Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Emstar]

So it's my understanding that the process is somewhat lossy (like maybe 33%-50% total memory transfer) in that sense it is kind of like murder, in the sense that losing time is like dying.

Which it is not IMO, since while losing time feels the same as dying internally, externally nobody gets that hurt, since you're still around to them. It's not pleasant, but nothing compared to dying.

All around, I do think Snow is making an error in reasoning, but an understandable one.

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Even if every Hazou Clone was murdered (no memories back at all) upon the jutsu termination, I don't think my perspective on what his perspective would be would change much: It's not about the instance, its about the Hazou.

Is that weird and non-standard? Perhaps, but Hazou is a weird and non-standard kid. This is how he acts and that's how we play it regardless (How many times do we vote to have the kid do something dangerous and suicidal? How many times does he sit down and robotically churn through a bunch of seals on repeat?).

*shrugs*

The kid goes to bed at night lol.

 

[Velorien]

How do you define people?

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I evade this thorny question by asserting that an identical copy of a person is also a person (setting aside whether or not it is the same person). Do you propose that the specific differences between human beings and shadow clones are sufficient for shadow clones to lack the personhood they would otherwise have?

 

[RandomOTP]

I don't think we have to worry about Snowflake getting upset with Hazou over his use of SC.

Hazou-the-character is ready to sacrifice himself to save his family. He was ready to do it for Kei when Orochimaru had his eyes on her, he was ready to do it every time he approached the Great Seal, and he was ready to do it every time Hidan surprised Leaf with a random encounter.

Hazou's sacrificial willingness means that his clones are created with this, too. And thus, even if you look at shadow clone use as large scale murder, it's a murder that Hazou-the-character and Hazou-Clones both agree to.

Hazou-the-character would die for his family if it meant they received a marginal increase in their chances of survival, and thus so do his clones.

Edit: @MMKII just phrased it far more succinctly than I did. Whoops, ninja'd.

 

[Earwing]

I'm not too worried about this part personally - sealing research doesn't actually need chakra for the SCs and Itachi doesn't know Hazou knows Primordial Sealing, or that it needs a lot of chakra to perform. He has no real reason to expect the researching part to need Noburi, I think his first thought would more likely be about SC training if he thinks about it at all. More likely IMO he just views Noburi as yet more leverage on Hazou like the others

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I think the point was not that Itachi thinks Hazō needs Noburi to do research efficiently, but rather, that he would not take non-rift-related sealing research notes as evidence that Hazō has not researched the rift, because he knows that Hazō could have been doing both at the same time. Indeed, Kei mentioned it as an answer to:

"We can set up a dead drop for Noburi, so if Akatsuki are opening our mail, they'll think we're on the move like we're supposed to be and don't have time to chat. I'm thinking some innocent, non-runic sealing notes for the main body. That's plausible if we're afraid of dying en route and all that value being lost, and hopefully, if Itachi looks at it, he'll recognise that it doesn't look like rift research."

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I know we both read that MoL fanfic. How much do you want to bet that "normal" SCs wouldn't diverge if they had a long enough run?

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Which MoL fanfic? Do you recommend it? Or are you talking about MoL itself?

With this in mind, could an ordinary shadow clone become a Snowlake lite, and would it be meaningful to say that it died when it was dispelled?

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To me, the most relevant point is not how different Snowflake is while she exists, but rather the fact that Kei can't fully reintegrate her. Personally, I think I would consider it a kind of soft death if the memories were not reintegrated at all but the duration was short (as explored in Team Anko), a sleep of very variable time in Snowflake's case, and not a death at all if the memories were fully reintegrated. But that is up to each Shadow Clone to decide, and different people's Shadow Clones are going to have wildly different opinions on the topic.

 

[Sir Stompy]

I don't think we have to worry about Snowflake getting upset with Hazou over his use of SC.

Hazou-the-character is ready to sacrifice himself to save his family. He was ready to do it for Kei when Orochimaru had his eyes on her, he was ready to do it every time he approached the Great Seal, and he was ready to do it every time Hidan surprised Leaf with a random encounter.

Hazou's sacrificial willingness means that his clones are created with this, too. And thus, even if you look at shadow clone use as large scale murder, it's a murder that Hazou-the-character and Hazou-Clones both agree to.

Hazou-the-character would die for his family if it meant they received a marginal increase in their chances of survival, and thus so do his clones.

Edit: @MMKII just phrased it far more succinctly than I did. Whoops, ninja'd.

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Maybe we should tell Snow this...

 

[_The_Bomb]

Do you propose that the specific differences between human beings and shadow clones are sufficient for shadow clones to lack the personhood they would otherwise have?

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Yes. Due to their fundamental lack of autonomy, inherent shortness of existence, and eventual integration of their consciousness/memories back into the original I view them as an extension of their creator instead of a distinct person.

 

[Velorien]

Yes. Due to their fundamental lack of autonomy, inherent shortness of existence, and eventual integration of their consciousness/memories back into the original I view them as an extension of their creator instead of a distinct person.

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Then I think you and Snowflake disagree.

Edit: It's possible that you haven't picked up on this since it's rarely referenced, but Snowflake also suffers from a fundamental lack of autonomy. She reacts exactly like any other shadow clone when Kei orders her to do something, and she and Kei have invested a lot of time in finding ways to circumvent this "feature".

 

[Heleor]

I evade this thorny question by asserting that an identical copy of a person is also a person (setting aside whether or not it is the same person). Do you propose that the specific differences between human beings and shadow clones are sufficient for shadow clones to lack the personhood they would otherwise have?

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I avoid *this* thorny question by citing MtG comprehensive rules. Shadow clones are Creatures, but not Creature Cards.

 

[strange_person]

I avoid *this* thorny question by citing MtG comprehensive rules. Shadow clones are Creatures, but not Creature Cards.

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Would that make Snowflake's inclusion in the group a form of tokenism?

 

[Sir Stompy]

Edit: It's possible that you haven't picked up on this since it's rarely referenced, but Snowflake also suffers from a fundamental lack of autonomy. She reacts exactly like any other shadow clone when Kei orders her to do something, and she and Kei have invested a lot of time in finding ways to circumvent this "feature"

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It's not clear to me how pervasive this it is. Does it take a direct order, or is casting SC with a half-formed thought enough to invoke the controls?

Is Snow able to be an autonomous person without orders from Kei to be autonomous person?

 

[Halil]

Is Snow able to be an autonomous person without orders from Kei to be autonomous person?

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Kei's 'Sermon Through the Window' to the Shadow Council:

 

[Sir Stompy]

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Did Hazou do any research this update?

The plan called for the following:

Work on Capacitor and then (time permitting) Icarus while waiting for the exfil to complete.

• Use DoB, no prep, reroll for safety.
• Read Sealing Notes with SCs on rest days.

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So at most Hazou made one roll on Capacitor with no prep and DoB.

If he didn't do any research I'll have him read notes on Prime instead.

That said:

Hazou SC XP: 4*1.9 = 7.6 SC XP
Kei SC XP: 4*2.1 = 8.4 SC XP

 

[CitizenTen]

"He cannot be blamed," Kei interjected.

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On the other hand I think he can and should be! Quite loudly in fact! Having Naruto's plan hinged on that, meant it wasn't a very good plan.

"This part of the plan hinged on forcing him to face his personal nemesis, the man who stripped him of his power and doubtless tortured him in unimaginable ways in the process of preparing him for a uniquely agonising death that would use him as a tool for his loved ones' doom. A man, furthermore, with extensive experience practising psychic domination of other S-rankers with the aid of a Bloodline Limit ideally suited to the task. Your worst encounters with Orochimaru would be a luxurious soak in the hot springs by comparison. That the Eighth was able to stand firm and follow the plan at all is an achievement to be respected rather than a failure to excel."

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Given above, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume Itachi's able to intimidate Naruto enough to find up what Naruto's been up to.
And Oro's researching dimensionalism.


So what's the consensus/what are we planning/assuming happens with regards to Oro and Naruto after the dust settles?

And any thoughts about sending a letter to the snakes through the 7th path before we cut off all contact, to tell them what's up if they bail on Leaf?

 

[Shrooms]

I think the point was not that Itachi thinks Hazō needs Noburi to do research efficiently, but rather, that he would not take non-rift-related sealing research notes as evidence that Hazō has not researched the rift, because he knows that Hazō could have been doing both at the same time. Indeed, Kei mentioned it as an answer to:

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Noburi still plays no part in this. Hazou does not need Noburi to do this. He can summon and research with 6 clones + prime without refills if he's just doing paper sealing, and Itachi as a frequent SC user would know that's already frankly ridiculous Resolve levels no reasonable chuunin would buy (turns out Hazou is insane).

I think his actual Resolve limit is 4, nearly 5 researching clones though. He has approx 58 SC hours to work with.

 

[Sir Stompy]

Noburi still plays no part in this. Hazou does not need Noburi to do this. He can summon and research with 6 clones + prime without refills if he's just doing paper sealing, and Itachi as a frequent SC user would know that's already frankly ridiculous Resolve levels no reasonable chuunin would buy (turns out Hazou is insane).

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4 Clones + Prime, but your point is well taken

 

[Shrooms]

4 Clones + Prime, but your point is well taken

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Yeah I edited that in, basically he's Resolve limited rather than chakra limited

 

[Sir Stompy]

2 more levels of Resolve and we can do 5 Clones researching at once

 

[Rihaku]

2) Snowflake's memories are preserved independently, meaing she has continuity of identity rather than each Snowflake being a fresh divergent Kei clone

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Interesting. Why is this the case? If it's related to the lack of a Thinker Bloodline (some kind of safety feature in the technique itself, to minimize reintegration shock for Nara users?), does that mean every Thinker clan has cognitively independent Shadow Clones?

 

[Halil]

On the other hand I think he can and should be! Quite loudly in fact! Having Naruto's plan hinged on that, meant it wasn't a very good plan.

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Yes, he should. Even if we don't blame him at all for being unable to stand up to Itachi (which is debatable especially within the distinctly non-modern ninja culture, but let's put it aside), the glaring problem is that he should know what Itachi means for him. Thus him pushing for a plan where he will have to deal with Itachi in such a context makes this entirely his fault. Other users have already written ways in which Naruto could have ameliorated the issue, even examples where giving up different "truths"[1] (insofar as "Hazo is currently doing research" was "the truth" this time) to Itachi could have resulted in far lower alarm levels all around.

Personally, it has just been a while since Naruto impressed me for what his role should be (not on a meta level, wherein he is largely fine, but narratively). When I think back on his actions, the first and foremost thing I think of is his weird seesawing and stonewalling in the chapters where this whole outing was first planned.

It is a shame that someone raised from birth to be the Ultra Hokage by arguably the best person for the job is such an idiot at absolute crisis points. None of it is unbelievable, but still frustrating. At this point, I am more than halfway considering whether his performance is meta commentary on, or simply natural consequences of, his (incredible) PTSD - at least with respect to "his" competence in most other media. I like Naruto, but I don't want to ever have to rely on him now.

Hey, at least we finally betrayed him too. Technically.

[1]: With different setups, obviously. The aforementioned summon scroll hunting comes to mind, and there are other location-specific goals we would mind Akatsuki knowing far less than "Hazo is almost certainly doing the foremost thing we really don't want him to do."

Edit: Also, how old is Naruto, effectively? Isn't he essentially living every day many times over due to the memory transfer, or am I mixing up my shadow clones?

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

[X] Interlude: The Rest of the Gouketsu Go Missing Again

"There is no 'win' here," Kei said quietly. "Even with the most effective countermeasures, if Akatsuki decide to abduct the people in our care and torture them for information, or on general principles, we will be powerless to stop them. This is… damage mitigation. Until we can reverse the course of the world, until our momentum overpowers human nature itself, everything we ever do will only be damage mitigation."

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This quote does a very good job at summing up the general tone and atmosphere that this quest has had throughout its lifespan. We fight uphill battles, one after another, and insofar as we can say to have won it's often more accurate to say that we found a way not to lose, at least not yet, and we've chained that together with unwavering tenacity all the way to where we are now.

And yet, we are here, we haven't lost. We've mitigated what damage we could, claimed whatever wins were within our reach, and we're building up momentum every time we defy the odds and come out intact. We used to just be some young ninja with a cool idea, then we became one of the most important ninja in Leaf, and now we're ninja Oppenheimer holding in our hands the means to change the world. Our trajectory is upwards, no matter how much it always feels like we're hiding behind cover lest the many and varied slavering jaws of the world consume us.

So let's do it, let's keep minimizing damage, taking what wins we can and surviving the ones we can't. Making compromises and sacrifices to stay in the game, doubling down because that's better than folding. We have a lot of road left to go, but our trajectory is upwards and eventually we'll meet a challenge we can just stare in the face and make it blink.

 

[_The_Bomb]

Then I think you and Snowflake disagree.

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To be clear, I consider Snowflake specifically to be a distinct person because of her unique circumstances. It just doesn't extend to other shadow clones who don't have radically divergent thought processes and, most importantly, who neither consider themselves distinct nor are considered distinct by their creator.

That last part is the most important, since I myself have radially different thought processes when I am on my ADHD medication or on pain medication, and would not view that alone as enough to distinguish me as a different person from my distinct mental state.

 

[coldcutconvict]

"It's time," Hazō announced grimly as the four members of Operation Twilight (Snowflake had decided that if Kei got to name the site of operations, then someone needed to name the mission as well) gathered on the central skytower. Furious winds lashed the outside of the old-fashioned seal-based air dome while the torrential rain pouring down it made Hazō feel like he was sitting inside an oversized Hōzuki's Mantle. The occasional flash of lightning reminded him that the team was altogether closer to the heavens than was currently sensible.

"Naruto has sent us a message," he went on. "Come back with your shark or in your shark."

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Cool place for a tense scene. Would be so on edge on a skytower in a lightning storm.

"He cannot be blamed," Kei interjected. "This part of the plan hinged on forcing him to face his personal nemesis, the man who stripped him of his power and doubtless tortured him in unimaginable ways in the process of preparing him for a uniquely agonising death that would use him as a tool for his loved ones' doom. A man, furthermore, with extensive experience practising psychic domination of other S-rankers with the aid of a Bloodline Limit ideally suited to the task. Your worst encounters with Orochimaru would be a luxurious soak in the hot springs by comparison. That the Eighth was able to stand firm and follow the plan at all is an achievement to be respected rather than a failure to excel."

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"I know you feel responsible for the ex-KEI ninja, Kei, but this time round, we're going to have to count on our ex-Coordinator Hokage to do what we can to protect them, and hope that it's enough. Maybe he'll put them under ANBU watch, or into safehouses or something."

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Everything is forgiven If Naruto safekeeps the wider Gōketsu clan. Maybe he can claim jurisdiction to 'put them in T&I' before Akatsuki gets them. Would kage cede AMITY power to pull + interview traitors from T&I?

"Fine," Hazō said. "It probably won't accomplish anything. But it also doesn't cost me anything–copying out a bunch of notes is hardly a big strain when I have a ton of shadow clones."

Snowflake's eyes narrowed. "Yes, of course. Why not create and destroy a few unique divergent perspectives for the purpose of trivial manual labour that you expect to accomplish nothing?"

"...On second thought, it would be safer to use the Iron Nerve anyway," Hazō said. "Can't risk copying errors when someone might use those notes for research some day." He had carefully avoided stepping into that trap array so far, and this was no time to change his mind.

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Do not kick useless tasks to SCs. Become the kind of person that loves doing useless tasks and be murdered by SCs in your sleep.

"I don't spend much time with my spiders anyway," Kagome-sensei said. "I tend to creep them out. They say it's not natural how my organs are all on the outside of my exoskeleton, and the little ones always ask me what happened to the rest of my legs. They mean well, I know, but it does get tiring after a while."

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Canabisu.

"I know that," Hazō said. "But we're about to slay the world's greatest monsters and become the heroes who saved it from an age of tyranny. Then, as an encore, we'll conquer the afterlife and bring back the dead. Kei, you are about to see Uplift gather a hell of a lot of momentum."

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Huu. The kage system will not survive.

Hazō privately prayed to Lord Jashin. Apparently, the dead leopards were not sufficient for him to receive any tangible sign of the deity(?)'s attention, unless cutting his finger during weapons maintenance counts.

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It begins. Unintentionally cut ourselves more often - Hidan reads the trail of blood flecks, drowning in Jashin points after forcing Leaf to recognize Jashinism as a religion.

Great chapter!

 

[Velorien]

It's not clear to me how pervasive this it is. Does it take a direct order, or is casting SC with a half-formed thought enough to invoke the controls?

Is Snow able to be an autonomous person without orders from Kei to be autonomous person?

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I think shadow clones have to have some filtering ability to prevent them from being doomed by accidental orders (e.g. Hazō creating a shadow clone while randomly thinking about how great it would be if he could just have a shadow clone punch Ritsuo in the face, or being mocked by Hazō UnluckyExample and angrily telling him to "shove it up [his] ass".)

Interesting. Why is this the case? If it's related to the lack of a Thinker Bloodline (some kind of safety feature in the technique itself, to minimize reintegration shock for Nara users?), does that mean every Thinker clan has cognitively independent Shadow Clones?

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Clearly, you should teach SC to the other Thinker clans and see what happens.

 

[Rihaku]

Clearly, you should teach SC to the other Thinker clans and see what happens.

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Does Hazou not know why Snowflake has 2), or was this covered in one of the many hundreds of intervening chapters?

 

[Noumero]

Clearly, you should teach SC to the other Thinker clans and see what happens.

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Weren't we planning to seduce a Yodomi (not Sasori) at some point? Too bad Sand is off-limits now...