Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Reader mode
RandomOTP said:
Taking over the Tower seems like a lot of paperwork and politics that would keep us from Doing Shit:tm:.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not take over the tower. Just do the tower's job.

Obviously rift race is a thing and blah, blah blah we might never get to fixing Leaf.

But I was thinking about boring info you need to organize Leaf to fight or thrive. Like having a solid exact number of how many Leaf ninja there are. How many of each tier we have. How many died in the last week? Prompt death reports and funerals for families. How many ninja do the other villages have? What's are military strength compared to others? Having someone keep track of the jutsu that we think would be heavily complimentary toward Leaf's current abilities and where they are. (Like finding paper jutsu for Hazo, as w/ seals would it would be a big deal) How big is Leaf's economy compared to others? How many tons of food do we produce in surplus? Etc. etc. etc.

And obviously it would be more a, we outsource the thing, check in every once in a while, and when we need, the QM's would give us the stats we're asking for or interested in at that moment *using the organization we set up* as a plausible way for us to have that info.


The world is different if say we're planning to go to war with Rock and when we're planning we're looking at for example:

With the current tower:

Rock capabilites:
??? ninja
*rumors*
some papers that fell of the back of a wagon

Leaf capabilites:
S rank ninja we personally know
Hazo's clan abilites
??? ninja (I mean how many ninja do we even have, am I right?)
??? capabilities (wouldn't want to say, that would be craaaaaazy)
??? creative jutsu combos

vs

Hazo Tower:

Rock capabilies:
32 chunin
5 jonin (and explanation of their abilites)
253 genin
Economy is 0.6 the size of Leaf
They import most of their food from z country
We want to capture y clan for their jutsu about x as it would go really well with Naruto's shadow clone technique.
Specialize in fire, so water jutsu would be great (for example, idk)


Leaf capabilites:
400 genin
25 chunin
6 jonin
What percent or what amount are sick, disabled, off duty, have ptsd, in the infirmary, on a mission, can't be brought up as they need to teach the next recruits, etc
Economy is 3x the size of enemy.
We're heavily dependent on resource xyz.
Here are the three major choke points for trade routes in Leaf.
Past experience has shown that this terrain is bad for Leaf's current military doctrine.
Special jutsu combo's or ideas the R&D department may have thought up.
Past casualty rates for when we last fought and doctrine the enemy used.
Etc.

DanZapman said:
I am uninterested in yet more Marked for Politics and I know multiple other people feel the same way. I understand your point about greater efficiency and I agree that we could be better, but I disagree that this is the best use of our time IC or OOC.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Mainly same. Though I don't see why we couldn't outsource/offscreen most of it. Just come of with a list of things we wanna know/tracked, pay people to do it, post bounties for information, etc. We're the richest people in Leaf rn. Money is good for many things. Including buying things you want to exist in the world.
 
CitizenTen said:
Just pay many groups of people separately? If I ask how many tons of X is being shipped out and we don't trust anyone, just pay three separate organizations to find the answer? If any group is different than the others than we know somethings up. Etc.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And now three separate organizations have access to our info to do whatever they want with it. Trusting 3 or X times as many guys as strictly necessary to do the job is not actually a clean solution to lacking people we can trust to do the job. Like, this is not a wrong answer as much as the situation sucks with no simple solution, that would be why I want to stay out of being responsible for it.
 
DanZapman said:
And now three separate organizations have access to our info to do whatever they want with it. Trusting 3 or X times as many guys as strictly necessary to do the job is not actually a clean solution to lacking people we can trust to do the job. Like, this is not a wrong answer as much as the situation sucks with no simple solution, that would be why I want to stay out of being responsible for it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Once again. I'm no saying we should manage it. Ask Mari to find someone else to run it. But if you're worried about getting bad intel about true things in the world, my point was, it's not that hard to check someone's work? If you thinks something's wrong, send someone else to check it out. Carry copies of records. Track people signing off on things. Fire those that don't do well. etc. There's less than one thousand ninja in leaf! It's just not that hard to keep track of that number of people!
 
CitizenTen said:
Ask Mari to find someone else to run it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Mari also has better things to do imo. I understand your point and I am saying that this is still closer to the management than I want to get.

CitizenTen said:
There's less than one thousand ninja in leaf! It's just not that hard to keep track of that number of people!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If they kept still or if we had a way to keep track of them besides devoting parts of our limited wordcount/attention/sanity/etc to them, sure. Neither of these are true, so I disagree.
 
eaglejarl said:
No. The jutsu modifies temperature by "up to 5C per level", so it can only change the temperature by 200C at level 40. +200C is dangerously hot but survivable for the few seconds necessary to get out of the zone, and isn't even hot enough to light paper on fire. (That would be 451F, as Bradbury fans know. :>) -200C, on the other hand, is below the temperature at which air becomes a liquid.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It actually might be hot enough to light paper depending on where you are. Even a temperature of 35°C would be enough, and you could always buy another level or two of the ninjutsu.
 
Quick check on wikipedia says autoignition temperature of leather or parchment starts at 200C. Plenty of other things will readily burn if heated anywhere near that far and then given a spark. Once fire starts, a stream of incoming air that's been significantly preheated without taking heat away from the flame (and effectively compressed back to the same density it had at STP) messes with physics behind Adiabatic flame temperature - Wikipedia which could potentially result in firestorms which burn hotter and more thoroughly than normally possible, thus spreading faster. Preheating incoming air was an important step toward modern steel smelting.
 
CitizenTen said:
Not take over the tower. Just do the tower's job.

Obviously rift race is a thing and blah, blah blah we might never get to fixing Leaf.

But I was thinking about boring info you need to organize Leaf to fight or thrive. Like having a solid exact number of how many Leaf ninja there are. How many of each tier we have. How many died in the last week? Prompt death reports and funerals for families. How many ninja do the other villages have? What's are military strength compared to others? Having someone keep track of the jutsu that we think would be heavily complimentary toward Leaf's current abilities and where they are. (Like finding paper jutsu for Hazo, as w/ seals would it would be a big deal) How big is Leaf's economy compared to others? How many tons of food do we produce in surplus? Etc. etc. etc.

And obviously it would be more a, we outsource the thing, check in every once in a while, and when we need, the QM's would give us the stats we're asking for or interested in at that moment *using the organization we set up* as a plausible way for us to have that info.


The world is different if say we're planning to go to war with Rock and when we're planning we're looking at for example:

With the current tower:

Rock capabilites:
??? ninja
*rumors*
some papers that fell of the back of a wagon

Leaf capabilites:
S rank ninja we personally know
Hazo's clan abilites
??? ninja (I mean how many ninja do we even have, am I right?)
??? capabilities (wouldn't want to say, that would be craaaaaazy)
??? creative jutsu combos

vs

Hazo Tower:

Rock capabilies:
32 chunin
5 jonin (and explanation of their abilites)
253 genin
Economy is 0.6 the size of Leaf
They import most of their food from z country
We want to capture y clan for their jutsu about x as it would go really well with Naruto's shadow clone technique.
Specialize in fire, so water jutsu would be great (for example, idk)


Leaf capabilites:
400 genin
25 chunin
6 jonin
What percent or what amount are sick, disabled, off duty, have ptsd, in the infirmary, on a mission, can't be brought up as they need to teach the next recruits, etc
Economy is 3x the size of enemy.
We're heavily dependent on resource xyz.
Here are the three major choke points for trade routes in Leaf.
Past experience has shown that this terrain is bad for Leaf's current military doctrine.
Special jutsu combo's or ideas the R&D department may have thought up.
Past casualty rates for when we last fought and doctrine the enemy used.
Etc.


Mainly same. Though I don't see why we couldn't outsource/offscreen most of it. Just come of with a list of things we wanna know/tracked, pay people to do it, post bounties for information, etc. We're the richest people in Leaf rn. Money is good for many things. Including buying things you want to exist in the world.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's also possible that the tower/kage have better intel, but deliberately don't share all of their info with Hazou OPSEC Traitorface Goketsu.

Similarly, they might be wary of why exactly Hazou suddenly wants to compile all Leaf's military readiness Intel and hold it outside of the tower.


Also, the tower benifits from being a trusted/stable Institution, Hazou is a terrible pick to run it.
Also also, "making our own tower" would be seen as a very public and disrespectful attack on the Hokage's power&authority.

Notice both that we probably can't outcompete the Nara at admin(who currently help with the tower), and that the Nara have not seen fit to start a rouge administration, despite being much less poorly positioned to do so than the Goketsu.
 
Last edited:
strange_person said:
Quick check on wikipedia says autoignition temperature of leather or parchment starts at 200C. Plenty of other things will readily burn if heated anywhere near that far and then given a spark. Once fire starts, a stream of incoming air that's been significantly preheated without taking heat away from the flame (and effectively compressed back to the same density it had at STP) messes with physics behind Adiabatic flame temperature - Wikipedia which could potentially result in firestorms which burn hotter and more thoroughly than normally possible, thus spreading faster. Preheating incoming air was an important step toward modern steel smelting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I sincerely doubt we'd get anything like a firestorm from EM. Not unless the environment was ripe for one. We might be able to burn the Zone of the cast really well, there's usually much too much water around in something like a forest to sustain a firestorm. We're talking about fires that are so large they create their own weather.

A Zone is roughly 0.175 acres, a wildfire is more than 500 acres. That's a difference of 3 orders of magnitude.

Most likely we'd burn away all the organic matter in the Zone and the fires wouldn't spread much further than that. Unless the countryside was particularly dry. Then we'd probably get a normal wildfire out of it.
 
DanZapman said:
Good thing we went for freeze, then, if that works out then wood has an adiabatic flame temperature of 1,980 C. In the middle of Fire...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Heating wouldn't have the same wide-area devastation as the cryohurricane since it doesn't have an equivalent phase-change tipping point pulling massive quantities of new air in. Once it spread more than a zone or two beyond the direct AoE, it'd probably be a relatively normal forest fire, which just happens to include an unusual hot spot. Someone in that hot spot might face unpleasant surprises involving the solidity of their metal equipment though.
 
Last edited:
Left-Hand Mutant said:
It's also possible that the tower/kage have better intel, but deliberately don't share all of their info with Hazou OPSEC Traitorface Goketsu.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Then we need to start building a replacement to the tower, like right NOW. You understand that right?


Left-Hand Mutant said:
Similarly, they might be wary of why exactly Hazou suddenly wants to compile all Leaf's military readiness Intel and hold it outside of the tower.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Tell them to pound sand. And yes? It's obviously a power grab. Hazo wants to push Leaf more toward his ideals. If people realize his ideals makes everything better in Leaf and most better off, than uh. Yeah? You caught him? That's Hazo's plan? To make Leaf better for everyone? And have everyone realize that's what happens when you follow his ideals? Also, he'd be happy to share it with anyone important in Leaf? Hazo wants good intel. The tower currently sucks at it. He's simply doing their job better. And it's not that big a deal? Jiaraiya had a spy network that he was famous for? We'd just be doing the same.


Left-Hand Mutant said:
Also, the tower benifits from being a trusted/stable Institution, Hazou is a terrible pick to run it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Bu it's just not? It's not a trusted institution? It's a failed one? That's like THE reason why we need to build a better alternative? Remember Akane?

Left-Hand Mutant said:
Notice both that we probably can't outcompete the Nara at admin(who currently help with the tower), and that the Nara have not seen fit to start a rouge administration, despite being much less poorly positioned to do so than the Goketsu.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well. The Nara's admin f*cked up on tracking less than a thousand people in a spreadsheet. With an organization so bad the people working there were to scared to report anything truthful. Literal comical incompetence. Looney toons sh*t. Furthermore, Nara have neither changed the face of warfare on multiple different occasions, nor did they become the richest clan (probably ever) in Leaf's history within the span of a year. So I believe there's just a tiny chance we can do something better.


And if it fails, so what? We lose money???? There's just no downside to Hazo paying people to having good intel. It's literally all upside?

Just ask Mari to find someone smart and trustworthy and give them a big budget. If they fail, oh well. If they succeed, then bam. We're cooking with gas. Asymetric risk/reward.
 
Last edited:
If the forests in Fire are actually a product of the Wood Release, we should probably be careful.

Natural forests are well-adapted to periodic forest fires, and it mainly only becomes a issue when we decide to live in the forests that expect to burn down with buildings that don't. Or when we put out forest fires early, creating a ecosystem which is ever-more flammable, until it gets really bad.

But a forest that just magically appeared out of thin air? That isn't going to be adapted to occasional fires. It could go a lot of directions. Maybe the overall environment is sufficient non-conducive to fire that it hasn't burnt down despite all the lightning and fire-wielding ninja. Or maybe it'll just take a big enough spark, and literally the entire thing would burn down in one go. Risky.
 
To be clear: In canon Naruto and supposedly in MfD, Hashirama Senju used Wood Release Secret Technique: Nativity of a World of Trees to create the forests around Konohagakure where previously there were none. As far as I know, this happened within what we would consider living memory because we have people that live to the ages of 80 or 90 or whatever. I have no clue how much this changed in MfD canon because the life of Hashirama Senju is purely legendary as far as most ninja alive are concerned, and because MfD introduced chakra-mutated wildlife.
 
It is my own expectation that there a plenty of natural forests in the land of fire, and if the Senju wood release did create the forest around the village hidden in the leaves, it is specifically just that small part of the forest he created, the immediate area around Leaf, which may have better camouflaged the village or made it hostile in some way towards enemies (better/easier/cheaper Senju jutsu) or whatever. At this point, decades later, it would effectively be just an extension of the natural forests that it no doubt connects with, and therefore is not meaningfully more at risk than the rest of the forests of leaf.

And with that said, yeah there are a lot of fire users who have fought in the forests of the land of fire. There is some sort of defense in place against the entire place burning up in a wildfire. Or in other words fire remains a tactical threat rather than a strategic one.
 
IIRC, Hazou saw remnants of Hashirama's chakra in the forests around Leaf with his Out Vision (back when his soul was still bleeding into the Out) while on a date with Akane.
 
RandomOTP said:
Taking over the Tower seems like a lot of paperwork and politics that would keep us from Doing Shit:tm:.

Worse, if Hazou the Very Squishy Loot Pinata dies, then suddenly Leaf is without a system of government.

We have the GED up and running, in addition to the NFF. These educational systems further civilian education, and specifically trains them in critical thinking skills. If Leaf can hold on for another few years, then they'll have begin to reap the benefits of having a massive influx of highly educated civilians entering the workforce/Tower.

We just need to ensure Leaf survives for that long.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I... do actually think this is something we should be doing, though you are correct that it is a lot of work... honestly, if Ami was around, I would just go to her, tell her she has a budget of "Yes" to take over the tower for Goketsu without dumping work on our plate.
 
Suleverf said:
I've finally finished binging the entire quest. I'm not sure if I will be able to contribute much to the hivemind, but I must say it's been a wild ride catching up. I praise the authors for their delightful prose, their almost decade-long dedication to the story, and their commitment to following the will of Lord Jashin's dice.

It's darkly hilarious that Hazou has unwittingly dipped into treason against most of the leaders he's served under and yet outlived many of them. And so again we return to the holy land of possible treason, only this time sanctioned.

Here are some other random questions I had from the quest overall if any regulars care to discuss:
Isn't it curious that out of all the times the clan suffered foul play that we never turn up concrete evidence for the culprits, only inferred suspects? From the bank run to Akane to a mysterious scarved figure, is this just a uniform failure of our investigative plans against various political actors, an underlying conspiracy like the Color Cabal, or some combination?

As I read mostly story-only, what was the thread's reasoning for having Akane test the EM nuke at the time? Were players anticipating a tactical-level nuke or a strategic-level nuke like the 10 mile storm it ended up being? I guess it was better to learn about it sooner than later, but she was already feeling bad about her war crimes and she didn't have a summoning scroll at the time to use it against the dragons.

Also would going the opposite direction for EM have created a similar nuke in the form of a firestorm? Or did it specifically depend on generating liquid air for the wide area effect?

If we want to create EM nuke runes, would this actually be effective at killing S-tier ninjas? The effect seems escapable due to the windup of EM and the static nature of runes unless they were too close to the rune in the first place. Maybe we could plant it with a dead man's switch as an insurance policy against Hidden Rain but that depends too much on Akatsuki believing us and not deciding to kill us anyway.

Did anything ever come of Kagome's "therapy" sessions with the Yamanaka? It feels like it just faded into the background, though I don't remember if the therapist survived the Collapse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Welcome! If you'd like to talk live, we have a discord server here for this and a few other stories. And please -- do not disparage your own contributions, we each bring our own insights and frankly, a fresh set of eyes on the quest is always a blessing; we've been here a while!
 
Sir Stompy said:
Like, I get it, we have surpassed Kagome. We are giving him chunin-level projects to work on in his secondary research facility.

It's fucked up and I don't know what to do about it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I would re-offer that 'propose the invention of tertiary education to streamline apprenticeships and put Kagome in charge of it' idea I had a while back. He's shown he's a phenomenal teacher - and not just with Hazou - with a better grasp of basic pedagogy than most. Leaf has a pressing need for streamlining that pipeline of idiots-to-experts, and Kagome is the man to do it; give him a task outside Sealing that frankly no one else in the Clan OR Leaf is fit for and let him build his own world-changing paradigm shift.
 
Suleverf said:
Also would going the opposite direction for EM have created a similar nuke in the form of a firestorm? Or did it specifically depend on generating liquid air for the wide area effect?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
ProperAttorney said:
It would not, it would just be very hot air.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Specifically, a hot EM causes the air within its radius to expand somewhat, then.... not much. Maybe a decent amount of overall heat gets produced if cast outside on a windy day, but it's not going to be a superweapon. On the other hand, cold-EM has a feedback effect where the liquefying air lowers the pressure within the target volume, pulling more air in. Unless the target volume is fully filled with ice or liquid air, the result is that air is constantly cycled through the volume, liquefying as it passes through.
 
Paperclipped said:
Specifically, a hot EM causes the air within its radius to expand somewhat, then.... not much.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's more significant than that. The density of air at 200c and normal pressure is roughly half that of atmospheric pressure. Hot air doesn't rise for nothing. So there will be a significant updraft, and corresponding inflow of air from the sides.

That said, while significant, its still nowhere near as dangerous as the incredible pressure differentials you get from liquifying the air.

A good way to get a handle on the effects might be to look at IRL forest fire updrafts, which are significant (apparently upwards of 50mph winds), and can result in fire tornados... but are probably no particular danger to a ninja.

Edit: Some quick math suggests that the increase in pressure would create roughly 1-2 gigajoules of energy. This is significant (around a quarter ton of tnt), but its also exceedingly spread out and not particularly concentrated, so I suspect you'd just get a big outrushing of (very hot) air as soon as the effect starts. This would probably cause a bunch of fires in the surrounding zones and wouldn't be pleasant to experience, but if you can survive the center of the effect you can survive that.
 
Last edited:
Shane_357 said:
I would re-offer that 'propose the invention of tertiary education to streamline apprenticeships and put Kagome in charge of it' idea I had a while back. He's shown he's a phenomenal teacher - and not just with Hazou - with a better grasp of basic pedagogy than most. Leaf has a pressing need for streamlining that pipeline of idiots-to-experts, and Kagome is the man to do it; give him a task outside Sealing that frankly no one else in the Clan OR Leaf is fit for and let him build his own world-changing paradigm shift.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Velorien said:
maybe get him some more apprentices and see if any of them survive–not that they will because he's stupid and can't even drum basic sealing safety into their heads
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think this is going to solve our problems. If any of them die (and they will) it might make it worse.

Regardless, even if this would fix everything, we cannot do this right now. Right now we're going to be giving him chunin-level sealing projects to complete. No way around it.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top