconned? It feels like a weird and unnecessary move towards more grimdarkness.

To put it differently, Fire's civilian-friendliness was one of Hazō's stated reasons why Leaf culture was in his eyes superior to other cultures and why he is happy to have joined Leaf instead of some other Village. If that is all grued away then Hazō's decision in retrospect looks like it's based on nothing more than circumstance and opportunity. Rock or Cloud might have been better choices after all, based on reality as it is right now.
 
Rafin said:
@faflec I guess my question is why we are changing established quest canon this radically. Why were the rudimentary and often ignored in practice rights to life of civilians retconned? It feels like a weird and unnecessary move towards more grimdarkness.

To put it differently, Fire's civilian-friendliness was one of Hazō's stated reasons why Leaf culture was in his eyes superior to other cultures and why he is happy to have joined Leaf instead of some other Village. If that is all grued away then Hazō's decision in retrospect looks like it's based on nothing more than circumstance and opportunity. Rock or Cloud might have been better choices after all, based on reality as it is right now.
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Why would that be grued away?
 
Rafin said:
@faflec I guess my question is why we are changing established quest canon this radically. Why were the rudimentary and often ignored in practice rights to life of civilians retconned? It feels like a weird and unnecessary move towards more grimdarkness.

To put it differently, Fire's civilian-friendliness was one of Hazō's stated reasons why Leaf culture was in his eyes superior to other cultures and why he is happy to have joined Leaf instead of some other Village. If that is all grued away then Hazō's decision in retrospect looks like it's based on nothing more than circumstance and opportunity. Rock or Cloud might have been better choices after all, based on reality as it is right now.
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Velorien said:
To the extent that Leaf has laws as opposed to simply rulings by the Hokage
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Sounds to me like Jiraiya's talk was retcon'd such that Hashirama's policy of "don't attack civilians OR I WILL KILL YOU" was never legalized and was just some unofficial rule.
 
Oneiros said:
Best way to help solve the famine problem is to open up new markets. Which means we should start looking into getting more scrolls
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We have been talking about getting more to get more people to the 7th path for DRAGONWAR purposes. It'll take at least a few months to find a scroll+train someone though so it might take too long for the purposes of famine
 
*sigh*
Velorien said:
PSA: A clarification on the state of civilian rights in Leaf

It's come to our attention that there's been some unclear/contradictory information about civilian rights in Leaf. Please consider this an authoritative statement. If anything in past updates contradicts it, please assume that the characters misunderstood or miscommunicated the facts, or that the grue missed a spot.

To the extent that Leaf has laws as opposed to simply rulings by the Hokage, there are no laws protecting civilian lives as of the present day, 1069 AS. Protection for civilians comes from the existence of the Merchant Council, the body which regulates civilian trade and resource production in the Fire Country.

The MC is able to call an embargo which stops civilians from producing resources for, or providing services to, ninja. This would be a disaster for all ninja, since they do not do their own farming or crafting. However, it would also be a disaster for civilians, since many (if not all) ninja would resort to violence in order to obtain the resources they need. In addition, it would leave the village vulnerable to its enemies, meaning the Hokage would have to take extreme measures. It's never happened, so nobody knows what the extreme measures are, but they could range from executing and replacing the Merchant Council to total enslavement of the civilian population so something like this doesn't happen twice.

Thus, the MC is desperate not to find itself in a situation where an embargo is necessary. However, there are two circumstances which would force its hand.

1) The Hokage passes a law that threatens the entire civilian population. Allowing ninja to compete with civilians financially would be an example of such a law.

2) Ninja start killing civilians indiscriminately, and the Hokage fails to step in and stop them.

Murdering a single civilian will almost certainly not be enough to move the MC unless it was a very important civilian, such as a member of the Merchant Council. Murdering a small number, such as six yakuza, probably won't either. However, the Hokage is aware that the MC could ruin the village if driven over the edge, and will not be impressed with anyone bringing them closer to that edge without a good reason. Between this and the fact that lowering the number of civilians is generally harmful to the village, a ninja who comes to the Hokage's attention through lots of wanton murder can expect to have a bad time.
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eaglejarl said:
For the first couple of months he personally executed any ninja who stole from or injured a civilian; let me tell you, that shit stopped real fast. Those laws are still on the books, too; the Hokage has a legal obligation to ensure that any ninja who hurts a civilian is severely punished and anyone who kills a civilian is executed. That's why I was so freaked out at your little misstep in the market."
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@eaglejarl @Velorien Can you clarify the contradiction between these things, so that we can lay things to bed?
 
To be honest, it feels like post-grue canon has a bias towards current plot threads even if it is to the detriment of overall long term world-building. Civilians rights have to be erased from reality so that Asuma doesn't demand Haru's head and Haru's killing of Yakuza has to remain for the relationship fallout between Hazō and Akane from the newest chapter to make sense. But I think Id rather have those two chapters retconned than have the whole thing that made Leaf special be thrown out. Especially because the whole Leaf Merchant Council explanation, from a Doylist perspective, came into being to explain why ninja don't use their powers to dominate the civilian market. And if the underlying Watsonian ethical underpinnings of that get removed then it feels much more like the QMs just created the Merchant Council because they didn't want to deal with the question at the time, rather than them having looked for a way to make a world where ninja don't use their powers like that consistent.
 
RandomOTP said:
Would the sudden influx of gold even help? It seems to me that it might devalue gold in general due to the sudden surplus of supply. Might be a thing to sanity check with Kei and Ami, just in case (if nothing else, it provides narrative support to our stated trust in them).
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We would need a "conquer the New World" amount of gold to do this. Extremely unlikely to happen. Pangolin gold never came close to doing that.
 
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