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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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eaglejarl said:
You have valid points and I'll talk about them with the other QMs. Velorien has gone to sleep so that will part of the conversation will have to happen tomorrow, but I think OliWhail is around now.
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Well I think that's where I'll leave this thread. All the major relevant point have been made, and we'll just have to see how it plays out.
 
Velorien said:
I would say she was an outsider to the point where her integration with the team practically comprised her personal story arc. Your own latest plan was all about trying to accomplish this.
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@Velorien @eaglejarl I wrote the plan that lead to this. It sucks. I understand that arguments can be made that we fucked up by revealing clan secrets. I think we were used to being able to use whatever our abilities where in front of the team. Minami was given command by Jiraiya who is our dad know. So I didn't think it was a big deal to let her know our abilities. The fact this is apparently a big deal in universe went right over my head.

This is a knowledge failure where Hazou the character knows more things about the universe than the hivemind and should be able to help us not make stupid decesions

So then we come to last update. We drop the plan that reveals Noburi can drain through mist. We don't see the plan discussion. No one gives us any information that we fucked up. Kagome gives us a ton of money and the update ends. I go about writing a plan that assumes everyone is all cool with each other because in the last update there was no narrative reason to assume we blatantly fucked up. Hazou however was there when he talked about Noburi using mist to drain. Hazou might have seen him being pissed during the mission. Hell they were right there scouting together. The hivemind didn't get to see any of this so no reason to assume we need to desperately fix our social blunder.

So here we have a narrative failure. Hazou clearly has more information than the hivemind. If we had that info we could have planned better

So after we make our plan to bond with Minami, Kagome decides hey I'm going to kill this bitch. Fair enough Kagomes gonna Kagome. He can do that cause he has agency. Then no one on the team suspects him of this even though they know Hazou fucked up and have travelled with Kagome for a year plus. No one got to make rolls or decide anything. I get how this could work if it was Mari who was going to kill Minami. She's got great social control. Kagome does not. Realistically there should be some difference in his action when he goes full out murder mode. We don't get a roll to identify this because he is a party member. So by giving Kagome agency we rob Hazou of his agency to stop him.

This is a mechanics failure.

If any one of these situations were not present I would not have a problem with what happened. As a player base we can and will fuck up sometimes and that should have consequences. What I dislike is that there was literally no way for us as the Hivemind or Hazou as the character to stop Kagome from being a team killing fucktard. That feels like railroading to the highest degree. I really really dislike that.

I do want to say that I still really enjoy MFD and all the hard work you guys put into it. It's just hard to think that we can make fuckups because we literally don't live in the world of MFD so will miss plan things. Then on top of that we don't get to see the rest of the team's reaction to our fuck up. Then we don't even get a mechanical roll to detect that someone is going to commit murder.

If any of these things were fixed we wouldn't have got fucked but all none of them where. You guys could have stepped in at any time and helped the playerbase out. Instead you decide to let us get fucked. Which to me is just bad Gming IMHO. I don't want an antagonistic relationship with you guys. I don't want to have to write 5 page plans filled with contingencies. That might get ignored. We have to work together to make this work, and it feels pretty clearly that in this update you guys didn't really want to make things work for the playerbase in the name of running a simulation.

Once again I'm not trying to throw salt. You guys put a ton of work into this and I give mad props for that. I just wish you would work with us more.
If a GM in real life did that to me I would probably not come back the next week. And I'll be honest I'm seriously considering not coming back
 
[X] Action Plan: Commit Suicide

After reading this for a while, I have kinda gotten to the point of thinking that the QM's decided on a bad premise or system. or both.
I don't know, but a lot of this seems kinda like it needs to end.

Quest seems kinda toxic- At least in some ways. Tho that might just be the length and reading all of this in a week.....but.....meh
 
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faflec said:
No, it just means Kagome expects to be able to get away with it. Which is true, since Jiraiya and Shikaku would do everything in their power to cover it up.

His bias, if anything, is that he doesn't expect people he trusts to betray him. Like Akane.
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That is true. However, what I responded to was, paraphrasing "Kagome killed Minami, ergo he's not smart.".
What he did was in line with his character and I don't think that with additional intelligence/more thinking about this he'd have made a different decision.
 
Just a Public Service Announcement.

IF WE END UP KILLING OURSELVES IN THE NEXT UPDATE

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT DECIDE TO BE

MIST MISSING-NIN FLEEING TO THE LAND OF FIRE

FOR THE SECOND TIME
 
Oneiros43 said:
@Velorien @eaglejarl I wrote the plan that lead to this. It sucks. I understand that arguments can be made that we fucked up by revealing clan secrets. I think we were used to being able to use whatever our abilities where in front of the team. Minami was given command by Jiraiya who is our dad know. So I didn't think it was a big deal to let her know our abilities. The fact this is apparently a big deal in universe went right over my head.

This is a knowledge failure where Hazou the character knows more things about the universe than the hivemind and should be able to help us not make stupid decesions

So then we come to last update. We drop the plan that reveals Noburi can drain through mist. We don't see the plan discussion. No one gives us any information that we fucked up. Kagome gives us a ton of money and the update ends. I go about writing a plan that assumes everyone is all cool with each other because in the last update there was no narrative reason to assume we blatantly fucked up. Hazou however was there when he talked about Noburi using mist to drain. Hazou might have seen him being pissed during the mission. Hell they were right there scouting together. The hivemind didn't get to see any of this so no reason to assume we need to desperately fix our social blunder.

So here we have a narrative failure. Hazou clearly has more information than the hivemind. If we had that info we could have planned better

So after we make our plan to bond with Minami, Kagome decides hey I'm going to kill this bitch. Fair enough Kagomes gonna Kagome. He can do that cause he has agency. Then no one on the team suspects him of this even though they know Hazou fucked up and have travelled with Kagome for a year plus. No one got to make rolls or decide anything. I get how this could work if it was Mari who was going to kill Minami. She's got great social control. Kagome does not. Realistically there should be some difference in his action when he goes full out murder mode. We don't get a roll to identify this because he is a party member. So by giving Kagome agency we rob Hazou of his agency to stop him.

This is a mechanics failure.

If any one of these situations were not present I would not have a problem with what happened. As a player base we can and will fuck up sometimes and that should have consequences. What I dislike is that there was literally no way for us as the Hivemind or Hazou as the character to stop Kagome from being a team killing fucktard. That feels like railroading to the highest degree. I really really dislike that.

I do want to say that I still really enjoy MFD and all the hard work you guys put into it. It's just hard to think that we can make fuckups because we literally don't live in the world of MFD so will miss plan things. Then on top of that we don't get to see the rest of the team's reaction to our fuck up. Then we don't even get a mechanical roll to detect that someone is going to commit murder.

If any of these things were fixed we wouldn't have got fucked but all none of them where. You guys could have stepped in at any time and helped the playerbase out. Instead you decide to let us get fucked. Which to me is just bad Gming IMHO. I don't want an antagonistic relationship with you guys. I don't want to have to write 5 page plans filled with contingencies. That might get ignored. We have to work together to make this work, and it feels pretty clearly that in this update you guys didn't really want to make things work for the playerbase in the name of running a simulation.

Once again I'm not trying to throw salt. You guys put a ton of work into this and I give mad props for that. I just wish you would work with us more.
If a GM in real life did that to me I would probably not come back the next week. And I'll be honest I'm seriously considering not coming back
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This is a valid criticism and I'll discuss it with the others.

As a point of information: We didn't set out to screw you, and we didn't deliberately hold back information. We're all busy folk and it was only Wednesday afternoon (London time) that we realized what had happened and what the realistic consequences would be.
 
[-] Action Plan: Lore Update
[X] Action Plan: Commit Suicide

Couldn't help myself, I just love the severe overdosage of rationality I get everytime I read this quest.
 
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If Hazou kills himself, someone should write an omake about his conversation with Minami in the Pure World.

First line of the omake:
"Sooooo... This is awkward."
 
I'm going to keep this watched for now just in case something major changes, but as things stand I think I'll probably unwatch after the next update. That's not meant as some kind of threat to the GMs to "Change this or else!", I just... don't think I'll enjoy this going forward.

Thanks for the hard work, @Velorien , @eaglejarl , @OliWhail . I've definitely enjoyed this quest up until now, and I wish you all the best! I just don't think I'm this quest's intended audience.
 
The QM did help us out with Zabuza with OOC information. Otherwise, we would be dead because we would think it's all fine and dandy. The most paranoid voices would be muffled.

I am unsure of how to apply this kind of precedent to our situation, but it is clear that we fucked up without knowing it. That is rational. IRL, we don't get to undo mistakes.

However, others did argue that this is also a game, not just rational fiction. So some elements of game design apply, somehow.
 
But yeah, there are clear problems emerging from the twice a week schedule, as the GMs are having trouble keeping up with maintaining background lore, coming up with combat mechanics, running through all the plans to execute them, coming up with the consequences, and then signalling "hey this might be a bad idea guys". With that in mind:

[X] Poll: Move MfD to a weekly update to take some strain off the GMs
 
eaglejarl said:
This is a valid criticism and I'll discuss it with the others.

As a point of information: We didn't set out to screw you, and we didn't deliberately hold back information. We're all busy folk and it was only Wednesday afternoon (London time) that we realized what had happened and what the realistic consequences would be.
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Yeah I get that. There's totally a fairly strong argument that Hazō fucked up by talking about Noburi's abilities. We don't live in There so those mistakes will happen.

I also get that you where out of all the spoons with your update. It sounds like a really tough time for you and I hope things get better. It happens.

I just wish there was a mechanical check in place. Because Kei and Noburi both knew that Hazō fucked up. They could have modeled kagome as a team killing fucktard and stopped him.
I also would once again say that I have no problem with Kagome killing Minami. It's the fact that no one on the team had agency to stop him that upsets me.
 
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