Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

QTesseract · May 5, 2016

Jackercracks said:
Canon Uzumaki bloodline basically means lots of chakra and lots of energy.

Also healing. And chakra chains. What they had, to be specific, was "the sage's body", an inheritable trait that they shared with the Senju that did all/most of the above.

Jello_Raptor said:
Wait, and then they stuck a malevolent chakra battery in one of them? That could have ended badly.

The Uzumaki were really, really good at sealing, and had an active bloodlimit to further help (Mito and Kushinha) or had the greatest sealmaster alive+the god of death (Naruto). 2 of those 3 were also on a time crunch without any better options.

Radvic · May 5, 2016

faflec said:
Good idea? Bad?

We are likely nowhere near prepared enough to do much good in an actual council meeting. While Yoshida's insistence is oversold, I do believe we will need to be VERY careful in how we approach things. I care most about Kouta as a lever to move Gasai towards our side, and potentially as a way to be shown as lenient (even if we did break his shoulders). So yes, we should use Kouta for our political purposes, I just think they would be better served in a closed meeting with Gasai rather than a full council meeting.

faflec · May 5, 2016

Except our plan is to actually speak up on Kouta's behalf, and it doesn't matter if we follow Yoshida's plan (speak up during official council meeting) or do it our own way (behind closed doors at Gasai's): we should know how to articulate this.

Traiden · May 5, 2016

So we have a trump card in play that we can bring up. People will come looking for us. In following our tracks they will be lead right toward this village. Any number of interested parties will be coming after us, be it from Iron, Rain, Leaf or Mist this village will not stay hidden at all. Just to make sure everyone in the hivemind is aware. Leaf will most likely be looking after us first, given our connection with its Chief Spymaster. Our continued non communication with the outside would that we have been asked by Yoshida will bring scrutiny to the area.

Twofold · May 5, 2016

Radvic said:
I'd also, instead of jsut respectfully declining Yoshida, try to make a counter-offer, basically, we'll do all these things, and actively co-operate to boot, but we won't just be left out of the process. Then make talking to Yakahasi and Gasai a part of the conditions of our co-operation.

A solid argument would be that we can't really NOT interact with the village if Yoshida wants us to be actually helpful. At some point they will have to share their customs with us and it's better to start that process earlier than later.

If we can't get the moderates (Gazai, Takahashi) on our side by interacting with them, then this whole enterprise is doomed to fail anyway.

Meeting with two of the moderates face to face, especially with Gazai, is definitely something we can wrangle out of Yoshida. I would not be very surprised if she even expects something like that.

Traiden said:
Why send us out here for us to find and use the scroll ourselves and then take it away if we report to him that we found the scroll and a Village of Ninja of no affiliation?

Here's how I see Jiraya's situation:

He has a lot of shit going down and not enough manpower to get things fixed.

He gets some info about a possible summon scroll. It's just basically what ifs and rumors, not really worth checking out, resources for that could be better spend elsewhere.

Some snazzy missing-nin drop on his lap and he's not really sure about their loyalties or what to do with them. He sends them on a test mission and they do OK and don't fuck things up, great.

"I guess I'll just send them down to check out that summon contract rumor. It probably won't lead to anything but at least these guys get a vacation AND they stay out of my hair."

Some time later the missing-nin show up and lo and behold, they found a hidden Hidden Village and a very probable summon contract.

Now, Jiraya could spend resources acquiring the scroll and then give it to these missing-nin (still not sure about loyalties) OR he could get some well performing jounin from Konoha's roster and send them to acquire the scroll through negotiation OR subterfuge.

For Jiraya, getting the summoning contract for a Leaf-nin is way better than giving it to some missing-nin.

Alternatively he might be more interested in the manpower and resources of the village than the summoning scroll, in which case he will probably try to cut a deal with the village and won't give a flying frog whether we get scroll or not.

Only way we get the scroll is if we get it by ourselves or have something huge to use as a lever to get Jiraya to give it to us. Jiraya has zero interest to waste rare and very finite resources on boosting our powerlevels otherwise.

Radvic · May 5, 2016

Traiden said:
So we have a trump card in play that we can bring up. People will come looking for us. In following our tracks they will be lead right toward this village. Any number of interested parties will be coming after us, be it from Iron, Rain, Leaf or Mist this village will not stay hidden at all. Just to make sure everyone in the hivemind is aware. Leaf will most likely be looking after us first, given our connection with its Chief Spymaster. Our continued non communication with the outside would that we have been asked by Yoshida will bring scrutiny to the area.

I disagree. My understanding is that we haven't actually send Jiraiya any reports or anything the entire time we've been in Tea. Jiraiya knows we talked to our contact, then vanished into the forest (where there's a brand new fortress). That was 3 weeks ago. Given Jiraiya's claimed "hands off" approach to his operatives, I wouldn't expect him to come looking for us unless he needs us, at which point the trail will have gone cold (though he could likely figure out that we were in the area around Tonaki if he cared).

Traiden · May 5, 2016

@Twofold The information he sent us after had a greater chance of being true than not. What would his plans be if we did turn up again with a summon contract signed by a member of our group?

@Radvic But they don't know that, nor the time frame that would see an increase in ninja looking around the area.

Lets not forget that Yoshida is going to want to use us in her own best interest, not our own. Any information we get from her is to be considered suspect until independently verified. Noburi, how have your interactions with the townsfolk been, does it in any way match up with what has been said to us by Yoshida? Keiko, same question. All the team should be asking that question, what information about what we have seen so far in the village supports this method of behavior. Speculation: they know about genjutsu if they have a law about eye contact.

Velorien · May 5, 2016

Radvic said:
My understanding is that we haven't actually send Jiraiya any reports or anything the entire time we've been in Tea.

That's correct. Inoue-sensei's suggestion that you send him a detailed description of your swimsuit escapades to make him jealous was unanimously shot down.

Traiden · May 5, 2016

But they don't know that, and a large firework display that lights up the night sky is a very interesting event worthy of investigating.

Twofold · May 5, 2016

Traiden said:
The information he sent us after had a greater chance of being true than not. What would his plans be if we did turn up again with a summon contract signed by a member of our group?

The information he got was probably the same we did from the post office. Namely some history from hundreds years back, no way that was enough for him to believe with certainty that there's a scroll here.

If we show up with the contract signed then it's too late for him to do anything about it. He's not going to fight us for the contract but neither does he have any responsibility to give it to us if we can't get our hands on it on our own.

It might be taken as a show of loyalty to report this village thing now, but he also might (correctly) take it as a sign that we were not up to the task of getting the contract by ourselves.

MadScientist · May 5, 2016

A devious little idea has popped into my head.

We could turn them against each other with tribalism.

Find some way to divide them into two groups. The western elders and the eastern elders. The progressive elders and the conservative elders. The eagle elders and the rattler elders. Doesn't matter. What matters is that we start referring to them as though they are two distinct groups.

Tribal Conflict Ensues

Dividing people into groups is all that it takes to turn them against each over[1].
And once they're already competing they don't require much of a push to start competing for our support.
I hope that I don't have to explain where we go from there.

[1] Robber's Cave Experiment, Sherif et al 1954

Radvic · May 5, 2016

Traiden said:
@Radvic But they don't know that, nor the time frame that would see an increase in ninja looking around the area.

So the trump card is to tell them "actually, we're spies for the strongest nation, so you should listen to us." This requires that they believe us (and that we aren't just making up stuff), to care about the implications, and to think that the fact we're spies means they should let us go. I find each of these steps rather unlikely.

MadScientist said:
A devious little idea has popped into my head.

We could turn them against each other with tribalism.

Find some way to divide them into two groups. The western elders and the eastern elders. The progressive elders and the conservative elders. The eagle elders and the rattler elders. Doesn't matter. What matters is that we start referring to them as though they are two distinct groups.

Tribal Conflict Ensues

Dividing people into groups is all that it takes to turn them against each over[1].
And once they're already competing they don't require much of a push to start competing for our support.
I hope that I don't have to explain where we go from there.

[1] Robber's Cave Experiment, Sherif et al 1954

The problem is one of those groups wants us gone. I'm not sure that group is ever going to attempt to gain our support.

MadScientist · May 5, 2016

Radvic said:
So the trump card is to tell them "actually, we're spies for the strongest nation, so you should listen to us." This requires that they believe us (and that we aren't just making up stuff), to care about the implications, and to think that the fact we're spies means they should let us go. I find each of these steps rather unlikely.

The problem is one of those groups wants us gone. I'm not sure that group is ever going to attempt to gain our support.

Well then we divide them such that there are people who like us and people who hate us in both groups.

Radvic · May 5, 2016

Alright, let's go looking for where rolls might have happened so we can figure out if we're better, worse, even, or something else, at diplomacy than Yoshida.

Velorien said:
"What is going to happen to Kōta?" Inoue-sensei asked again.

"That depends," Yoshida said after a couple of seconds.

Possible diplomacy roll? If so, Inoue won

Velorien said:
"What is your interest?" Inoue-sensei asked.

Yoshida looked her in the eye for a few seconds. She seemed satisfied by what she found there.

Possible diplomacy roll, I think Inoue won?

Velorien said:
"What happens next? Who decides his fate, and how?"

Unbelievably, Yoshida smiled. It was just for a moment, but with Hazō's attention totally focused on her as it was, he didn't miss it.

Awareness roll check success? What does the smile mean and why did Yoshida try to conceal it?

Velorien said:
"My own, the Yoshida, oversee sealcrafting."

Hazō's eyes widened. If they could make an ally of the chief sealcrafter...

Deception check? Hazou failed. Yoshida should know Hazou cares about seals now.

Velorien said:
"Inoue Rika" – Inoue-sensei did not react – "is the lorekeeper.

Inoue passed her deception check.

Velorien said:
"You are to avoid these six like the plague," Yoshida repeated. "If they come to you, be as helpful and unthreatening as possible, avoid committing to anything, and don't say anything stupid. If they send watchers to spy on your camp, pretend they're not there, and don't do anything stupid. When it's time for actual negotiation, I will speak on your behalf."

Inoue-sensei opened her mouth –

"When I say 'don't do anything stupid', there are some things you need to understand right now,"

Diplomacy check? If so Inoue lost.

Velorien said:
"What about you?" Inoue-sensei asked. "Where did this village come from? How long has it been here? How did it come to be so isolated?"

Yoshida gave the team a measuring look.

"We're a religious community. When the world was in the grip of yet another of its endless wars, our founder came here with his closest followers to seek peace. We've kept his ways for hundreds of years, minimising contact with the outside world. In return, we've been blessed with a bountiful environment, natural allies and a quiet, peaceful existence – at least until you came.

Deception check? If so I think we passed.

Twofold · May 5, 2016

Radvic said:
Awareness roll check success? What does the smile mean and why did Yoshida try to conceal it?

Probably still Deception. Doesn't really matter since we have the 10 dice in both.

As for why she is smiling, I think she is just having a private joke about how Inoue is asking the right questions and not being an idiot. It might hint that we are missing something with our questions but I'm not really sure what that would be.

Radvic said:
Deception check? Hazou failed. Yoshida should know Hazou cares about seals now.

So if we try to cozy up to the sealmasters, she will be prepared for it. But we can also turn that one around. If she starts trying to lure us personally with Sealing we can play double agent or something like that.

Sleeps Furiously · May 5, 2016

Velorien said:
"What about you?" Inoue-sensei asked. "Where did this village come from? How long has it been here? How did it come to be so isolated?"

Yoshida gave the team a measuring look.

Radvic said:
Deception check? If so I think we passed.

Or a Diplomacy check which determined how much information we got for those questions. Hard to say whether we passed or failed in that case, since we don't know the baseline, but I don't think we learned much, so probably not greatly in our favor.

Sleeps Furiously · May 5, 2016

MadScientist said:
Well then we divide them such that there are people who like us and people who hate us in both groups.

Start tapir-drawn chariot races. Put relatives/supporters of Yoshida, Azai Rindou, Aida, and Takahashi as drivers on the Blue team. Gasai's, Inoue's and Azai Shuusuke's relatives/supporters go on the Green team.

(The Azais, in particular, we need supporters and not relatives for.)

ChronOblivion · May 5, 2016

MadScientist said:
A devious little idea has popped into my head.

We could turn them against each other with tribalism.

Find some way to divide them into two groups. The western elders and the eastern elders. The progressive elders and the conservative elders. The eagle elders and the rattler elders. Doesn't matter. What matters is that we start referring to them as though they are two distinct groups.

Tribal Conflict Ensues

Dividing people into groups is all that it takes to turn them against each over[1].
And once they're already competing they don't require much of a push to start competing for our support.
I hope that I don't have to explain where we go from there.

[1] Robber's Cave Experiment, Sherif et al 1954

I'd expect that a group of Village Elders, the only one of whom we've met being the remarkably canny Yoshida, who are the distinguished leaders of a firmly isolationist village with a strong religious and cultural mindset that promotes domestic unity and deeply distrusts and fears outsiders, will be slightly more difficult to manipulate than a group of teenage boys. There is not a single chance in hell they won't immediately realize what we're doing, and then be furious and vindicated that the accursed outsiders are trying to spread disunity among their ranks.

faflec · May 5, 2016

Hm. Anyone else think we should ask about consequences of Inoue's response to Kouta? We could phrase it like we wouldn't expect any serious consequences given our background but worry about Mikoto attempting an assassination/framejob.

HyperCatnip · May 5, 2016

I am really not sure if trying to conquer this village is a good idea.
We might have bitten more than we are able to chew here.

We are not powerful enough to outright conquer the village.
We may be powerful enough to deal enough damage to the village to cause it to irreversibly collapse.

This means that we shouldn't escalate the conflict to open warfare. However, Village Hidden In The Mountains will also be reluctant to escalate. This gives us a chance to engage in social combat.

And here things get complicated.
Hazou and Noburi (not to mention Keiko and Akane) are no opponents for experienced village council members. There is just no way Hazou and Noburi can reliably win persuasion/deception rolls against politicians with lifetime of experience. I'm afraid we will be losing our rolls even if we spend all of our XP on social stats.

I am also really disturbed by culture and religion of this village. Eye contact rules, fanaticism, this is all bad news. We are walking on eggshells here.

We should consider retreating and reporting to Jiraya. This might be too complicated for us to handle. I would prefer an intact team to team with, say, Akane dead and Keiko with tapir contract.

faflec · May 5, 2016

@HyperCatnip Noburi and Hazou certainly don't have the ability to deal with village elders...but they can get information through talking with civilians or low-ranking ninjas.

Sleeps Furiously · May 5, 2016

Traiden said:
But they don't know that, and a large firework display that lights up the night sky is a very interesting event worthy of investigating.

This seems worth working into the conversation. "Conflict certainly won't be good for anyone here. The most we can gain from a fight is to not die. And either way, the sheer volume of explosions that will be involved in the fight will draw every ninja on the peninsula to investigate."

Does Kagome have the ability to set up a dead-man's seal, so if it's tampered with or we don't reset it by X time, it blows our entire bunker in the village sky-high? If so, has he done that?

Traiden · May 5, 2016

The issue is not that we are spies but that their village is on a very small time frame until it is found out by powers greater than them and that our action or inaction could increase our decrease that hourglass. If we want freedom of movement we can leverage support in stalling the ones we know who would look for us.

HyperCatnip · May 5, 2016

@faflec, true.
Let's list our team's capabilities and see if it gives us ideas.
Hazou:

Taijutsu - can be a discussion topic with other Taijutsu-inclined ninjas.
Sealing - not sure if discussing sealing is a good idea.
Deception - if we need disinformation and rumor-mongering in the village populace, Hazou's the one who can do it best.

Noburi:

Medicine - everybody loves the healer. Also, that truth serum was awesome. Insanely risky, true, but still awesome.
Diplomacy - Noburi is our most popular team member for a reason. He can keep at improving relations with village as a whole.

Keiko:

Awareness - Keiko should be the most attentive junior team member. This goes well with her bloodline: she can notice and analyze economic, social and resource-related issues in the village.
Stealth - probably not high enough to sneak around and spy on conversations.
Zephyr's Reach - Keiko may be able to steal something interesting using her high Stealth and Zephyr's Reach, but Inoue is probably more suitable for such tasks.

Akane: should focus on getting better. No strenuous activity during next update unless absolutely necessary.
Kagome: non-existent social skills. Amazing destructive power. We should keep him away from sight, but not from mind. He is our Mutual Assured Destruction incarnate.
Inoue: She is infiltration specialist. This is the kind of mission she specializes in. I would let her take the lead if not for her absolutely terrible success rate. At least it's improbable she will meet her favorite creepy uncle here. Right?

Are there any interesting skill applications I missed? I'm sure there are.

MadScientist · May 5, 2016

People keep saying that we couldn't win if it came to war.

I'm not certain that's true.

Kagome has a lot of explosives. Demolishing their village counts as winning, right?

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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