That said, under normal conditions, there is water vapour in the air. I hope that once we get VD to S-rank levels (80+) Noburi will be able to drain through it.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Yes.
@OliWhail just wanted to check if there was an update on the thing?
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
Doesn't matter, he can easily have us killed so whatever he says goes -- hey, wait a minute, I see what you did there!
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Greetings, folks,
Let me lead off by saying that the quest is going to continue, updates will still be on the same schedule, and the changes that are discussed below will be to your advantage.
The QMs don't want to quit, but we do need to make some significant changes before we get to the point where we do want to quit, because we can see that place on the horizon. All three of us have some pretty stressful real-life things going on right now, so spoons are in shorter supply than usual, and tempers are a bit more frayed. (Apologies to those who have, shall we say, had reason to notice this.) These are not short-term things that are going to expire in the next couple of weeks, so we need to account for them.
For a long time now, the QM team has been getting more and more exhausted by our current rule system. Everything is ad hoc, which means the QMs need to put in significant effort every time you guys want to create a new seal, learn a new jutsu, etc. Stats are only used as paywalls, so if you want to do something you don't have exactly the right skill for then there's nothing to fall back to. It's hard to design new things, which is frustrating for both players and QMs. Combats are a nightmare to keep track of, and the nightmare gets worse every time a new option is added to the heroes' arsenals.
It's been a long time coming, but this fight has brought it to a head. It's basically broken the QM team with its complexity, so we've finally decided to just bite the bullet and swap the quest to a professionally designed RPG system. We know this is going to be upsetting, especially with the story in the middle of the fight scene and we want to work with the playerbase to make it as non-traumatic as possible. The changeover is going to happen, that's not up for discussion. We would, however, like to get the players' input on the following questions:
Here's our intent for what happens next:
Let me lead off by saying that the quest is going to continue, updates will still be on the same schedule, and the changes that are discussed below will be to your advantage.
The QMs don't want to quit, but we do need to make some significant changes before we get to the point where we do want to quit, because we can see that place on the horizon. All three of us have some pretty stressful real-life things going on right now, so spoons are in shorter supply than usual, and tempers are a bit more frayed. (Apologies to those who have, shall we say, had reason to notice this.) These are not short-term things that are going to expire in the next couple of weeks, so we need to account for them.
For a long time now, the QM team has been getting more and more exhausted by our current rule system. Everything is ad hoc, which means the QMs need to put in significant effort every time you guys want to create a new seal, learn a new jutsu, etc. Stats are only used as paywalls, so if you want to do something you don't have exactly the right skill for then there's nothing to fall back to. It's hard to design new things, which is frustrating for both players and QMs. Combats are a nightmare to keep track of, and the nightmare gets worse every time a new option is added to the heroes' arsenals.
It's been a long time coming, but this fight has brought it to a head. It's basically broken the QM team with its complexity, so we've finally decided to just bite the bullet and swap the quest to a professionally designed RPG system. We know this is going to be upsetting, especially with the story in the middle of the fight scene and we want to work with the playerbase to make it as non-traumatic as possible. The changeover is going to happen, that's not up for discussion. We would, however, like to get the players' input on the following questions:
- We're right in the middle of a fight scene, and that's a crappy place to make the change. Our thought is to roll everything back and start from an earlier point once the new rules are in place. The places that make the most sense to us are:
- The end of Chapter 160, when you were in the fort and Noburi sensed the incoming hostiles; or,
- The end of Chapter 159, when Hazō had just seen the night light seals and realized the danger. This is before you built the fort.
- We are open to suggestions for other rollback points, although it will be a tough sell to make us go further back then the end of chapter 159. We are also open to suggestions for non-rollback options.
- If you really, really want to see Hazō go to Noburi's rescue, there are probably enough spoons available for that to happen on Sunday. If we do this, the rest of the battle still won't happen until after the changeover. (Note that Hazō is in a very disadvantageous position right now, so a rollback would probably be good for you! ;>)
- What system should we switch to? The QMs are currently investigating the HERO system (exact variant TBD, probably either Champions or Ninja Hero) but we're willing to be convinced of something else. If you want to make a suggestion, please include the following:
- Name of system.
- Statement of why you think it would be a good choice. Remember that the goal is something that's easy to use, fast-moving, and flexible. "Easy to learn" is also a desirable characteristic, as is "easy to automate".
- Link to a zero-cost source of the rules, either online or as a download. (HERO and Ninja Hero are available free. PM me if you can't find them.)
Here's our intent for what happens next:
- First, updates will continue on the normal schedule. They will consist of interludes, flashbacks, etc. We will ask you to vote for what you want to see, although we do reserve the right to override the vote if we choose. (We definitely will not be showing anything that provides major OOC knowledge, so don't even try voting for "Akatsuki talking about their dastardly plan and where they are right now."
) - We'll figure out how to handle the in-story events during the changeover -- via rollback or something else and, if rollback, to when.
- At the same time as we're figuring out the changeover, we'll figure out what RPG system to change to. We're not going to rush this, but we also don't want to linger over it. If it takes a couple weeks, that's fine. If opinions converge faster, even better. If we need more time, we'll take more time. Remember that HERO is the current leading candidate.
- Once the system is chosen, we'll ask the playerbase for help in porting Hazō, Akane, Noburi, and Keiko to the new system. If you want to put together templates for NPCs that would be much appreciated as well. The QMs will create sheets for Mari, Jiraiya, and Kagome.
DarkSideBard
Flying, without moving on
Thanks so much for all the hard work y'all have put and are putting into this quest to make it work. I mostly lurk because of the complexity of the rules/rulings set, but even that has always been a great pleasure.
Thanks for being so communicative and reasonable throughout the quest's history. I hope this transition goes smoothly.
Thanks for being so communicative and reasonable throughout the quest's history. I hope this transition goes smoothly.
will408914
(slouching towards bethlehem)
- Location
- California
[jk] Lore Update: Akatsuki talking about their dastardly plan and where they are right now
I recommend Mutants and Masterminds, using the optional "Power Level Unlimited" rules.
M&M is basically the most versatile system I'm aware of. It has lots of ways that you can build things, and has a distinction between crunch and fluff built into the rules (a "Damage 5, ranged, penetrating." effect could represent a plasma bolt, a magical necromantic energy blast, or laser eye-beams, and depending on what it represents, it can counter different things).
Power Levels limit how good a character can be at offense or defence. Your attack check (roll to hit) plus your effect rank (DC to wound) cannot be higher than your PL*2, your skills cannot be higher than your PL+10, your Toughness plus either active defence cannot be higher than your PL*2, and your Fortitude plus Will cannot be higher than your PL*2. This means that if you're very strong, then you cannot also be very accurate, and if you've got some kind of armour then you cannot also be good at dodging. The PLU optional rules do away with that.
I have a number of grievances with the system, all of which basically boil down to "That isn't very simulationist.". M&M doesn't try to represent how things would actually work, it has several things thrown in because "That's how things happen in comic books.", (this leads to situations where Coffee Man, a super hero who carries a thermos of coffee, cannot drink it himself because you cannot use a "Healing, energizing." effect on yourself, and if he offers his coffee to someone else he becomes as tired as they were before they drank it because when you use such an effect on someone else you take on all their fatigue ranks) but you could always run house rules to override things like that.
Overall, I think M&M is a very good system, and I'd be happy to try converting some stuff if you asked.
M&M is basically the most versatile system I'm aware of. It has lots of ways that you can build things, and has a distinction between crunch and fluff built into the rules (a "Damage 5, ranged, penetrating." effect could represent a plasma bolt, a magical necromantic energy blast, or laser eye-beams, and depending on what it represents, it can counter different things).
Power Levels limit how good a character can be at offense or defence. Your attack check (roll to hit) plus your effect rank (DC to wound) cannot be higher than your PL*2, your skills cannot be higher than your PL+10, your Toughness plus either active defence cannot be higher than your PL*2, and your Fortitude plus Will cannot be higher than your PL*2. This means that if you're very strong, then you cannot also be very accurate, and if you've got some kind of armour then you cannot also be good at dodging. The PLU optional rules do away with that.
I have a number of grievances with the system, all of which basically boil down to "That isn't very simulationist.". M&M doesn't try to represent how things would actually work, it has several things thrown in because "That's how things happen in comic books.", (this leads to situations where Coffee Man, a super hero who carries a thermos of coffee, cannot drink it himself because you cannot use a "Healing, energizing." effect on yourself, and if he offers his coffee to someone else he becomes as tired as they were before they drank it because when you use such an effect on someone else you take on all their fatigue ranks) but you could always run house rules to override things like that.
Overall, I think M&M is a very good system, and I'd be happy to try converting some stuff if you asked.
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Propose System: Mutants and Masterminds
Why is it a good choice:
Mutants and Masterminds is a very simple system when it comes to dice rolling, using a D20 roll to resolve everything. However it's built as a superhero system meaning it's perfect for building esoteric ninja powers and abilities. It also includes many elements from your existing system, including an emphasis on degree of success on determining how effective an action is. There is a large and active community which has almost certainly already converted Naruto characters into the system and has many other antagonists you can easily steal. Sealing can be simulated using gadgets, gears, and magical rituals.
Overall, I really think the game does a lot of what you want.
Link to zero-cost rules sources:
d20HeroSRD
This is a System Reference Document that gives all the game roles.
In addition, here is an active forum where dedicated fans have already made many characters.
Roll Call
EDIT: I also recommend reading the Design Diaries in this thread to help understand the system.
Jab's Builds!!
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- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Re systems: the only RPGs I'm familiar with are D&D and GURPS. I don't think either would be good in this situation.
Re rollbacks: I think back to before we built the fort would be good, because Idk if we're still gonna want to do the fort strat with the new RPG system (depends on the mechanics I guess).
Re rollbacks: I think back to before we built the fort would be good, because Idk if we're still gonna want to do the fort strat with the new RPG system (depends on the mechanics I guess).
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Shadowy figure: "What do you think of the plan, my fellow Akatsuki member?"
Mysterious shinobi: "It is an excellent plan. Bold, ambitious, creative... I doubt anybody in the Elemental Nations will see it coming."
Shadowy figure: "Indeed."
Mysterious shinobi: "The way in which Yagura and Naruto will play their parts is very clever, as is the application of that. I also like how the plan applies our specific resources and abilities to the individual tasks. Really, the whole thing is brilliant."
Shadowy figure: "Yes, uh..."
Mysterious shinobi: "The timing is magnificent, given how the plan will be completed just when it's most appropriate. And when you think of the individuals and/or locations that will experience its impact... truly, it is a plan worthy of your talents."
Shadowy figure: "OK, you're starting to creep me out."
Mysterious shinobi: "Say, I really like it here, at the Red Dragon Inn in the town of Muroto in southeast Hot Springs, easily accessible via the South Trade Road and conveniently identifiable from the air by the town's distinctive red shingle roofs. It's a nice place. Why don't we hang out here together some more?"
Shadowy figure: "No, I think we should leave the area and head for our secret hideout. Immediately. Via separate routes."
Mysterious shinobi: [Damn, that was almost a date...]
- Location
- Yes.
You would.
- Location
- UK
Right back at ya!
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Hey, there's only two things I actually ship and neither of them are in this story
So @eaglejarl @Velorien here's the thing about professional game systems.
They are designed to run games that tell stories, not to simulate a world. There is a lot a professional system can do for you as far as combat, but it's still going to leave it entirely in GM hands when it comes to, "Will this Seal drastically alter the balance of power in the Elemental Nations?" Which would be fine in a standard game, but MfD has a very much, "You're welcome to break the world if you can logically make it happen," vibe.
I think this is going to help, but it's by no means going to take all the burden off you. Professional game systems are concerned with the capabilities of specific characters. It'll tell you what a reasonable game balance is for your ninja wizard to acquire a spell that lets him explode things by writing on pieces of paper in ink. Whether you can produce a seal that lets non-wizards put stuff in dimensional storage is not something a professional game system will tell you. At best it'll provide a skill you can use to roll against some arbitrary number.
They are designed to run games that tell stories, not to simulate a world. There is a lot a professional system can do for you as far as combat, but it's still going to leave it entirely in GM hands when it comes to, "Will this Seal drastically alter the balance of power in the Elemental Nations?" Which would be fine in a standard game, but MfD has a very much, "You're welcome to break the world if you can logically make it happen," vibe.
I think this is going to help, but it's by no means going to take all the burden off you. Professional game systems are concerned with the capabilities of specific characters. It'll tell you what a reasonable game balance is for your ninja wizard to acquire a spell that lets him explode things by writing on pieces of paper in ink. Whether you can produce a seal that lets non-wizards put stuff in dimensional storage is not something a professional game system will tell you. At best it'll provide a skill you can use to roll against some arbitrary number.
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Clearly we just need to move to the Exalted 2.5e system, roll back to the moment Jiraiya accepted us into Leaf, and have Hazou exalt as a Twilight Solar and then proceed to take overoptimize the world through inventing stuff. We can give Hazou a Compassion based Virtue Flaw that makes him try to force other people to be optimal for the betterment of the world when he experiences Limit Break, no matter how it might make them suffer.
...dammit, now I'm tempted to try to make a character sheet for Exalted!Hazou.
Anyways, the Mutants and Monsters system sounds good to me just based on the descriptions, though I have no real clue how it works since I've never played anything using it. As far as when to roll back to, I'd say before we made the fort as my preference, but at the start of the battle before we made our battle plan would still be fine with me.
...dammit, now I'm tempted to try to make a character sheet for Exalted!Hazou.
Anyways, the Mutants and Monsters system sounds good to me just based on the descriptions, though I have no real clue how it works since I've never played anything using it. As far as when to roll back to, I'd say before we made the fort as my preference, but at the start of the battle before we made our battle plan would still be fine with me.
- Location
- USA
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I will slam my face into the wall until it's bloodied if we ever consider moving to a White Wolf system. I loathe White Wolf/World of Darkness mechanics with the passion of a thousand suns.
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- Location
- Snakesden
[x] Lore Update: Scenes from Konoha's Chunin Exams
[x] Lore Update: Jiraiya reminisces about Naruto
[x] Lore Update: Anything involving inscrutable Nara conversations
[x] Lore Update: Shikamaru's lovestruck assistant hears he might get married to Keiko
[x] Lore Update: The trials and tribulations of a humble YOUTHSUIT merchant
[x] Lore Update: Gai Gaiden: Youthsuit Origins
[x] Lore Update: that one time Tenten and Neji had to wear youthsuits, and why it's never happening again
...can we do this every week?
--
Edit: seriously, though, I'm glad you guys are doing what you need to to keep the quest manageable for you. It's been a great story and community for so long, and I'd hate for it to end for reasons like this.
Also, are there other ways we can help? E.g., would you potentially be okay with having reader-written updates (something like preapproved canon omake) for times like this when you're all low on spoons and/or have significant other work to do on the quest?
[x] Lore Update: Jiraiya reminisces about Naruto
[x] Lore Update: Anything involving inscrutable Nara conversations
[x] Lore Update: Shikamaru's lovestruck assistant hears he might get married to Keiko
[x] Lore Update: The trials and tribulations of a humble YOUTHSUIT merchant
[x] Lore Update: Gai Gaiden: Youthsuit Origins
[x] Lore Update: that one time Tenten and Neji had to wear youthsuits, and why it's never happening again
...can we do this every week?
--
Edit: seriously, though, I'm glad you guys are doing what you need to to keep the quest manageable for you. It's been a great story and community for so long, and I'd hate for it to end for reasons like this.
Also, are there other ways we can help? E.g., would you potentially be okay with having reader-written updates (something like preapproved canon omake) for times like this when you're all low on spoons and/or have significant other work to do on the quest?
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As much as I advise using M&M PLU, especially for the combat/skill mechanics which it truly excels at, there are some parts of MfD that M&M will fundamentally break down in.
With MfD, simulationism, munchkinning, and freedom of choice is a large part of the mission statement. Whereas M&M is explicitly anti-simulationist, declaring comicbook rule-of-cool and game balance to take priority over logical consequences, and encouraging the GMs to railroad to keep the players from derailing the story with their shenanigans. And the system reflects this.
Which is fun if you're playing that sort of game. But it doesn't work here.
So my personal recommendation to the QMs is this: Take the M&M rules and then pick and choose what details you want to change or throw out so as to retain the MfD experience. But don't change more than details, or we'll wind up back at square one with a broken system.
With MfD, simulationism, munchkinning, and freedom of choice is a large part of the mission statement. Whereas M&M is explicitly anti-simulationist, declaring comicbook rule-of-cool and game balance to take priority over logical consequences, and encouraging the GMs to railroad to keep the players from derailing the story with their shenanigans. And the system reflects this.
Which is fun if you're playing that sort of game. But it doesn't work here.
So my personal recommendation to the QMs is this: Take the M&M rules and then pick and choose what details you want to change or throw out so as to retain the MfD experience. But don't change more than details, or we'll wind up back at square one with a broken system.
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- Location
- In my Lair, on my Hoard
Hi, I've only recently found this Quest, and went through all that's been played, and was eager to wait till this update so I can officially join in, but, well, I now learn this.
Now, I gotta agree with @MadScientist about M&M being more comic-book-trope style. I've played M&M 3e extensively, and it wouldn't fit MfD too well.
And I haven't played GURPS or HERO, but those might suit MfD better as they're pretty "generic, crunch heavy, and simulationist". Don't recommend them, though - waaay too complicated for someone who hasn't run them before to make it work.
Or if you want something with decent crunch, but quick gameplay, maybe something hacked from the d6 system?
Or, hell, let's get out Tri-Stat, either the dX or BESM versions and use that to do everything - BESM/Tri-Stat dX can handle Naruto easy, though it doesn't really handle "improvise new techniques/skills/power-uses on the fly" too well.
Now, I gotta agree with @MadScientist about M&M being more comic-book-trope style. I've played M&M 3e extensively, and it wouldn't fit MfD too well.
And I haven't played GURPS or HERO, but those might suit MfD better as they're pretty "generic, crunch heavy, and simulationist". Don't recommend them, though - waaay too complicated for someone who hasn't run them before to make it work.
Or if you want something with decent crunch, but quick gameplay, maybe something hacked from the d6 system?
Or, hell, let's get out Tri-Stat, either the dX or BESM versions and use that to do everything - BESM/Tri-Stat dX can handle Naruto easy, though it doesn't really handle "improvise new techniques/skills/power-uses on the fly" too well.
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ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
I'm actually a big fan of Hero as a framework for power building.
Figuring out what powers map to what what power frameworks may take some work.
It can certainly handle a wide range of effects, and makes things like skill boosting powers easy (buy the skill as power plus modifiers).
Figuring out what powers map to what what power frameworks may take some work.
It can certainly handle a wide range of effects, and makes things like skill boosting powers easy (buy the skill as power plus modifiers).