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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I think we should take steps towards teaching Naruto Ghost Scales. It stands out head and shoulders above every other jutsu that we know or even know about which would increase his combat efficacy. As no one is so stupid as to empower people they anticipate one day having to fight so dramatically, the only conclusion he could draw from this is that we're serious about Leaf and we're serious about him. These seem like huge wins to me, to say nothing of the fact that Leaf is where the people we love live, and that Naruto is a big part of Leaf's continued existence via detente.

[Y] Plan Fragment: Get Naruto Ghost Scales
  • Approach Kei.
    • Ghost Scales are a Goketsu clan secret, but before that, they're a Pangolin jutsu - and your jutsu.
    • We want to teach Naruto Ghost Scales and we want you to sanity check it first.
      • Reason 1: dramatically increasing Naruto's combat efficacy makes Leaf a safer place - at least, inasmuch as having any S-ranker does.
      • Reason 2: teaching Naruto a jutsu which massively increases his combat efficacy is the literal opposite of treason and we could probably stand to even that out.
      • Reason 3: while the least important reason, doing something like this might help defrost Uzumaki-Goketsu relations. We don't want anything from him for this, but he's at least vaguely our brother and he can't stand us.
    • Questions:
      • We have concerns about the idea of effective armour getting into the world. Do you think Naruto could spin this as Nine-Tails bullshit, or would this blow the lid off of everything?
      • We have concerns that he'd decide that this is important enough that he just shares it with everyone once he finds out what it is even if he promised not to. If you give us the go-ahead, we want to approach Asuma and tell him that we have a Goketsu clan secret which would massively benefit the entire village but would disproportionately benefit Naruto and that we really only want to share it with him. From there, we want to get his help and advice negotiating that deal. Does that sound...smart?
      • Do you think that the Pangolins would be open to this? They've demonstrated that they're willing to teach jutsu to Leaf shinobi (they taught the jonin with you when you took out Conjura PCJ) but we don't know whether that was an entirely separate matter given how awesome GS would be.
        • Additionally: we want this to be a gift, not an opportunity for Naruto to enrich the Pangolins and get a shiny new jutsu. What do you think they'd ask for it?
      • Most importantly: are you okay with this? Simply not doing this is a very viable option. This is your jutsu before it's a clan jutsu.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
I think we should take steps towards teaching Naruto Ghost Scales. It stands out head and shoulders above every other jutsu that we know or even know about which would increase his combat efficacy. As no one is so stupid as to empower people they anticipate one day having to fight so dramatically, the only conclusion he could draw from this is that we're serious about Leaf and we're serious about him. These seem like huge wins to me, to say nothing of the fact that Leaf is where the people we love live, and that Naruto is a big part of Leaf's continued existence via detente.

[Y] Plan Fragment: Get Naruto Ghost Scales
  • Approach Kei.
    • Ghost Scales are a Goketsu clan secret, but before that, they're a Pangolin jutsu - and your jutsu.
    • We want to teach Naruto Ghost Scales and we want you to sanity check it first.
      • Reason 1: dramatically increasing Naruto's combat efficacy makes Leaf a safer place - at least, inasmuch as having any S-ranker does.
      • Reason 2: teaching Naruto a jutsu which massively increases his combat efficacy is the literal opposite of treason and we could probably stand to even that out.
      • Reason 3: while the least important reason, doing something like this might help defrost Uzumaki-Goketsu relations. We don't want anything from him for this, but he's at least vaguely our brother and he can't stand us.
    • Questions:
      • We have concerns about the idea of effective armour getting into the world. Do you think Naruto could spin this as Nine-Tails bullshit, or would this blow the lid off of everything?
      • We have concerns that he'd decide that this is important enough that he just shares it with everyone once he finds out what it is even if he promised not to. If you give us the go-ahead, we want to approach Asuma and tell him that we have a Goketsu clan secret which would massively benefit the entire village but would disproportionately benefit Naruto and that we really only want to share it with him. From there, we want to get his help and advice negotiating that deal. Does that sound...smart?
      • Do you think that the Pangolins would be open to this? They've demonstrated that they're willing to teach jutsu to Leaf shinobi (they taught the jonin with you when you took out Conjura PCJ) but we don't know whether that was an entirely separate matter given how awesome GS would be.
        • Additionally: we want this to be a gift, not an opportunity for Naruto to enrich the Pangolins and get a shiny new jutsu. What do you think they'd ask for it?
      • Most importantly: are you okay with this? Simply not doing this is a very viable option. This is your jutsu before it's a clan jutsu.
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I appreciate the effortpost and think this is pretty cohesive overall, but echoing sentiment from Maddie I don't think it would be very fun spending an entire update having a conversation that only preps for a second conversation on a different update
 
Shrooms said:
During the mission, Mari happened to say something very triggering and everything Kei had been repressing because of the status quo of trying to ignore your pain came rushing out.
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I read that more as Kei needing external validation for her guilt about "stealing" the scroll but I guess this part is open to personal interpretation . . .

Although x)

Velorien said:
In retrospect it is immensely telling that she considers my guilt over that outcome to be a purely personal issue, where as our team leader she was just as culpable if not more.
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Shrooms said:
People are understandably a lot less rational when exposed to their triggers, so being like "But is it optimal to have a panic attack right now?" is not a very productive way of discussing the situation, imo.
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Hmm...

Velorien said:
"No, the issue is what came next. As the discussion turned heated, I appealed to Mari's own past as a commonborn, which should surely allow her to appreciate the plight of the minority oppressed by Azai's regime. Far from it.
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That's not from her panic attack but from the following discussion with Hazou . . . poor Kei, such humble, very trigger

Shrooms said:
Mari preferred to get a guaranteed win, Kei preferred trying harder to remove a tyrant.
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She could have expressed her preference without accusations about Mari being motivated by moral bankrupcy.

Shrooms said:
What does this test indicate, exactly?
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That, just like Jiraiya delivered just deserts to Hana and Mari delivered Ego Management Soup Jutsu to Ami, Kei will eventually, by sheer statistics, turn her hubris towards someone who has overwhelming personal power and doesn't accept her inner struggle as a holy grail that absolves her of all tangible consequences and will therefore tear her spine out to make a point x)

Or so one hopes.
 
Shrooms said:
I appreciate the effortpost and think this is pretty cohesive overall, but echoing sentiment from Maddie I don't think it would be very fun spending an entire update having a conversation that only preps for a second conversation on a different update
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1. I think that it could be a good scene.
2. I meant this more as a coherent explanation of the entire idea than an actual plan-proposal.
 
Also, insofar as opposing Naruto goes, it would not be through traditional combat that we took him out, it'd be through either genjutsu (a known weakness of his fighting style) or EM.
 
_The_Bomb said:
Are you drawing her, by chance?
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Naw. Just trying to figure out the puzzle that is Mari.

Anywho, I can see both sides of the argument regarding Kei blowing up on Mari.

I think that the important thing to keep in mind is that Keiko's feelings are valid. But we also shouldnt accept letting communication break down mid-mission or letting emotions run hot enough that it is the only avenue available for everyones safety. this can be very dangerous for all members of a team.

I don't think that type of behavior is acceptable anywhere, but of course, reality is different than the expectations of emotional discipline.

Still, as clan head, Hazou can not accept this. There has to be some type of punishment.

Kinda wondering if Leaf has emotional training or management that might help. Maybe Ino know something helpful...
 
Shrooms said:
I mean, this is a mission she was required to undertake with someone she arguably sees as an abuser (and arguably with some justice), so this is an extremely shallow view of the situation imo

Not that she's 100% in the right or anything, but c'mon
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Unless Keiko is unable to function b/c of the trauma (which she clearly wasn't), she has no business endangering everyone's life by fucking with the mission over this. That's the part that's bullshit. Arguably Mari is an abuser, a hostile ninja village is not the place to have that argument.

Keiko does similar things pretty regularly, torpedoing the Pangolin gold, running off to the Seventh Path for weeks at a time, etc. If she wants to resolve her issues she should communicate that she wants to have a mature discussion with the people involved once everyone is safe. Instead she bottles it up until she can't tolerate it and explodes with disastrous consequences.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Unless Keiko is unable to function b/c of the trauma (which she clearly wasn't), she has no business endangering everyone's life by fucking with the mission over this. That's the part that's bullshit. Arguably Mari is an abuser, a hostile ninja village is not the place to have that argument.

Keiko does similar things pretty regularly, torpedoing the Pangolin gold, running off to the Seventh Path for weeks at a time, etc. If she wants to resolve her issues she should communicate that she wants to have a mature discussion with the people involved once everyone is safe. Instead she bottles it up until she can't tolerate it and explodes with disastrous consequences.
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On the one hand, you're very right that is a pattern. On the other, I'd argue this is a step in the right direction? It wasn't the absolute worst time, just the worst timeframe. And she was expressing herself without completely melting down.. It wasn't pretty, but it was progress.

Plus, problematic it is, but it also isn't uncommon IRL. Attempting to internally deal with a thing then finding out your threshold can't take it and vocalizing it because of stress and pressure is not uncommon.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Arguably Mari is an abuser, a hostile ninja village is not the place to have that argument.
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I agree, like I said I don't think Kei is 100% in the right here or anything.

Sir Stompy said:
Keiko does similar things pretty regularly, torpedoing the Pangolin gold, running off to the Seventh Path for weeks at a time, etc.
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Each of these examples are like hundreds of chapters apart/in-universe months apart, I wouldn't call that "regularly". (Not saying that it is good, just that it's not nearly as regular of an occurrence as many people seem to think.) Hazou commits treason about as frequently as Kei commits family connecticide :rofl:
Halberdier said:
Attempting to internally deal with a thing then finding out your threshold can't take it and vocalizing it because of stress and pressure is not uncommon.
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This is pretty much what I was trying to say.
 
Cariyaga said:
That would be directly combatting ghost scales, which is why I did not suggest it.
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The comment I replied to sounded to me like opposing Naruto in general, and big spammy AOE would be pretty nice for the way he is now

EDIT: To clarify a bit, the way I read it was "Giving him Ghost Scales doesn't matter because we would oppose Naruto like this" but there are strategies we could successfully pull off that would become much less viable after sharing Ghost Scales, in my opinion.

Though my actual thoughts on fighting him or not is: Every chapter Naruto was in when he didn't think Hazou was evil or dumb, he came across as super chill and decent so I'm not too worried about needing to fight him especially once Hazou starts investing in socials
ESPECIALLY AFTER WE BRING JIRAIYA BACK
 
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Shrooms said:
Each of these examples are like hundreds of chapters apart/in-universe months apart, I wouldn't call that "regularly". (Not saying that it is good, just that it's not nearly as regular of an occurrence as many people seem to think.) Hazou commits treason about as frequently as Kei commits family connecticide
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Technically speaking 'regularly' means that it happens at consistent intervals rather than happening frequently. The fact that those examples are all hundreds of chapters/in-universe months apart actually lends credence to the idea of it being a regular thing, in the sense that you could make a statement like 'Keiko is overwhelmed with emotional turmoil every few in-universe months, even when it's a really bad time for that to happen'.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Technically speaking 'regularly' means that it happens at consistent intervals rather than happening frequently. The fact that those examples are all hundreds of chapters/in-universe months apart actually lends credence to the idea of it being a regular thing, in the sense that you could make a statement like 'Keiko is overwhelmed with emotional turmoil every few in-universe months, even when it's a really bad time for that to happen'.
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foiled by a technicality once again
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Technically speaking 'regularly' means that it happens at consistent intervals rather than happening frequently. The fact that those examples are all hundreds of chapters/in-universe months apart actually lends credence to the idea of it being a regular thing, in the sense that you could make a statement like 'Keiko is overwhelmed with emotional turmoil every few in-universe months, even when it's a really bad time for that to happen'.
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Except that only works if it's the same *number* of in-game months between each episode. If not then it isn't "regularly", it's "occasionally".
 
Sir Stompy said:
Keiko does similar things pretty regularly, torpedoing the Pangolin gold, running off to the Seventh Path for weeks at a time, etc.
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I checked this out. Here's what I've been able to come up with that involves Keiko interfering with the functioning of the team:

1068 AS
March 10 - After accidentally confessing to Mari, Keiko gets sent to the Seventh Path to make new contracts, and stays there for 10 days until Jiraiya's message forces her to return
November 9 - Keiko freaks out over Tenten's arrest
November 15 - Keiko attempts to murder Hazō while half-awake after a nightmare in which he becomes engaged to Ami
November 29 - Keiko attempts to murder Hazō for invading her privacy
December 26 - After Shikamaru's declaration of engagement, Keiko spends the night on the Seventh Path before the Chūnin Exam Finals

1069 AS
January 4 - Keiko unilaterally terminates the Pangolin deal
October 17 - Keiko fights with Mari in Isan
 
I'd also count Keiko murdering the Condor summoner without any input from Hazou and team, since keiko dying interferes with team functioning.

For things that didn't happen, but that Hazou pilot thought would happen and therefore the possibility itself interfering with the team. Can't remember the specifics but something about Keiko's hypothetical freak out if Hazou suggested to get Asuma's permission for attacking the Hags, causing Hazou pilot to not suggest the idea.
 
Aaaaand also the whole time when she basically ignored Goketsu because the Nara needed her, appealing to her impostor syndrome, after the collapse.
 
Lampshade said:
There was that one where she sent Yuno to prison when she was about to contribute to a major discussion about the overarching goals of uplift.
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Doesn't count. Yuno accidentally dropped some secret lore about The Five that Kei absolutely had to keep secret and was well in her rights to send her away. If anything, she was being merciful.
 
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