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I'm not saying that everything else in that post was completely valid, I'm just saying that this was one piece of information I think your character would reasonably have had. I chose to write it as him getting the information (well, actually, the story mostly decided to write itself that way) but he likely would have had it earlier. Zabuza is a big name; it's very likely that everyone in the Mist forces knows him by name, rank, and reputation, even if they've never seen him.

Also, in case it wasn't clear, Saito-san was saying that the Mizukage is tacitly authorizing Zabuza's incursion, while keeping plausible deniability. Whether Zabuza is a maverick or not is something of a Jedi truth -- it depends on your point of view.

Yup, I got that - but implicit authorization with contingent disavowal is identical to no authorization for our purposes, since neither would permit an official envoy to Konoha. If Zabuza is running black and hitting Konoha patrols is a complication for him, that's important.

I'm surprised he would authorize it even implicitly, though, given how little he has to gain. Why risk {War ; Zabuza Captured ; Zabuza Dead} for targets as low-reward as us, unless he can't control Zabuza? Two of those risky outcomes hurt all of Hidden Mist; even just Zabuza Dead would be terrible for morale and international standing. Especially given we know that, since he was willing to send us into execution by battle (which implicitly carries the high risk of capture instead), the Mizukage would have to be stupid to include any critical-information or critical-object ninja in our ranks.
 
First post on this page

Did the forum eat this post?

I first used this icon in my LiveJournal around 2003.

One of my players copied my avatar exactly during my last quest. It was super random, he just straight-up switched his avatar to mine one day, confusing everyone.

Never explained why he did it, either...

---

Guys, since we have until Thursday before the next update, we don't need to decide on bloodlines and builds for the two teammates anytime soon. Let's brainstorm and let ideas percolate for a bit. I'm still of a mind that we should have at least one information-gathering bloodline, the other slot is up in the air but right now both Elemental Disruption and Chakra Battery look promising. We are the force; what we need are force multipliers.

Chakra Battery would need specific numbers on how much chakra the guy has, though, in order for us to evaluate it. The description notes 3 Chakra from a Capacity of 1; does that mean [Capacity x3], [Capacity +2], or [Capacity x2 +1]? The former would be incredibly good, the middle would be probably not worth it, the latter would be very good.
 
Do we have a better information bloodline idea than the 1 second danger precog? It is useful now, but as we scale, and as combats get faster, it becomes more useful.

If we do go for this, what tactical role do they play?

If we go for elemental disruption as the other, we likely want precog as a weapon specialist. If we go for Chakra battery, we likely want precog as an elemental powerhouse.

Also, I am not a deep naruto expert, but am curious a bit more about the hybrid/exotic elements, and given the bingo book highlights, they are often high potential. Can someone give me a rundown of them, and figure out if any of them would be something we want in team R! ?
 
Is it really justifiable to have both our teammates have bloodlines? I mean, how many bloodline techniques can a village have, that it sends enough of them out to die that a team of 3 genins can be made from bloodline users, after the swamp.

That's a least a 9th of our population.
 
Let's brainstorm and let ideas percolate for a bit.

That's a good point, especially since the builds I created and the discussion of buying techniques left me with a question.

@AugSphere As the rules guru, how tightly defined were you expecting a single technique? Like, is the Clone Technique just how to create a basic clone, or the foundational knowledge of how to generate all clones types? The general idea that I'm trying to get at is how generic/specific should a technique we're looking at creating be?

I'll use the techniques that I was thinking about in my quick character write-ups as examples of the different levels of specificity I thought of.
  • Wind Manipulation, Water Manipulation, Genjutsu (a single technique that covers the breadth of an application, with the Technique Development/Modification skill used to generate the individual named techniques shown in Naruto)
  • Wind-based Distant Striking, Water-based Area Effects, Demonic Illusions (a family of similar techniques with the Technique D/M used to determine how well we're able to adapt what we know for the situation we're in)
  • Wind Release: Wind Slicing, Water Release: Hiding In the Mist, Demonic Illusion: False Gravity (a single named technique with specificly defined results, with Technique D/M used to turn downtime actions into XP that could be used to purchase Techniques)
Which of these comes closest to matching how the rules for techniques?
 
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Is it really justifiable to have both our teammates have bloodlines? I mean, how many bloodline techniques can a village have, that it sends enough of them out to die that a team of 3 genins can be made from bloodline users, after the swamp.

That's a least a 9th of our population.

Eh, i mean, pretty much all of the Rookie 12 had either secret techniques or pseudo bloodlines. I mean, in this quest the Aburame and Inuzuka probably count as Bloodline users.

And the thirty attribute Points they cost are no big loss.
 
Love the quest but I agree with redzonejoe; Don't think we need to go blood-line crazy. I'd be happy if the other two team-mates had a killer useful jutsu. I mean there's gotta be jutsu we could come up with that could help out somewhat less effectively as blood-lines but still pretty cool.

Maybe the GMs might consider letting us do that for discount to points spent? Like 20 instead of 30 used for bloodlines

I'm proposing we could have something like a jutsu form of Synesthesia. There are several forms we could choose from, like spatial sequence, spatio-temporal, or chromesthesia. Would help with info gathering a lot, IMO. And as far as downsides go, I'd say it might take a while for users to handle real-time combat without getting overwhelmed or maybe intentionally weaken the ability to function. Or maybe these downtime period the user needs?

Or maybe an echo-location jutsu?

Who ever has the above could focus on being the long range member of the group.

For chakra battery or elemental disruption, we could have a less effective but less point sucking version and dump the other points into a another minor jutsu with synergy.

Thoughts?
 
Did anyone brought up that the suicide mission might be a cover for a much different political play?

I mean, I read a book once where an entire force of thousands of soldiers was sacrificed, just so that one person in that army would die. This could be much the same. The Mizukage who gave the order had a clear goal in mind when doing this, we don't need to know this, and it might not be a logical goal unless we have all the information, which we clearly don't. It could be that sending the group on a suicide mission was a very sensible choice. Heck, what if the Mizukage counted on us detecting that this is a suicide mission, counted on us defecting? Everyone involved could be getting played.
 
Did anyone brought up that the suicide mission might be a cover for a much different political play?

I mean, I read a book once where an entire force of thousands of soldiers was sacrificed, just so that one person in that army would die. This could be much the same. The Mizukage who gave the order had a clear goal in mind when doing this, we don't need to know this, and it might not be a logical goal unless we have all the information, which we clearly don't. It could be that sending the group on a suicide mission was a very sensible choice. Heck, what if the Mizukage counted on us detecting that this is a suicide mission, counted on us defecting? Everyone involved could be getting played.

Meh. No Point in making complex speculations. I mean, there is no real way to confirm them anyways. Once we go down that path we are going to end up with considering Shikigami to be Orochimaru in disguise or something equally outlandish.

Speaking of Shikigami, he is pretty hardcore. From his age he should be a contemporary of the Sannin, which means that he lived through several wars and the "bad old times" of the bloody mist. That does not bode well for the training methods he is going to use on his genin.
 
Eh, i mean, pretty much all of the Rookie 12 had either secret techniques or pseudo bloodlines. I mean, in this quest the Aburame and Inuzuka probably count as Bloodline users.

And the thirty attribute Points they cost are no big loss.
I don't particularly care about the cost, I just find it hard to justify.

Having a clan specialty or secret technique isn't at all the same as a bloodline limit, which is supposed to be unique. If you have a bloodline limit, then you (and your family?) are literally the only person capable of doing something. Shadow control, mind-transfer, body growth, etc may be rare, but they're replicable. There are other bug clans, for example, and that's way more extreme than the three examples I mentioned.
Love the quest but I agree with redzonejoe; Don't think we need to go blood-line crazy. I'd be happy if the other two team-mates had a killer useful jutsu. I mean there's gotta be jutsu we could come up with that could help out somewhat less effectively as blood-lines but still pretty cool.

Maybe the GMs might consider letting us do that for discount to points spent? Like 20 instead of 30 used for bloodlines

I'm proposing we could have something like a jutsu form of Synesthesia. There are several forms we could choose from, like spatial sequence, spatio-temporal, or chromesthesia. Would help with info gathering a lot, IMO. And as far as downsides go, I'd say it might take a while for users to handle real-time combat without getting overwhelmed or maybe intentionally weaken the ability to function. Or maybe these downtime period the user needs?

Or maybe an echo-location jutsu?

Who ever has the above could focus on being the long range member of the group.

For chakra battery or elemental disruption, we could have a less effective but less point sucking version and dump the other points into a another minor jutsu with synergy.

Thoughts?
Having members with rare or unusual techniques satisfies that flaw. If we have a teammate with some weird ability that they specialize in, like bugs, mind transfer or the ideas you're coming up with, that'd be neat to work with, without having to make bloodlines way more common than they already are.

I'd suggest that, as a prerequisite, they'd have to specialize in attributes and skills relevant to the technique they use. They'd need a high chakra and mental finesse to use shadow manipulation, and they'd suffer in other categories as a result.

That's a neat system because it gives us the chance to learn those techniques later on, if we choose to do so.

Perhaps there could be a 'specialised/family training' perk in place of bloodline, that gives them an effective +2 to [relevant stat] to allow them to use [special techniques], meaning they can still have a relatively decent build, but they'll always favor their clan technique.
 
@eaglejarl @AugSphere @Velorien @Jackercracks I've edited the bloodlines post to include bloodlines I've found that are pending QM approval/discussion. Note that I'm busy during workdays, but should be able to update it each night (at least for this week). Depending on the speed at which people post in this thread, it might be worth making a separate document everyone can post in to propose bloodlines (so your job is easier, you are less likely to miss a proposal, the speed at which our options are accepted is expanded, and we can more optimally make our bloodline choices). I can set that up tonight if people want it (or, anyone can make it, just make a google doc with public privileges).

Everyone else, meta comment, I think one of the challenges we'll come across is going back through the thread to find past arguments. It's probably worth making a "general character knowledge" post or document we can easily reference in the future. I can set something like that up (tonight) if people want it, or anyone else can make it. Right now we've got very noisy data (all the posts in the thread) which is sometimes difficult to find signal in. With some simple tools we can make the data easier to analyze, and thus spend more of our thoughts on the solutions, not searching through old data.
 
That's a good point, especially since the builds I created and the discussion of buying techniques left me with a question.

@AugSphere As the rules guru, how tightly defined were you expecting a single technique? Like, is the Clone Technique just how to create a basic clone, or the foundational knowledge of how to generate all clones types? The general idea that I'm trying to get at is how generic/specific should a technique we're looking at creating be?

I'll use the techniques that I was thinking about in my quick character write-ups as examples of the different levels of specificity I thought of.
  • Wind Manipulation, Water Manipulation, Genjutsu (a single technique that covers the breadth of an application, with the Technique Development/Modification skill used to generate the individual named techniques shown in Naruto)
  • Wind-based Distant Striking, Water-based Area Effects, Demonic Illusions (a family of similar techniques with the Technique D/M used to determine how well we're able to adapt what we know for the situation we're in)
  • Wind Release: Wind Slicing, Water Release: Hiding In the Mist, Demonic Illusion: False Gravity (a single named technique with specificly defined results, with Technique D/M used to turn downtime actions into XP that could be used to purchase Techniques)
Which of these comes closest to matching how the rules for techniques?
It's mostly going to be the third one, but with a touch of second one. For example, shadow clones is specialised enough to get it's own skill and will not influence water clones. If you get your hands on multiple techniques with similar enough effects, then they'll probably be folded into one skill, as long as it makes sense in-universe.

Basic clone is just basic clone, nothing else.
 
It's mostly going to be the third one, but with a touch of second one. For example, shadow clones is specialised enough to get it's own skill and will not influence water clones. If you get your hands on multiple techniques with similar enough effects, then they'll probably be folded into one skill, as long as it makes sense in-universe.

Basic clone is just basic clone, nothing else.

Makes sense.

I'm thinking there'd be inefficiently beefed up or nerfed jutsu used in situations they have no place in, right?
 
I don't particularly care about the cost, I just find it hard to justify.

Having a clan specialty or secret technique isn't at all the same as a bloodline limit, which is supposed to be unique. If you have a bloodline limit, then you (and your family?) are literally the only person capable of doing something. Shadow control, mind-transfer, body growth, etc may be rare, but they're replicable. There are other bug clans, for example, and that's way more extreme than the three examples I mentioned.

Having members with rare or unusual techniques satisfies that flaw. If we have a teammate with some weird ability that they specialize in, like bugs, mind transfer or the ideas you're coming up with, that'd be neat to work with, without having to make bloodlines way more common than they already are.

I'd suggest that, as a prerequisite, they'd have to specialize in attributes and skills relevant to the technique they use. They'd need a high chakra and mental finesse to use shadow manipulation, and they'd suffer in other categories as a result.

That's a neat system because it gives us the chance to learn those techniques later on, if we choose to do so.

Perhaps there could be a 'specialised/family training' perk in place of bloodline, that gives them an effective +2 to [relevant stat] to allow them to use [special techniques], meaning they can still have a relatively decent build, but they'll always favor their clan technique.

The justification is selection bias. Of the more than 13 squads initially involved in this travesty, we are the top 3 genin that were chosen by Shikigami, the strongest surviving Jounin. Moreover, he said we were 'survivors,' so it would make sense to have bloodlines relevant to survival.

Mechanically speaking, the reason we want bloodlines instead of techniques is that characters only get 15 XP worth of Skills. Buying even one unique tech to 4 would cost over half of their Skill allocation. Bloodlines do not draw from that pool which means we can create genin more powerful than their Skills indicate.
 
Did the forum eat this post?

Yes, so deleted. I was saying that (a) your analysis is really well thought out and internally consistent and (b) don't want to stray into spoiler territory so I'm going to shut up about it. Before I do, though, I want to make one comment: pretty much the entire argument rests on one axiom, and I would suggest you re-examine it. I won't say anything more specific, but only "think carefully about your values."

Guys, since we have until Thursday before the next update,

FYI, you don't have that long. The next *post* is on Thursday, but Velorien will need time to digest the posts and write the update. He'll announce how long you have, but you should expect the voting to close Wednesday morning his time At THE VERY LATEST, and it might be sooner.
 
Bloodline -----
Attributes:
Intelligence=1 Wits=2 Resolve=1
Strength=1 Dexterity=2 Stamina=1
Presence=1 Manipulation=1 Composure=1
Capacity=4 Control=1 Regeneration=4
Free affinity 1: ZZZ=2
56/72 points
Skills:

Taijutsu=2 Weapons=2  
Awareness=4 Stealth=3 Knowledge: Deadly Swamp=1
Transformation=1 Clone=1 Replacement=1
Wall walking=1 Water Walking=1 Tactical Awareness=1
14/15 points

Having only effective skill point means that a bloodline that generates some form of offensive or defensive effect is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for our continued survival. Without that we're stuck with a basic skill and basic taijutsu/weapons skills, which against gators is a BAD IDEA. I don't know how tough these guys are but if they were only killed with "killing jutsu" (from the story) I don't like relying on weapons, period.

Jutsu, sadly, take chakra and using jutsu like the Great Fireball will mean we will run out of chakra very quickly. IIRC newly minted Genin do not have the chakra capacity of the Great Fireball, and Kakashi was surprised Sasuke could perform it right out of the Academy. So taking bloodlines that boost our chakra capacity, and relying on low-intensity chakra weapons like chakra flow could be a plan.

Hmm. I know that there's a Chakra Battery bloodline, but nothing else related to really taking/storing chakra.

@eaglejarl: Since I can see you here, can I ask what sort of restrictions would be needed to create a bloodline capable of absorbing chakra from enemies/the environment in a vein similar to this guy or that guy?
 
Before I do, though, I want to make one comment: pretty much the entire argument rests on one axiom, and I would suggest you re-examine it. I won't say anything more specific, but only "think carefully about your values."

If the Mizukage is willing to accept the potential loss of Zabuza, an elite jounin, for our deaths (which, as established earlier, have low marginal benefit for him), it implies he has very little control over Zabuza. That is very interesting. After all, it's not just that Zabuza could die; he could be captured (terrible); he could fuck up and start an international war (catastrophic).

So, my read of these posts, combined with your initial analysis is this:
  • Village has a dedicated hunter squad, headed by the Very Scary Zabuza
  • ...which means that the Village inherently values capturing/killing missing-nin, in and of itself.
  • Thus, even if one particular group of missing-nin tries to make themselves very costly to capture (such as, say, Hidden Village in the Swamp of Killing Everything), the value of capturing/killing them is greater than just their own particular values.
  • We may be (relatively) worthless to our home village, but the other ninjas who were there are not
  • Seeing a large contingent of ninja all go missing-nin and founding their own village would be Very Bad for morale/loyalty/whatever
  • So the value calculation needs to account for not only our own termination (which has some non-zero but likely small value), but also for the value in discouraging all currently-loyal ninja of the village not to defect (which has a probabilistic, unknown, but definitely higher value).
My guess is that our village is very motivated to ensure that we all die, though likely not quite up to provoking outright war. Additionally, your analysis of Zabuza as potentially provoking Leaf by crossing territories seems a bit thin, given that he has a well-known reputation as a dedicated Hunter-nin, and thus is unlikely to be used as a first-strike against foreign agents.

Leaf is unlikely to turn a blind eye to just anyone claiming to be a Hunter-nin entering their territory, but Zabuza may well have developed a reputation for only hunting our own missing-nin and thus is likely to be followed/watched, but not interfered with unless he starts causing outside problems.
 
Yes, so deleted. I was saying that (a) your analysis is really well thought out and internally consistent and (b) don't want to stray into spoiler territory so I'm going to shut up about it. Before I do, though, I want to make one comment: pretty much the entire argument rests on one axiom, and I would suggest you re-examine it. I won't say anything more specific, but only "think carefully about your values."

Do you mean section 4), or the entire thing? I can't think of any axioms besides the most fundamental that would cross-apply to all sections, since they talk about wildly different things. But yeah, I don't expect all background assumptions to be accurate. Do you just mean that we shouldn't expect people to behave according to a rational calculus? My guiding perspective, for lack of a better one at this point, is that competence (and thus reasoning ability, and ability to act on unintuitive conclusions) typically increases the higher up one is as a Shinobi. But of course there are always outliers, and Mizukage/Zabuza might well be outliers. That would be bad for Mist in general, and we would expect Mist to be in worse condition than it seems if it were the case, but for our purposes it makes them more determined opponents.

FYI, you don't have that long. The next *post* is on Thursday, but Velorien will need time to digest the posts and write the update. He'll announce how long you have, but you should expect the voting to close Wednesday morning his time At THE VERY LATEST, and it might be sooner.

Yup, I figure as long as we can get it done by Tuesday we're in the clear time-wise.
 
So, my read of these posts, combined with your initial analysis is this:
  • Village has a dedicated hunter squad, headed by the Very Scary Zabuza
  • ...which means that the Village inherently values capturing/killing missing-nin, in and of itself.
That is one possible conclusion. But hunter squads could also just serve as a revenue source for the village - it is not only Mist that pays bounties, after all! I'm pretty sure most villages have at least some ninja devoted to bounty hunting.

  • Thus, even if one particular group of missing-nin tries to make themselves very costly to capture (such as, say, Hidden Village in the Swamp of Killing Everything), the value of capturing/killing them is greater than just their own particular values.
Yes, this is covered and addressed in section 4, under Benefits. There are standard benefits for killing missing-nun in general, but it's hard for them to apply in our case.

  • We may be (relatively) worthless to our home village, but the other ninjas who were there are not

The benefits section considers our aggregate value as a group, not just the value of us the single genin.

  • Seeing a large contingent of ninja all go missing-nin and founding their own village would be Very Bad for morale/loyalty/whatever
  • So the value calculation needs to account for not only our own termination (which has some non-zero but likely small value), but also for the value in discouraging all currently-loyal ninja of the village not to defect (which has a probabilistic, unknown, but definitely higher value).
This is also covered in the benefits section. There is no incentive for a group of missing-nin, regardless of occupation, to advertise that they are missing-nin, much less Mist nin.

As you point out, there are only disincentives to do so!

Secondly, there is no incentive for Mist to make a big deal about our being traitors. In fact there are several reasons not to, also covered in the big analysis post. The largest is that it does not fit with their cover story and would require contrived explanations to manifest. The second is it makes them look weak/suspicious to admit that such a huge number of dudes turned traitor for no reason, both internally and externally. Their objective was to remove problem Shinobi, not create more headaches for themselves internally and out.

My guess is that our village is very motivated to ensure that we all die, though likely not quite up to provoking outright war. Additionally, your analysis of Zabuza as potentially provoking Leaf by crossing territories seems a bit thin, given that he has a well-known reputation as a dedicated Hunter-nin, and thus is unlikely to be used as a first-strike against foreign agents.

This was addressed in a later post, so you may not have seen it. I'm on my phone so can't link it unfortunately, but it hasn't been too many pages since then. Basically think about the second level implications of what you're proposing. Any nation that took such a lax view to violations of its sovereignty would be extremely vulnerable to alpha strikes by people with "well-known reputations as hunter-nin," and that's not even getting into assigning responsibility for collateral damage. Well, it's a bit more complex than that, see the post for details.

This is supported by eaglejarl's second post, which notes that the Mizukage is likely to implicitly sanction an op with disavowal, not explicitly sanction it. Plausible deniability wouldn't be necessary if the Leaf were that naive.

Also, Zabuza does not just hunt Mist missing-nin, that number of missing nin would indicate problems in Mist far beyond ourselves. He hunts missing-nin in general, taking their bounties as revenue for the village.
 
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I'd like to take a moment to talk about goal-states.

Ignoring for now the steps we need to take to achieve victory, what does victory actually look like?

1) We are still alive.

2) We do not need to fear imminent death, which means...

2a) Zabuzza is no longer a threat to us.

2b) The Swamp of Killing Everything is no longer a threat to us.

2c) Konoha is no longer a threat to us.

2d) We have a supply of necessities for the foreseeable future.

2e) We have not brought any other lethal threats down on ourselves.

3) We are in a position where we can expand Hidden Death Swamp.
 
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