Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- USA
So, as a general note, I think Keiko's basically right. Sure a tad harsh on herself as always, but yeah generally correct in her analysis.
The instinct here is to mitigate, argue for extenuating circumstances, try to make Keiko feel better, etc. Perhaps instead we just listen and seriously consider drastic actions and/or changes in behavior: Discuss cutting off the Pangolins unless they reform, establish an ironclad no-boat-murder policy regarding acceptable civilian losses, etc.
The instinct here is to mitigate, argue for extenuating circumstances, try to make Keiko feel better, etc. Perhaps instead we just listen and seriously consider drastic actions and/or changes in behavior: Discuss cutting off the Pangolins unless they reform, establish an ironclad no-boat-murder policy regarding acceptable civilian losses, etc.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
A rotating seal gun would need calibration, but adjusting the trigger condition mechanically based on that calibration is not hard. The more tricky bit is consistent speed. A flywheel helps with consistent behavior, but the main thing you need for consistency is a mechanical way to detect speed.
Old steam train engines addressed this with rotating spring loaded weights. As the speed increased, the centripetal force increased moving through ends of the weights against the spring force, and the follow mechanism moved (in the case of a steam train, to vent pressure, and thus limit the train speed).
However, from a tactical perspective, getting up to speed from slightly under will take a moment, and something using such a mechanism would be better used as a sniper rifle and not a pistol in terms of time and focus (game mechanics, require invoking a created advantage to not just miss).
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Uuuuh I'm gonna disagree with you here, this one you *can* actually make consistent with careful engineering. At least if I'm picturing it right.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Clearly we should convert to pacifism!
At least then, when we stand next to the bloody corpses of all those we have held near and dear, and our dreams of saving the world are ground into dust by the next maniacal S rank sociopathic tyrant of our generation... we will at least be victorious in spirit: that we alone remain on top of the arbitrary moral high ground that we have constructed for ourselves, and that we were only defeated by virtue of the opposition being bad people!
Yes, our reaction to everyone else dying horribly all around us in a blood drenched miasma of black and grey morality should simply be to abstain from this game altogether if it cannot be overthrown through virtuous means.
/s
But holy fuck though, we should probably mitigate this in some way. Pangolins are becoming murder nazi's. How do we stop them from genociding the shit out of everything, while still maintaining good relations? This seems problematic.
This is definitely a problem we should talk to Jiraiya about. He has decades of XP of dealing with the Toads.
@eaglejarl said (paraphrasing)"Jiraiya will be following you shortly, and Hana will be closing in quickly behind."
Likewise:
@eaglejarl @OliWhail @Velorien
Would putting off any major training until Jiraiya gets back be a faux pas? Would he be mad we didn't start training right away or something?
At least then, when we stand next to the bloody corpses of all those we have held near and dear, and our dreams of saving the world are ground into dust by the next maniacal S rank sociopathic tyrant of our generation... we will at least be victorious in spirit: that we alone remain on top of the arbitrary moral high ground that we have constructed for ourselves, and that we were only defeated by virtue of the opposition being bad people!
Yes, our reaction to everyone else dying horribly all around us in a blood drenched miasma of black and grey morality should simply be to abstain from this game altogether if it cannot be overthrown through virtuous means.
/s
But holy fuck though, we should probably mitigate this in some way. Pangolins are becoming murder nazi's. How do we stop them from genociding the shit out of everything, while still maintaining good relations? This seems problematic.
This is definitely a problem we should talk to Jiraiya about. He has decades of XP of dealing with the Toads.
@eaglejarl said (paraphrasing)"Jiraiya will be following you shortly, and Hana will be closing in quickly behind."
Likewise:
@eaglejarl @OliWhail @Velorien
Would putting off any major training until Jiraiya gets back be a faux pas? Would he be mad we didn't start training right away or something?
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That's my boy Hazō
Itachi is canonically a pacifist. Tell you the truth, I thought you were making a sly reference to that form of 'pacifism' at first.
No, I do not think that word means what he thinks it means either, but are you going to tell the maniacal S rank ninja standing on a pile of his own family's corpses that his arbitrary moral high ground is ill-constructed?
- Location
- Potato land
This isn't a binary choice, either pacifism or full-on murderhobo. Abstaining from the game isn't an option, but playing it differently than everyone else is, might be. It's not like we didn't have a choice in any of the situations Keiko brings up as examples of her own moral decay.
We could have refused to follow Minami's orders to sink the Sunset Racer. It would've cost us a lot, but it was a choice we could've made. We can, at any point, take a tougher stance with the Pangolins, or relinquish the scroll completely. It will cost us a lot, but we absolutely can. And so forth.
The problem, as I see it, is that we keep accruing debt without any attempts at paying it off, so to speak. We do morally reprehensible things, with the promise that we'll make up for it by doing better in the future. So, for example, our dealings with the Pangolins are justified by them propping up the Goketsu clan and Jiraiya's position, which will let us improve the lives of a lot of people, eventually. Except, this "eventually" never seems to materialize.
And so, rather than bemoaning the state of the ninja world and the black and grey morality it forces on us, I think we should actually use all of this power and influence we've acquired to make things better. Sacrifice some of it, even, if that's what's necessary. Thus far, our participation in the ninja game is a net negative. It's high time that changed, I think.
The practical argument, I think, is that if the Pangolins overdo their aggression on the Seventh Path, Keiko will pay the price for it on the Human Path. Eventually, a coalition of summoners will form with the express purpose of assassinating her. Wouldn't be surprised if the Condor summoner was already scheming something like that.
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- Location
- USA
I don't particularly mind going all grey-morality. I'm just tired of the thread/Hazou spouting all this morality bullshit and never putting any money where his mouth is. Hazou's singular fixation has by and large been the accumulation of influence and power. That he murkily intends at some point in the distant future to use that power for benevolent purposes doesn't really have much impact when it's been literal years and we're deep deep in the red by Hazou's own moral accounting.
e: So yeah what @Roomba said.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Jiraiya: *dad voice* I'm not mad. I'm just... disappointed.
Well, its the Warring Era China problem. Can't exactly stop fighting and defining the rules of the fight to remove the more unsavory bits is going to require overwhelming power on the side of the definer (or group of definers).
No real solution here in the short term other than taking the fastest path to realization regardless of what steps you have to get there, a la Madara, or continuing the balancing act until you reach a better place.
No real solution here in the short term other than taking the fastest path to realization regardless of what steps you have to get there, a la Madara, or continuing the balancing act until you reach a better place.
Actually, I think that this just isn't true in this case. I'm struggling to think of any amount of good that the pangolins could be applied to that outweighs even the genocide that already happened.
In retrospect, I would probably vote not to have gotten their scroll in the first place, given the chance.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
So, we need to ask Keiko if she objects to supporting Leaf and the Pangolins in general due to the intense conflict on their respective paths, or if she objects to just us supporting them with actions that directly cause more death and destruction. I figure her opinions are kind of mixed, because she sees herself appalled at not only the way her actions have caused deaths but by the fact that the people she sides with aren't quite 'the good guys'.
If Keiko, on further introspection and dialogue, comes to the opinion that she's okay with supporting Leaf and the Pangolins even if they do bad things, provided that she is not the cause of those bad things, we can try to direct her towards morally cleaner but still important missions, like our clanless tutoring ambitions or our 'build walls for settlements' initiative. More than that, the Mori traditionally work in logistics so we could angle for her to, when her strength as the Pangolin Summoner are not needed by Leaf, have a cleaner home occupation of logistics. It's not perfect, but hopefully with it Keiko would be able to accept her situation long enough to more completely follow her thoughts to their conclusion and figure out her true stance on these issues.
Still, uh, I kinda get the feeling that if we don't start paying back our karmic debt soon Keiko will become disillusioned with us. In the worst case, we do a significant, mostly unjustified evil for the sake of a long-term greater good and Keiko decides enough is enough and cuts ties with us entirely. Let's not get that far, please.
If Keiko, on further introspection and dialogue, comes to the opinion that she's okay with supporting Leaf and the Pangolins even if they do bad things, provided that she is not the cause of those bad things, we can try to direct her towards morally cleaner but still important missions, like our clanless tutoring ambitions or our 'build walls for settlements' initiative. More than that, the Mori traditionally work in logistics so we could angle for her to, when her strength as the Pangolin Summoner are not needed by Leaf, have a cleaner home occupation of logistics. It's not perfect, but hopefully with it Keiko would be able to accept her situation long enough to more completely follow her thoughts to their conclusion and figure out her true stance on these issues.
Still, uh, I kinda get the feeling that if we don't start paying back our karmic debt soon Keiko will become disillusioned with us. In the worst case, we do a significant, mostly unjustified evil for the sake of a long-term greater good and Keiko decides enough is enough and cuts ties with us entirely. Let's not get that far, please.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
By the way, this was legitimately a really powerful line and I'm glad I got to see it. The mental image it produced worked really well with it, Keiko in the shade a bit away from the campfire, staring intently ahead of her but unable to see far into the darkness. As much as hearing Keiko's moral dilemma this update troubles me, I really appreciate the delivery of this moment.
- Location
- floating away
I think we should take a page out of the book of the EU in our mid term uplift goals here- facilitating trade to the point that war becomes too expensive to actually want. Getting a daily long-haul truck seal going at near (or even below, if we wanted to subsidize it) cost would be an exceptional start to this. It would allow cultural mixing reducing xenophobia, too.
Potential roadblocks could include:
Merchant council
*(costs would be paper, ink, an A rank mission to guard it, the costs of repairs, and bootstrap costs of the next long-haul truck seal.)
Potential roadblocks could include:
Merchant council
- Depends on what exactly their opposition is, but giving them first dibs on some portion of the scroll should reduce some of their animosity.
- Hired jonin couriers as a deterrent. Hopefully this would be plenty profitable enough for this to be ongoing.
- Adding a youthenizer to a random slot could work as a deterrent to theft.
- Hopefully if we can get enough buy in from major + minor villages the potential benefits will be too great for other villages to pass up.
- Offering this deal even to the more antagonistic villages could also help prevent them viewing it as proof of a leaf coalition that needs to be destroyed now.
*(costs would be paper, ink, an A rank mission to guard it, the costs of repairs, and bootstrap costs of the next long-haul truck seal.)
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- Location
- Germany
While I agree that more work towards being a net positive would be nice, I think we and Keiko are forgetting that we can only pick the lesser evil.
Maybe CCNJ ask her for an equally pessimistic analysis of what would have happened without our interference at several stages?
Alone, Mari-sensei may well have died, while Kagome-sensei would still be a hermit.
We were only the first group Jiraiya sent after that rumour, so the pangolins probably would have gained a Leaf summoner anyhow. Since war is in their nature, not ours, it is likely they would still have attacked the condors even without our seals. It would have taken longer, and more pangolins would have died. Actually, didn't the war start before we gave them their Pankrator's Eyes?
Without that crumbling building (OPSEC, don't elaborate on Hot Springs) Mist would have been easy pickings for Leaf, leading to war.
Without us, Hyuuga might have become Hokage. Since he opposes cooperation, war between the villages would have been more likely, not less.
Yes, I know these are heavily biased, but so is Keiko's view. A Keiko who hadn't acted would have considered these her fault, she just wouldn't have cared.
Maybe CCNJ ask her for an equally pessimistic analysis of what would have happened without our interference at several stages?
Alone, Mari-sensei may well have died, while Kagome-sensei would still be a hermit.
We were only the first group Jiraiya sent after that rumour, so the pangolins probably would have gained a Leaf summoner anyhow. Since war is in their nature, not ours, it is likely they would still have attacked the condors even without our seals. It would have taken longer, and more pangolins would have died. Actually, didn't the war start before we gave them their Pankrator's Eyes?
Without that crumbling building (OPSEC, don't elaborate on Hot Springs) Mist would have been easy pickings for Leaf, leading to war.
Without us, Hyuuga might have become Hokage. Since he opposes cooperation, war between the villages would have been more likely, not less.
Yes, I know these are heavily biased, but so is Keiko's view. A Keiko who hadn't acted would have considered these her fault, she just wouldn't have cared.
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- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Agreed. It is time to make a truck seal and start making progress toward building lasting bonds and doing actual good (put our money where our mouth is). We have the tools for a seal tech civilization. We just need to do it and make it profitable for everyone involved.
It's too late for this plan. But it should be an item on the next plan.
If Kagome is willing to help, we can knock out a truck scroll in a single day (or do it ourself if we are willing to work more than 7 hours). Let's pitch the idea of the exchange mission being showcased during the tournament so that everyone can get onboard and show off the potential.
Once people get the idea, we just need to focus on organizing and bringing down the cost of storage seals (and if there is time, making a civilian usable version).
It's too late for this plan. But it should be an item on the next plan.
If Kagome is willing to help, we can knock out a truck scroll in a single day (or do it ourself if we are willing to work more than 7 hours). Let's pitch the idea of the exchange mission being showcased during the tournament so that everyone can get onboard and show off the potential.
Once people get the idea, we just need to focus on organizing and bringing down the cost of storage seals (and if there is time, making a civilian usable version).
- Location
- Europe
I do want to point out that it has been only around three months since we joined Leaf. Giving Leaf Skywalkers has been the right decision considering that Sarutobi, Jiraiya and Shikaku didn't decide to burn down all the other nations, that shows that Leaf is willing to be reasonable about this.
Sure Jiraiya wants to keep Leaf safe, but unlike the narrative that Mist has been creating, most Leaf ninja don't want to genocide all the others. So I am still positive about our abilitiy to do positive changes.
But yeah, we have to contain the Holy Pangolin Empire, wonder if the Eagle clan needs a summoner?
Sure Jiraiya wants to keep Leaf safe, but unlike the narrative that Mist has been creating, most Leaf ninja don't want to genocide all the others. So I am still positive about our abilitiy to do positive changes.
But yeah, we have to contain the Holy Pangolin Empire, wonder if the Eagle clan needs a summoner?
- Location
- USA
I will note that Jiraiya's bets seem to be in the vein of additional trade, so there is some progress on that front. If played correctly, his victory in the bets may be able to facilitate later deals that are more unfavorable to Leaf ("We'll get him this time!"), but still overall beneficial to Uplift.
While Keiko's concerns over the results of the Team's actions so far are valid, and the Pangolins need dealing with (more on that in a second), we need to remember that she tends to paint things in the worst possible light. If a Mist/Leaf alliance does emerge it will be as a direct result of their actions, and I wasn't under the impression that we were "never" going back to Mountain.
Basically this.
As for the Pangolins, their culture is inherently supremacist, and Keiko is right that war was inevitable with this unaddressed. Actually, now that I think about it, have any of the Pangolins ever expressed empathy, even among themselves? Curiosity and friendliness and lust, certainly, but empathy? Anyone? I was thinking about trying Ghandi them, but that might not be viable.
- Location
- CA
Oh, hey, social stuff! I actually feel qualified to post about social stuff. (this is a joke)
See, I think you're failing to account for the fact you're talking to a pessimist. Your implicit assumption is that "the alternative was really bad" will result in "therefore the situation now is comparatively better and you should feel better about it" and not "you're right, every path we have forward in this world is garbage."
And (it always feels unfair to start a post with a quote but this is a good segue) I think that's the main obstacle here. Pessimism means that a) Keiko has lower expectations of any promise to change and b) she won't be too moved by any immediate success. To actually make a difference here, anything that's done has to A) have an actual cost (so she knows we're committed) and B) has to be something we can build off of (she basically needs consistent positive reinforcement on the result). Just give her promises or vague assurances and you confirm all her worst fears here. We really can't afford that reputation hit--the Pangolins are ultimately optional, but losing Keiko herself means losing Uplift, because we lose her AND the assurance that Hazō is actually following through. A pessimist's watching eye keeps you honest on actual versus feigned idealism.
The problem is that when it comes to talking to the Pangolins, it's something she has to do on her own, possibly with a Jiraiya assist--her other teammates can't be there. Which, given she has negotiation but not conventional social, is a problem. (I don't think she's exactly going to be Intimidating the boss summon.) The first step is probably talking to the Pangolin leader and saying (eventually), "I know what you're doing, and this has to end here. Don't accuse anyone else of being in on this 'conspiracy.'" This satisfies both conditions A (whether he's ruthlessly pragmatic or actually a religious zealot, Boss Pangolin is not going to be happy) and B (because if they're subjugating more races and bringing them in as second-hand citizens/slaves, they can't hide that forever). And if it's a private conversation, we're not slapping him in the face in public and forcing him to play for keeps.
Jiraiya's permission, obviously, but I think he understands her well enough to realize that this can't go on forever as-is.
See, I think you're failing to account for the fact you're talking to a pessimist. Your implicit assumption is that "the alternative was really bad" will result in "therefore the situation now is comparatively better and you should feel better about it" and not "you're right, every path we have forward in this world is garbage."
And (it always feels unfair to start a post with a quote but this is a good segue) I think that's the main obstacle here. Pessimism means that a) Keiko has lower expectations of any promise to change and b) she won't be too moved by any immediate success. To actually make a difference here, anything that's done has to A) have an actual cost (so she knows we're committed) and B) has to be something we can build off of (she basically needs consistent positive reinforcement on the result). Just give her promises or vague assurances and you confirm all her worst fears here. We really can't afford that reputation hit--the Pangolins are ultimately optional, but losing Keiko herself means losing Uplift, because we lose her AND the assurance that Hazō is actually following through. A pessimist's watching eye keeps you honest on actual versus feigned idealism.
The problem is that when it comes to talking to the Pangolins, it's something she has to do on her own, possibly with a Jiraiya assist--her other teammates can't be there. Which, given she has negotiation but not conventional social, is a problem. (I don't think she's exactly going to be Intimidating the boss summon.) The first step is probably talking to the Pangolin leader and saying (eventually), "I know what you're doing, and this has to end here. Don't accuse anyone else of being in on this 'conspiracy.'" This satisfies both conditions A (whether he's ruthlessly pragmatic or actually a religious zealot, Boss Pangolin is not going to be happy) and B (because if they're subjugating more races and bringing them in as second-hand citizens/slaves, they can't hide that forever). And if it's a private conversation, we're not slapping him in the face in public and forcing him to play for keeps.
Jiraiya's permission, obviously, but I think he understands her well enough to realize that this can't go on forever as-is.
- Location
- Potato land
The condors aren't done for yet, their boss summon is still at large and heading a resistance movement, presumably with the help of their summoner. Perhaps, what we need to do is contact said summoner and attempt to broker a peace agreement - where the condors would become a Pangolin protectorate, but keep a measure of independence and cultural identity. As opposed to killing said summoner for their scroll.