Side note: I'd like to take the term "uplift" out back and have it shot. Even using it imposes an illusionary bi-directionality to societal structure as if there were scale with "higher" at one end and "lower" at the other. If you want to alter the trade-offs and beneficiaries of society that's fine, but there is no "up" to be "lifted" to, only change.

I would consider, for example, the development and proliferation of a new medicine to be an example of uplifting. It improves the quality of life of people who had the disease but doesn't make life worse for anyone else. So it's not just altering trade-offs. In this scenario, having the medicine is an "up" that developing and proliferating it "lifts" to.

Societal structures are a much messier scenario than medical access, and I essentially agree that they in fact do seem to be all about trade-offs, but I don't think that's a good reason to write off the idea of uplifting.
 
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I would consider, for example, the development and proliferation of a new medicine to be an example of uplifting. It improves the quality of life of people who had the disease but doesn't make life worse for anyone else. So it's not just altering trade-offs. In this scenario, having the medicine is an "up" that developing and proliferating it "lifts" to.

Societal structures are a much messier scenario than medical access, and I essentially agree that they in fact do seem to be all about trade-offs, but I don't think that's a good reason to write off the idea of uplifting.

Yeah, but when people invent medicines in the real world nobody goes around talking about how it's an "uplift". If you want Hazou to solve a problem, have him solve a problem, rather than rush to try to solve every problem.

I think some of the confusion about Hazou's idealism has been a lack of specificity. It's all very well to want to make the world a better place, but "make things better" is an open-ended task that has no beginning and no ending. Right now I'd suggest that you could identify two general categories of problems:

1. Things that most people are willing to admit are problems, but that no one has yet solved.
2. Things that most people don't even think are problems, because it's the water in which they have swum since birth.

It's more fertile ground to address Type 1 than Type 2. If you succeed on a lot of Type 1s, then you get enough credibility to start convincing people that Type 2 even exists. Right now I'm not even convinced Hazou really knows what Type 1s are actually are, outside of his own very limited personal experience. If the thread's goal is to make life better for civilians and clanless ninja, I'd suggest that the first thing Hazou should do on getting back to Leaf is to spend a lot of time hanging around with civilians and clanless ninja. Listen to what they say. Understand what they think their own problems are. Then the thread can brainstorm solutions through sealing bullshit or social maneuvers or whatever.

To go back to your example, you don't invent a medicine without first knowing what the disease is.
 
If the thread's goal is to make life better for civilians and clanless ninja, I'd suggest that the first thing Hazou should do on getting back to Leaf is to spend a lot of time hanging around with civilians and clanless ninja. Listen to what they say. Understand what they think their own problems are. Then the thread can brainstorm solutions through sealing bullshit or social maneuvers or whatever.
I like this idea a lot, but we'll need to take care that the clans don't feel too spurned.
 
Yeah, but when people invent medicines in the real world nobody goes around talking about how it's an "uplift".

Some explicitly do. But considering that "uplift" is shorthand for "make things unambiguously less awful", I'm fairly sure that that's the general sentiment behind all of medical research. :p

I think some of the confusion about Hazou's idealism has been a lack of specificity. It's all very well to want to make the world a better place, but "make things better" is an open-ended task that has no beginning and no ending. Right now I'd suggest that you could identify two general categories of problems:

1. Things that most people are willing to admit are problems, but that no one has yet solved.
2. Things that most people don't even think are problems, because it's the water in which they have swum since birth.

It's more fertile ground to address Type 1 than Type 2. If you succeed on a lot of Type 1s, then you get enough credibility to start convincing people that Type 2 even exists. Right now I'm not even convinced Hazou really knows what Type 1s are actually are, outside of his own very limited personal experience. If the thread's goal is to make life better for civilians and clanless ninja, I'd suggest that the first thing Hazou should do on getting back to Leaf is to spend a lot of time hanging around with civilians and clanless ninja. Listen to what they say. Understand what they think their own problems are. Then the thread can brainstorm solutions through sealing bullshit or social maneuvers or whatever.

To go back to your example, you don't invent a medicine without first knowing what the disease is.

That's a good idea.
 
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Side note: I'd like to take the term "uplift" out back and have it shot. Even using it imposes an illusionary bi-directionality to societal structure as if there were scale with "higher" at one end and "lower" at the other. If you want to alter the trade-offs and beneficiaries of society that's fine, but there is no "up" to be "lifted" to, only change.

I personally just use it out of convenience. It does presuppose a rather naive view of social and political change, but I don't have anything better, and it gets the meaning across well enough in this thread. Maybe "humanitarian" instead? I'm open to alternatives.

That said, it's more that balancing Hazou's efforts to increase his personal power with efforts to actual make changes he wants to see in the world is a real dilemma. If Hazou never does anything, then obviously nothing will get done. On the other hand, the less personal power he has the more difficult any given change will be to make. Just as a for-example, a non-chakra-using civilian might seek to influence some area of village policy and succeed in doing so after a dedicated campaign of persuasion, social pressure, and influence that is literally the project of years of work. An S-ranker with deep social ties to the rulers of the village might be able to accomplish the same thing with a week of argument and words in the right ears.

The more Hazou works to increase his personal power, the faster he can pass through changes he wants to see. If he does nothing but increase his personal power, then he's not actually changing anything at all. On the other hand, the more time he devotes to projects of social change, the less speed with which personal power accumulates and not much happens either because he lacked the power to push through any changes. How much time do you spend training your army before embarking on a campaign? It's a classic optimization problem and so fuzzy that there's no mathematical answer.

True enough, but this kind of abstract formulation of this problem isn't very useful for actual decision-making. In practice, we're currently in Mist, engaging in playground politics and exam games, through no choice of ours. My current rule of thumb is that we should advance our humanitarian projects whenever possible, as it's likely that our Goketsu affiliation will keep giving us fires to fight on a regular basis. Rather than having to expend effort to increase our power, we'll have to do so to even maintain it.

I also want to point out that what constitutes "power" in this model is very complicated. For example, while Napoleon is famous primarily for his military exploits, his most enduring legacy comes from the civil law reforms he championed - and I don't think he was making any kind of tradeoff between these two activities, they were largely orthogonal.

Seems to me that's a false dilemma. The fastest way to introduce an industrial innovation isn't to go around talking about how great it is. It's to use it to successfully make a lot of profits, whereupon imitators will appear so that they can get in on the profits as well. That's literally the foundation of and moral justification for capitalism. I assure you, there's probably dozens of people working on creating their own version of the printing press 'right now' in the Elemental Nations (if they haven't built them already), because they see the utility of printed books. Nara Shikaku didn't need to give it away to make that happen, and in fact attempting to give it away might have been a failure because he didn't demonstrate the actual utility of the thing.

In general, yes. However, I imagine it's difficult for civilians to acquire seals in general, and especially a relatively high-level seal such as the Force Wall. So, if a potential competitor offers to buy X seals from us with the intent of setting up a seal-powered sawmill, do we deal? If an enterprising printer offers to purchase blueprints for the Nara printing press, does Shikaku sell them? Or is it treated the same as any other clan secret?

Point is, you act differently depending on whether your goal is to maximize profit from your invention, or proliferate it for the good of the economy at large. In the real world, patent law exists specifically to encourage innovators to proliferate, rather than hoard.
 
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True enough, but this kind of abstract formulation of this problem isn't very useful for actual decision-making. In practice, we're currently in Mist, engaging in playground politics and exam games, through no choice of ours. My current rule of thumb is that we should advance our humanitarian projects whenever possible, as it's likely that our Goketsu affiliation will keep giving us fires to fight on a regular basis. Rather than having to expend effort to increase our power, we'll have to do so to even maintain it.

I also want to point out that what constitutes "power" in this model is very complicated. For example, while Napoleon is famous primarily for his military exploits, his most enduring legacy comes from the civil law reforms he championed - and I don't think he was making any kind of tradeoff between these two activities, they were largely orthogonal.

Also, it needs to be an exciting game where Hazou occasionally gets to PUNCH people and engage in various forms of by-the-seat-of-his-pants wild improvisation or what's the point? I'm not in this to improve the lives of fictional people after all!

So to some extent, the boring stuff can't be too boring or must be doable mainly off-screen in the background. I'm having a lot of fun with the Mist Exams, and I find them a lot more satisfying than I think I would trying to make a force wall sawmill make in Leaf or whatever.

In general, yes. However, I imagine it's difficult for civilians to acquire seals in general, and especially a relatively high-level seal such as the Force Wall. So, if a potential competitor offers to buy X seals from us with the intent of setting up a seal-powered sawmill, do we deal? If an enterprising printer offers to purchase blueprints for the Nara printing press, does Shikaku sell them? Or is it treated the same as any other clan secret?

I have a lot more sympathy for clan secrets than you seem to, because most of the justification for them is that they are the equivalent of military technology that can literally get your family killed if they leak out. Recall the example about how the main reason that Naruto could be successfully kidnapped is that Itachi understood how shadow clones work and that he could use one to transmit a damaging genjutsu back to Naruto. I haven't really seen much indication that clans are hoarding a bunch of non-military secrets.

I don't know if Shaikau would sell blueprints exactly, but I assume he would (and does) allow multiple copies of the printing press to be made rather than only having a single one, located in his clan compound, operated exclusively by loyal clan members. Even knowing that this vastly increases the probability that the printing press design will be copied by someone who gets a good look at it and sells the information. Printing press information leaking doesn't put the lives of his family at stake and is therefore an acceptable risk for more profits from multiple presses.

As for the sawmill, hell no I wouldn't sell someone a bunch of seals to go into competition (though maybe I'd take a share in their business if the market seemed large enough to support a second sawmill). If someone wants to go into competition, they need to partner up with a sealmaster who can make a force wall saw for them... something that's a lot easier to figure out once the concept has been proven out.

Point is, you act differently depending on whether your goal is to maximize profit from your invention, or proliferate it for the good of the economy at large. In the real world, patent law exist specifically to encourage innovators to proliferate, rather than hoard.

The "economy at large' is also a rather abstract formulation. Take it on a case-by-case basis, but I don't think trying to maximize profit on inventions is such a bad thing.
 
Also, it needs to be an exciting game where Hazou occasionally gets to PUNCH people and engage in various forms of by-the-seat-of-his-pants wild improvisation or what's the point? I'm not in this to improve the lives of fictional people after all!

So to some extent, the boring stuff can't be too boring or must be doable mainly off-screen in the background. I'm having a lot of fun with the Mist Exams, and I find them a lot more satisfying than I think I would trying to make a force wall sawmill make in Leaf or whatever.

* eaglejarl and Neji cheer in the background *

More seriously, I enjoy the exams and general "ninja doing ninja things" segments of this quest as well. Still, it's nice for Hazou to have a heroic motivation that goes beyond just being loyal to his village and friends. The QMs have reimagined the Narutoverse as a crapsack world, and I think it's natural to want to improve it. Unfortunately, there is no grand villain that we can punch to make everything better, and so engaging with the political and economic systems of the world is a necessity. I personally also think it can be very fun, so long as we don't spend all of our time cooped up in a sealing lab.

I have a lot more sympathy for clan secrets than you seem to, because most of the justification for them is that they are the equivalent of military technology that can literally get your family killed if they leak out. Recall the example about how the main reason that Naruto could be successfully kidnapped is that Itachi understood how shadow clones work and that he could use one to transmit a damaging genjutsu back to Naruto. I haven't really seen much indication that clans are hoarding a bunch of non-military secrets.

I don't know if Shaikau would sell blueprints exactly, but I assume he would (and does) allow multiple copies of the printing press to be made rather than only having a single one, located in his clan compound, operated exclusively by loyal clan members. Even knowing that this vastly increases the probability that the printing press design will be copied by someone who gets a good look at it and sells the information. Printing press information leaking doesn't put the lives of his family at stake and is therefore an acceptable risk for more profits from multiple presses.

As for the sawmill, hell no I wouldn't sell someone a bunch of seals to go into competition (though maybe I'd take a share in their business if the market seemed large enough to support a second sawmill). If someone wants to go into competition, they need to partner up with a sealmaster who can make a force wall saw for them... something that's a lot easier to figure out once the concept has been proven out.

I have sympathy for keeping bloodline secrets, secret, and for specialized ninjutsu in general. I do think, however, that the line between military and civilian innovations is very blurry, and our own history is full of examples of the former becoming the latter to great benefit of everyone involved. I'd be rather miffed, if, for example, Jiraiya would veto the Force Wall sawmill because he could see potential military applications of movable Force Walls.

In any case, to me, the point of working on the sealing sawmill or any similar idea is to proliferate the innovation as fast as possible. If that's best done by dominating the market and maintaining exclusivity, fine. But if it would go faster if we sold some seals to civilian entrepreneurs from outside our market reach (if only so their own sealmaster can reverse-engineer them), I'd be all for doing that as well. Otherwise, what's the point? To earn more money? Would be nice if we could stop accepting Pangolin blood diamonds, but that's unfortunately not an option.

Maybe you're right, and clan secrets are also subject to the "NINJA MUST PUNCH" rule. Shino's reaction to us inquiring about Aburame goggles would support it. Still, my understanding of this system is that anything at all that provides an advantage of any kind will be hoarded, even if the advantage is very small relative to the utility of releasing it publically.

I don't really want to pick a marginal advantage for our ingroup over a huge gain for all of humanity. I think this decision logic is a major reason the setting looks as it does. We already murdered a ship-full of innocent civilians for a small boon to the search for Naruto, and I'd very much rather not repeat that decision in a different setting.
 
[X] EMPHATICALLY DO NOT Commit suicide via explosives, so as to deny @eaglejarl his punching.
-[X] Carry on with Plan For the Merchant's Life.
 
[X] EMPHATICALLY DO NOT Commit suicide via explosives, so as to deny @eaglejarl his punching.
-[X] Carry on with Plan For the Merchant's Life.

Let's not do this again, pls
Adhoc vote count started by Bombastus on Mar 9, 2018 at 8:05 AM, finished with 329 posts and 10 votes.
 
Voting's already closed, no need to panic :p

e: Well, for that reason, anyway. There's always other reasons to panic.
 
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I mean, if we don't, all we need is one session with Hana to correct those flaws, forever.
 
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