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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Velorien said:
Be aware that this line as written comes firmly under "QMs doing the players' thinking for them".
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MMKII said:
I don't think we actually want to have you guys do the thinking with the goal of acquiring results and solutions, we want Hazou to spend a decent amount of time doing the thinking so as to get in the habit of being more analytical and observant about things.
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It was more intended as the old "Hazou considers people's feelings" directive, rather than "come up with some useful ideas". If you'd like us to be more explicit about that, I suppose we can, but it's a bit strange to put this in an action plan. That whole section about Hazou's thoughts is meant to inform the following sections where he discusses the meeting with the rest of the clan, and not produce a separate scene where Hazou sits and ponders Ami's behaviour.

I mean, I guess we could point out in detail what Ami was specifically doing and how that can be applied, but will that really make its way into the update and/or your model of how Hazou thinks? Hazou's a bright kid with a solid analytical mind, just thinking things through and noticing patterns should help him a lot. I'm not especially excited to cram specific conclusions into his head.

This is whole idea of making Hazou explicitly reflect on certain events is still relatively new as a plan component, so you have any thoughts on how it should be done, please let us know, @Velorien @eaglejarl @OliWhail.
 
Perhaps if we agree on notation for OOC clarification of the purpose of things in action plans, that would help?

It would be useful to differentiate. For example that line could have had [OOC:Make the attempt for purposes of personal growth and making good habits, actionable results not expected] or something
 
Hazou: "Oh, hey Kisame"

Kisame: "Howdy, fellow traitor"

Hazou: "Yagura sucks"

Kisame: "True, which is why I follow our Lord and Saviour, Uchiha Madara"

Hazou: "Cool cousin Maddi is doing his Moon eye plan?"

Kisame: "Yup, he calls himself Tobi now"

Hazou: "Neat, can I join? Oh and can I take a look at your weird sword? It's made with weird illegal methods right!?"

Kisame: "Sure thing, you like killing people too, right?"

Hazou: "Sure, why not, now let me see that sword"

Itachi: "What is happening"

e: Kisame was actually the only canon Akatsuki member who had a real reason to join and believe into the whole plan. Besides "My not-girlfriend died"-Uchiha Obito of course.
 
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Roomba said:
I mean, I guess we could point out in detail what Ami was specifically doing and how that can be applied, but will that really make its way into the update and/or your model of how Hazou thinks? Hazou's a bright kid with a solid analytical mind, just thinking things through and noticing patterns should help him a lot. I'm not especially excited to cram specific conclusions into his head.
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Isn't cramming specific conclusions into his head what the entire "thoughts" section is anyway?

Roomba said:
This is whole idea of making Hazou explicitly reflect on certain events is still relatively new as a plan component, so you have any thoughts on how it should be done, please let us know, @Velorien @eaglejarl @OliWhail.
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This will probably need more QM discussion, and for that matter player discussion would be helpful as well.

MMKII said:
Perhaps if we agree on notation for OOC clarification of the purpose of things in action plans, that would help?

It would be useful to differentiate. For example that line could have had [OOC:Make the attempt for purposes of personal growth and making good habits, actionable results not expected] or something
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This could be useful, and may be worth a shot. Always good to experiment with strange things--it's how we got the "sane plan lengths" system established, after all. However, it wouldn't help here. How can Hazō possibly ponder tactics and countermeasures without them then coming up the next time he talks about or interacts with Ami, at which point the QMs will have to invent them so that he can talk about them?

Two more problems that occur to me:

1) Tactics and countermeasures have always been the specific purview of the hivemind (in a way that, say, Hazō's love life hasn't), and part of the definition of Hazō as the player character is that he follows tactics and uses countermeasures as developed and voted for by the hivemind. To change that dynamic would be analogous to letting him decide his own XP allocation.

2) As with the new conception of social skills development, personal growth has to be connected to the activity being performed. Apart from the kunai, Hazō thinks about Ami's behaviour here rather than any of its tactical significance in regard to him, much less about his own responses. What he's likely to get out of that is understanding of Ami, or at least the persona she presents, and you could call that "+1 to Hazō developing insight into people", but that's a different thing altogether.

Edit: Also, I keep misreading "Kisame" as "Kagome", and it's glorious.
 
Velorien said:
What he's likely to get out of that is understanding of Ami, or at least the persona she presents, and you could call that "+1 to Hazō developing insight into people", but that's a different thing altogether.
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The rest of the hivemind can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's part of the point. We're trying to change Hazou's characterization to be less... oblivious, socially.
 
Cariyaga said:
The rest of the hivemind can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's part of the point. We're trying to change Hazou's characterization to be less... oblivious, socially.
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Talking to Ino to get her extensive insight on how human psychology works could be a big help to Hazou in this regard. Since Mari isn't available I can't think of a better person to help Hazou understand people, and confusing people like Ami in particular.
 
Velorien said:
This could be useful, and may be worth a shot. Always good to experiment with strange things--it's how we got the "sane plan lengths" system established, after all. However, it wouldn't help here. How can Hazō possibly ponder tactics and countermeasures without them then coming up the next time he talks about or interacts with Ami, at which point the QMs will have to invent them so that he can talk about them?

Two more problems that occur to me:

1) Tactics and countermeasures have always been the specific purview of the hivemind (in a way that, say, Hazō's love life hasn't), and part of the definition of Hazō as the player character is that he follows tactics and uses countermeasures as developed and voted for by the hivemind. To change that dynamic would be analogous to letting him decide his own XP allocation.

2) As with the new conception of social skills development, personal growth has to be connected to the activity being performed. Apart from the kunai, Hazō thinks about Ami's behaviour here rather than any of its tactical significance in regard to him, much less about his own responses. What he's likely to get out of that is understanding of Ami, or at least the persona she presents, and you could call that "+1 to Hazō developing insight into people", but that's a different thing altogether.
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So I will admit that this particular line was pretty poorly phrased on my part.

What I was envisioning was more along the lines of Hazou mentally going through the script of the meeting similar to a play-by-play, and looking at what Ami did and what worked very well, and then looking at what he did well and did not do well. Similar to how professional sports teams look at game footage, in a sense.

Pretty much doing something akin to a post mortem.

Kinda like this:

Velorien said:
"What is it?" Hazō asked, taking the scroll.

"A series of love letters."
Hazō felt a wave of horror. Was she going to keep playing that game here? Now? Given the… overwhelming… nature of the first letter, he honestly wasn't sure what he'd do if she went into lovestruck mode in person—or worse, for real. Reminder: jōnin were insane.
Right, straight out the gate with some love letter romance stuff. I was pretty thrown here. Okay so she paused here before continuing on to clarify to like, let me roast over the coals there for a bit or something.
"Written by Karasu Goemon during the late Warring Clans period and considered to be fine examples of period poetry."

Hazō relaxed. It was just a joking allusion in literary form.
Then she cleared things up, sort of. I remember being relieved. That is until...
"Addressed to a young sealmaster."

She had to be doing this deliberately, right? Hazō shivered at the idea that this might be the Mori equivalent of flirting.
AND THEN SHE DID THE THING AGAIN! Very frustrating and I was pretty much stunned here having to sit through that. Well that was probably deliberate and seemed to work well.Ugh. Look out for that routine next time. Throw it on the "Learn how to do that" list, maybe?
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Obviously it can't be as exact as that but you get the idea.

IMO this sort of dives beneath the tactics level and goes more towards the implementation level. Which at least for social stuff seems to be pretty much in Hazou-the-character's ballpark from what I'm reading on things. I'm not sure we can directly deal with these sorts of things without writing a 2-300 word long list of stuff to prime him before an encounter, since they happen at a level of nitty-gritty detail that goes beyond the strategy and tactics aspects of it.

I dunno, just some food for thought as far as how I'm looking at it. Hope that's helpful?
 
MMKII said:
Team Uplift's patron Seven Swordsman is obviously Zabuza.
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Noburi: On the count of 3 say what your favorite seven sword is, don't even think about it. Just yell the first one that pops up in your head, ready?

Hazo: yeah

Noburi: ok on 3

1...2...3

Hazo/Noburi: Samehada

Noburi: What!

Hazo: Did we just become best friends?!

Noburi: yup!
 
Shadowwarp said:
Noburi: On the count of 3 say what your favorite seven sword is, don't even think about it. Just yell the first one that pops up in your head, ready?

Hazo: yeah

Noburi: ok on 3

1...2...3

Hazo/Noburi: Samehada

Noburi: What!

Hazo: Did we just become best friends?!

Noburi: yup!
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Objection, Hazou would choose the Shibuki as his favorite.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Talking to Ino to get her extensive insight on how human psychology works could be a big help to Hazou in this regard. Since Mari isn't available I can't think of a better person to help Hazou understand people, and confusing people like Ami in particular.
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I don't think we know or trust Ino nearly enough to do this. Actually talking to her about Ami would essentially be spilling details of sensitive negotiations and Keiko's issues.

Velorien said:
Isn't cramming specific conclusions into his head what the entire "thoughts" section is anyway?
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It is, but it's also directly relevant to what is going to happen on-screen in the update. If we'd just put in "Hazou provides his analysis to the clan." without elaborating, that definitely would've been asking you guys to do the thinking for us. What conclusions Hazou draws for himself (and what he unconsciously absorbs) is largely an off-screen thing, I think - I don't think it warrants the kind of scene that the self-reflection about Mari and Hana did. Maybe we should do something like that once we're out of Mist, but that's neither here nor there.

I try to think of plans as a method of communicating useful information, and us writing a detailed post-mortem just doesn't seem that useful. Let's say we ignored wordcount limits and wrote something in the style @MMKII did a few posts back, for the whole update, and linked it to the plan. Would it actually have changed anything? Would it have helped @eaglejarl write the update, and all of you collectively, to plot Hazou's character development? That's the question I'm trying to answer here.
 
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Roomba said:
I don't think we know or trust Ino nearly enough to do this. Actually talking to her about Ami would essentially be spilling details of sensitive negotiations and Keiko's issues.



It is, but it's also directly relevant to what is going to happen on-screen in the update. If we'd just put in "Hazou provides his analysis to the clan." without elaborating, that definitely would've been asking you guys to do the thinking for us. What conclusions Hazou draws for himself (and what he unconsciously absorbs) is largely an off-screen thing, I think - I don't think it warrants the kind of scene that the self-reflection about Mari and Hana did. Maybe we should do something like that once we're out of Mist, but that's neither here nor there.

I try to think of plans as a method of communicating useful information, and us writing a detailed post-mortem just doesn't seem that useful. Let's say we ignored wordcount limits and wrote something in the style @MMKII did a few posts back, for the whole update, and linked it to the plan. Would it actually have changed anything? Would it have helped @eaglejarl write the update, and all of you collectively, to plot Hazou's character development? That's the question I'm trying to answer here.
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It certainly wouldn't be worth -13 XP :p
 
Roomba said:
Let's say we ignored wordcount limits and wrote something in the style @MMKII did a few posts back, for the whole update, and linked it to the plan.
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FWIW I'm happy to try to do annotated in-character (ish) commentary on interactions like this and post them. At the very least, it would allow me to compile a master list of tricky bullshit we can potentially defer to.
 
ContextBot said:
Counterargument:



He is also a social spec, according to the tournament google docs.

...

Shin is our Vegeta: "Bla bla bla Kurosawa pride"

Hazou is Goku: stack buffs punch hard, "Hey want to believe into Uplift and be friends?"

Next we go Super Kurosawa.
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Awesome, just what we need, Majin Kurosawa.



Velorien said:
Be aware that this line as written comes firmly under "QMs doing the players' thinking for them".
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Just abstract it as creating a tag.
 
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