Apparently there's a good chance he's been raising Naruto in this AU, so I'd have to contest that.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Apparently there's a good chance he's been raising Naruto in this AU, so I'd have to contest that.
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Reaction time, and oh, what a wild ride it was.
And now I want to beat the shit out of MfD!Naruto just to prove we can. We fought tooth and nail to get where we are today and no snot-nosed blond brat with more silver spoons stuffed in his mouth than he has hairs on his head is going to make us play second fiddle.
Is there a non-typo reason why there are two "accidentally"'s here? If it's for emphasis, I'd assume at least one of them should be in quotations marks.
WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
DO YOU FEEL THAT BOYS? THAT'S THE WIND AT OUR BACKS! SET FULL SAIL ON THE SS INAZOU!
I'm imagining Jiraiya using this excuse himself, daring other ninja to ask what clan he is a part of and then staring them down like the provocateur that he is.
I chuckled a bit.
JASHIN NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
The emotions, they are so painful, but I keep having fun and coming back anyway. TIL I'm a MfD!masochist.
Alright, enough anger/despair, moving onto bargaining. Jiraiya did not say we could never date her, just that it will be complicated. WE CAN STILL DO THIS. Gotta keep the blonde mind-reading social-fu wizard dream alive.
Makes cold logical sense to keep the brainiest of the bloodlines contained in one clan to prevent hostile rivalries from forming. Now we have even more reason to look into the specifics of adoption and marriages of clans. Keiko may be required to produce some Nara kids as part of her adoption or marriage agreement, or she might just be kept away in a nice safe logistics corner indefinitely. We don't know and that kills our bargaining position before we even have one.
The Nara will likely use their position as the deciding vote for their clan-triumvirate alliance to force our clan's hand to hand over Keiko. On the bright side, if there is anyone who would be accepting of a lesbian ninja (or at least preparing contingencies for such an occasion (unless Leaf, being Medieval in tech level and possibly culture (to a degree) might believe in conversion "therapy", (unless mind techniques actually can turn you straight?) ugh)), it would be the Nara.
This is going to be a fun conversation. Who will have more contingencies? The players or the Nara's as simulated by the QM's?
I'm looking forward to it.
Huh, well I guess we are having this discussion waaaaaaaay sooner than I anticipated.
And here is the obvious retort... without any prompting from us.
And people say I want to engage in undefined behavior?
Pretty sure this is such textbook behavior; Hazou doing something of his own volition without waiting for our input. It's an interesting development that we will have to take into account from now on, but it certainly saves us some time. Hopefully we will never be in such a situation where the players hate whatever action Hazou takes and they know they can't blame themselves for it.
What I'm saying is, be very careful; you're playing with fire and the players (and by extension, the quest) will get burned if you do this too often. Consider it like you would a nuclear option: to be used to break the worst deadlocks. Maybe I'm just being too paranoid after the Kabuto debacle, but whole scenes coming out of a single short sentence makes me nervous.
Don't get me wrong; I enjoyed the scene and I couldn't really see us responding in any other reasonable way. It's just the principle of the matter and how it could set precedent for later on in the quest. This is too much fun to be even potentially ruined by a bunch of people whining about some action we didn't explicitly vote for.
We definitely need to be more specific and/or precise on our end so this shouldn't ever become a problem in the future. Hopefully I'm just a crazy person, this is a non-issue, and we can move on with our lives.
Now on a lighter note...
THANK JASHIN FOR BOOKS.
All is... acceptable in the world.
It's time to get our bookworm on and learn everything about Leaf traditions, legalese, cultures, and society that we can. Keiko's freedom and our clan's future depends on it.
And now I want to beat the shit out of MfD!Naruto just to prove we can. We fought tooth and nail to get where we are today and no snot-nosed blond brat with more silver spoons stuffed in his mouth than he has hairs on his head is going to make us play second fiddle.
Is there a non-typo reason why there are two "accidentally"'s here? If it's for emphasis, I'd assume at least one of them should be in quotations marks.
WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
DO YOU FEEL THAT BOYS? THAT'S THE WIND AT OUR BACKS! SET FULL SAIL ON THE SS INAZOU!
I'm imagining Jiraiya using this excuse himself, daring other ninja to ask what clan he is a part of and then staring them down like the provocateur that he is.
I chuckled a bit.
JASHIN NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
The emotions, they are so painful, but I keep having fun and coming back anyway. TIL I'm a MfD!masochist.
Alright, enough anger/despair, moving onto bargaining. Jiraiya did not say we could never date her, just that it will be complicated. WE CAN STILL DO THIS. Gotta keep the blonde mind-reading social-fu wizard dream alive.
Makes cold logical sense to keep the brainiest of the bloodlines contained in one clan to prevent hostile rivalries from forming. Now we have even more reason to look into the specifics of adoption and marriages of clans. Keiko may be required to produce some Nara kids as part of her adoption or marriage agreement, or she might just be kept away in a nice safe logistics corner indefinitely. We don't know and that kills our bargaining position before we even have one.
The Nara will likely use their position as the deciding vote for their clan-triumvirate alliance to force our clan's hand to hand over Keiko. On the bright side, if there is anyone who would be accepting of a lesbian ninja (or at least preparing contingencies for such an occasion (unless Leaf, being Medieval in tech level and possibly culture (to a degree) might believe in conversion "therapy", (unless mind techniques actually can turn you straight?) ugh)), it would be the Nara.
This is going to be a fun conversation. Who will have more contingencies? The players or the Nara's as simulated by the QM's?
I'm looking forward to it.
Huh, well I guess we are having this discussion waaaaaaaay sooner than I anticipated.
And here is the obvious retort... without any prompting from us.
And people say I want to engage in undefined behavior?
Pretty sure this is such textbook behavior; Hazou doing something of his own volition without waiting for our input. It's an interesting development that we will have to take into account from now on, but it certainly saves us some time. Hopefully we will never be in such a situation where the players hate whatever action Hazou takes and they know they can't blame themselves for it.What I'm saying is, be very careful; you're playing with fire and the players (and by extension, the quest) will get burned if you do this too often. Consider it like you would a nuclear option: to be used to break the worst deadlocks. Maybe I'm just being too paranoid after the Kabuto debacle, but whole scenes coming out of a single short sentence makes me nervous.
Don't get me wrong; I enjoyed the scene and I couldn't really see us responding in any other reasonable way. It's just the principle of the matter and how it could set precedent for later on in the quest. This is too much fun to be even potentially ruined by a bunch of people whining about some action we didn't explicitly vote for.
We definitely need to be more specific and/or precise on our end so this shouldn't ever become a problem in the future. Hopefully I'm just a crazy person, this is a non-issue, and we can move on with our lives.
Now on a lighter note...
THANK JASHIN FOR BOOKS.
All is... acceptable in the world.
It's time to get our bookworm on and learn everything about Leaf traditions, legalese, cultures, and society that we can. Keiko's freedom and our clan's future depends on it.
I would have said that was likely going in, but it would be pretty odd that Jiraiya wouldn't have brought up, "Oh and you're going to have a sibling," in the last update or two.
And anyway, an extended family is still better as a parent than one guy who is on he road all the time.
siflux
Inveterate Lurker
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It's a good thing you included this stipulation, because most or all of the ensuing list consists of stuff that will almost definitely not end the world.
and Mari (wihich I realise carries it's own complications).
And her new auntie Hana, soon enough.
Rihaku
The Internet
Nara intelligence gives them a frankly ludicrous amount of optimization power. I don't think it's impossible for them to make life very hard for Jiraiya without ever overstepping their legal bounds. Jiraiya will be able to complain, but Sarutobi is as beholden to pragmatism as any Kage must be.
Far better to have them as an ally, though I suspect Shikaku is just doing a typical 'big ask' with the adoption or marriage ultimatum. Given Nara cunning it's not a given that Jiraiya would automatically see through that tactic, so the party should definitely offer a lesser compromise first, especially if Keiko is not particularly willing.
If Jiraiya himself is completely convinced that Shikaku is serious and also completely confident in his ability to read Shikaku's ploys, that's a different story.
I think the thread should focus on two things:
1) Designing an Iron Nerve-mediated social booster skill. We know it's possible and that's 90% of the way towards creation. Ideally something that leverages Hazou's high INT so we don't become too Multiple Attribute Dependent. Iron Nerve reduces the problem of body language and tonality to a matter of template creation and recall, which seems to fit Intelligence well. Moreover, strong body language and vocal tone are universally useful in social interactions. Even if people understand that you have Bloodline-mediated superhuman poise, it will still leave an impression on them, especially on the subconscious level.
Powerful ninja spend their XP efficiently.
2) Figuring out XP expenditure. I think Diplomacy will be significantly more useful than Deception in most situations going forward, but there's a strong argument to be made for maxing Seals instead. Deception has synergy with Roki but under the new system Hazou has invested only a minute fraction of his XP into Roki.
"Socially presentable sealing prodigy" is an appealing prospect, but "Socially incompetent sealing super-genius" is both materially more powerful and a common enough stereotype to be accepted as genuine. No one ever takes Kagome's outbursts seriously like they do Hazou's, who is currently in the unfortunate valley between those local maxima.
Far better to have them as an ally, though I suspect Shikaku is just doing a typical 'big ask' with the adoption or marriage ultimatum. Given Nara cunning it's not a given that Jiraiya would automatically see through that tactic, so the party should definitely offer a lesser compromise first, especially if Keiko is not particularly willing.
If Jiraiya himself is completely convinced that Shikaku is serious and also completely confident in his ability to read Shikaku's ploys, that's a different story.
I think the thread should focus on two things:
1) Designing an Iron Nerve-mediated social booster skill. We know it's possible and that's 90% of the way towards creation. Ideally something that leverages Hazou's high INT so we don't become too Multiple Attribute Dependent. Iron Nerve reduces the problem of body language and tonality to a matter of template creation and recall, which seems to fit Intelligence well. Moreover, strong body language and vocal tone are universally useful in social interactions. Even if people understand that you have Bloodline-mediated superhuman poise, it will still leave an impression on them, especially on the subconscious level.
Powerful ninja spend their XP efficiently.
2) Figuring out XP expenditure. I think Diplomacy will be significantly more useful than Deception in most situations going forward, but there's a strong argument to be made for maxing Seals instead. Deception has synergy with Roki but under the new system Hazou has invested only a minute fraction of his XP into Roki.
"Socially presentable sealing prodigy" is an appealing prospect, but "Socially incompetent sealing super-genius" is both materially more powerful and a common enough stereotype to be accepted as genuine. No one ever takes Kagome's outbursts seriously like they do Hazou's, who is currently in the unfortunate valley between those local maxima.
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Freudian slip, I'm sure. Fixed, thanks.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
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Okay, primary things:
1: Hazou can talk books with Shikamaru. This will be fun, and also seriously impress Shikamaru who previously had no one accept his book recommendations
2: Maybe Kei could hang out with Ino? Go clothes shopping or something? I don't know that it would be wise to send Hazou or Noburi with her for overprotective-father reasons
No idea what to do on the count of the Hyuuga. I think we need more information on them from Jiraiya to make any plans with regards to them.
1: Hazou can talk books with Shikamaru. This will be fun, and also seriously impress Shikamaru who previously had no one accept his book recommendations
2: Maybe Kei could hang out with Ino? Go clothes shopping or something? I don't know that it would be wise to send Hazou or Noburi with her for overprotective-father reasons
No idea what to do on the count of the Hyuuga. I think we need more information on them from Jiraiya to make any plans with regards to them.
I think we should make the following counter-offer:
- Keiko will remain in the J-clan.
- Keiko will share the coin secrets and an arbitrary amount of other intelligence with Shikaku.
- Keiko will agree to cooperate on Frozen-Skein consultation to the Nara clan, free of charge.
- The J-clan will give the Nara priority and large discounts on seal research commissions for the next two years (including all three of Jiraiya, Kagome, and Hazou).
@MadScientist
I feel you are making a lot of assumptions/relying on kneejerk reaction with your arguments.
To whit:
1. Relative power of Clans to Hokage
I don't think we know enough about Leaf politics to be able to accurately state that the three clans are effectively powerless to do anything more than annoy us. At the very least, snubbing the Nara would cost Jiyahara political capitol. Please consider what was said on that matter when we were being kicked out last time.
2. Keiko joining the Nara being a bad thing for her/us:
I don't feel you've provided compelling evidence for this.
The strongest argument for it being bad is that Keiko could be put in a position where she will be forced to betray the Mori.
I don't think it unreasonable to suspect that they want her to help cracking Mori codes, and that she would be opposed to doing so. However, all we have at this point is supposition.
EDIT: the 'worth the coins' part seems to indicate that the Nara see the coins as something they would be giving up in exchange for Keiko, not something that Keiko would be adding value to.
3. Keiko being opposed to joining the Nara:
All we've seen so far from Keiko has been "I have to consider this", and dropping into Frozen Skein.
Another thing to consider is that, although the framing was humorous, Keiko has expressed interest in marrying into the Nara (if only to get access to their library).
EDIT: And please consider another marriage that was suggested humorously, yet turned out to be a good idea.
I feel you are making a lot of assumptions/relying on kneejerk reaction with your arguments.
To whit:
1. Relative power of Clans to Hokage
I don't think we know enough about Leaf politics to be able to accurately state that the three clans are effectively powerless to do anything more than annoy us. At the very least, snubbing the Nara would cost Jiyahara political capitol. Please consider what was said on that matter when we were being kicked out last time.
2. Keiko joining the Nara being a bad thing for her/us:
I don't feel you've provided compelling evidence for this.
The strongest argument for it being bad is that Keiko could be put in a position where she will be forced to betray the Mori.
I don't think it unreasonable to suspect that they want her to help cracking Mori codes, and that she would be opposed to doing so. However, all we have at this point is supposition.
EDIT: the 'worth the coins' part seems to indicate that the Nara see the coins as something they would be giving up in exchange for Keiko, not something that Keiko would be adding value to.
3. Keiko being opposed to joining the Nara:
All we've seen so far from Keiko has been "I have to consider this", and dropping into Frozen Skein.
Another thing to consider is that, although the framing was humorous, Keiko has expressed interest in marrying into the Nara (if only to get access to their library).
EDIT: And please consider another marriage that was suggested humorously, yet turned out to be a good idea.
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Have we ever met MfD!Shikaku in game yet? At best we have a general idea of what his character is based on his actions as told by Jiraiya, but we do not know for certain what his motivations are as of this moment.
For all we know, MfD!Shikaku ruthlessly wants to preserve his clan's niche in Leaf as their premier smart-people clan. Keiko threatens this just by existing. MfD!Shikaku may very well want to make sure that Keiko never has children so the safety of his clan is secure.
Before we decide on any course of action we should ask Jiraiya for a briefing on MfD!Shikaku's personality, history, personal and clan political leanings. He is currently too unknown for us to make an informed decision, but if we can identify any patterns in his behavior we can learn how he thinks so we can plan accordingly.
Let's use Keiko's ability to profile MfD!Shikaku (and the other clan heads when pertinent) and go from there.
Know thy
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It shouldn't be ignored that if Keiko joins the Nara they additionally gain a Summoner to an allied 'Clan', that's pretty good even without the bloodline and possible secret codes. If Keiko decides that she joins/marry into the Nara they need to give her a lot of things and support.
We've been told flat out that Hiruzen can override them.
From Kei's perspective: She goes from "surrounded by her close friends" to "surrounded by people who wanted her as a poltical tool" which can't be a step up.
From our perspective: Taking Kei out of the J-clan significantly weakens the clan's starting power due to loss of both a bloodline and a summon scroll, and given that J-clan lacks numbers, we need to make up for it in power-density.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
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I sure hope not, otherwise we might have problems.
On another note, fuckin' eeeeee. Jiraiya approves of civilian seals!!!
So we give them everything, and they don't even have to adopt Keiko in return? That seems like a lousy deal!
See, it wouldn't surprise me if there's a fundamental difference in perspectives here. You're thinking that the Nara adopting Keiko is their payoff, the thing that they are getting. I think they think of it as a value-neutral thing or even a deal that is slightly weighted towards giving us something. From their point of view, being invited into the Nara clan is an incredible honor.
I want to make that point very clear for when we approach negotiations. Going in with the attitude them them adopting Keiko is benefit for them and a sacrifice to her will likely come across as incredibly insulting. They're offering to adopt a missing-nin into one of the most powerful clans in the village. Even if you vote to refuse the offer, be aware of what an incredible honor it is and speak/act accordingly.
There is a difference between 'can override them' and 'can override them cheaply*'.
*in terms of political capital.
This assumes that they will sequester her away from us. This is an unknown.
EDIT:
That is a weak rebuttal. There is a cost to turning a missing-nin into a clan nin, and that isn't something that can be discounted.
Unless you assume that every power-player in Leaf will be willing to simply forget her origins. I don't think that is the case.
The first thing we need to do is ask Jiraiya what his opinion of the deal is. We can share some of our worries, see what he thinks of them.
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The fact that Jiraiya had to make that push-back shows you all you need to know about how people will really feel about it.
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No. I went with "if there is time" and the fact that the update was already late.
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This all depends on the position they offer her. Adoption by one of the far out branch members would be a way to gain possession of her while still not spending too much potential political capital. If they want to marry her off to Shikamaru then it's a huge honor since he is the clan heir and could be married off to any number of potential political brides.
Noburi was once almost married off to one of the most prominent clans in Mountain and it was most definitely not an honor. There are bound to be a few less desirables in the Nara clan Keiko could be offloaded on. The details of any offer will be extremely important.
Come to think of it: If there are Watchers, the Akatsuki would be squashed like a bug if they tried to implement Tobi's crazy moon eye plan.
Still doesn't mean they aren't a threat, given that the Watcher don't bother improving the world to prevent slow civilizational collapse.
Still doesn't mean they aren't a threat, given that the Watcher don't bother improving the world to prevent slow civilizational collapse.
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@Velorien @eaglejarl @OliWhail
Are the Mori still a product of a Mist eugenics program as a way to even the odds against Leaf's Nara or was that ret-con'd? Whether or not that is still the case could have huge implications in our upcoming negotiations. I'd assume Keiko would know about something like that when it comes to her family even if she was only a genin when she was back in Mist.
Are the Mori still a product of a Mist eugenics program as a way to even the odds against Leaf's Nara or was that ret-con'd? Whether or not that is still the case could have huge implications in our upcoming negotiations. I'd assume Keiko would know about something like that when it comes to her family even if she was only a genin when she was back in Mist.
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You're assuming the Watchers aren't MfD!Akatsuki.
CONSTANT.
VIGILANCE.