Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

ProperAttorney · Tuesday at 6:09 PM

Shrooms said:
They aren't lossless and only last 10 minutes... are we just hoping the Sannin have some that last longer or am I missing something here

They have unlimited chakra pools. You have to pay the summon cost every ten minutes, but you can have that come from the elemental clone as they cast EC again and dump the entire chakra pool. Have one of the genin with us cast it so that the summon cost is minimal and then you only have to pay... approximately 15-30 every 10 minutes, or 90-180 an hour. As long as you are putting more chakra in from regen of the group into the elemental clone, then you are way positive on chakra.

_The_Bomb · Tuesday at 6:34 PM

18scsc said:
There will also probably be other random Leaf Jonin with us that know SC as well.

Left-Hand Mutant said:
SC is heavily restricted, and I think Kurenai is the only Jounin in the Leaf contingent.

I don't recall the quote offhand, but I believe Shadow Clone is way rarer than you're thinking, 18scsc. At one point, I think the QMs said that the only Clan Heads that even know the ninjutsu are probably Asuma, Naruto, Hazō, and Tsunade.

(This was admittedly before the Rock War, so Shikamaru almost definitely has it now as well.)

OrthernLight · Tuesday at 6:39 PM

It may have been more common at one point, or the QMs may have reconsidered on how common it should be, but back in the chūnin exams arc Jiraiya says:

eaglejarl said:
"Most of Leaf's top jōnin use it, including me. Helps enormously with the paperwork, although even with two of me on it, the stuff is usually still bad enough that I want to drown myself in order to end the pain. It's also the reason that our jōnin tend to be so powerful; they can fit more training into a day than most people.

_The_Bomb · Tuesday at 6:40 PM

18scsc said:
@Sir Stompy

I have gone deep into the spreadsheets and come out with an even more optimized Chakra budget. We can recover 13600+ CP over 17 hours with careful usage of SCs as chakra capacitors. This would allow us a total of 35,600 CP to work with, allowing us to afford:

10x Hazō SCs with a total of 400 CP each + Further CP ear marked for runic infusions.

5x Tsunade SCs w/ Strength of 100 (1600 CP each).

10x Orochimaru SCs w/ 600 CP each

All 5 bosses.

Ma and Pa

All 20 jonin summons.

5x Kurenai SCs w/ 500 CP each

3x Mari SCs w/ 500 CP each

1. First we need to calculate the efficiency of using SCs as Chakra capacitors.

This can be approximated as 'Efficiency' = "1-('SC_Jutsu_Cost'/'Marginal_CP_Capacity')".

'SC_Jutsu_Cost' = 150 + 25 * 'SC_Quantity'

'Marginal_CP_Capacity' = 'SC_Quantity' * 'SC_CP_Capacity'.

Assumption: The SCs have time to get refilled to max.

This means that raw Chakra reserves are far more important than quantity of SCs cast when it comes to maximizing capacitive efficiency.

Ex: Hazō would have to spend 350 CP, summoning 8 SCs for 3280CP of marginal capacity before he could match the efficiency of Tsunade spending 175 CP to cast 1 SC for >1600 CP

Furthermore Tsunade would have to spend 1/4th the clone hours as Hazō for the same marginal capacity.

So Tsunade, Orochimaru, Mari, and Kurenai are probably our most efficient CP capacitators (in that order).

2. Then we need to assess SC hour limits. Breaking these into tranches by SC jutsu level:

Tranche A: 40 > SC > 30.

I would be shocked if either of the Sannin had less than 49 resolve. This would translate to a maximum of 38 cumulative clone hours.

Kurenai probably has at least 39 resolve for 25 clone hours. Mari certainly has at least this much, given that she's been FOOMing

Tranche B: SC > 40

Hazō has 63 resolve for 58 clone hours.

Kei has 69 resolve for 64 clone hours

3. Next we need to figure out how much time we spend storing up CP in SC capacitors. I am assuming T-17 hours from attack time. This will give us 17*800=13600+ of extra CP to work with.

With 20k in organic chakra sources we should be seeing 833 CP regen per hour, I'm rounding that down to 800 for safety.

If we are already closer to the attack time than T-17 we can probably just spend a FP to declare that we started summoning SCs at T-17.

4. Now this just leaves us with the actual budget planning:

Strategy:

Prioritize capacitors in order of most efficient to least, but avoid exhausting combatant clone hours.

Don't let any regen go to waste, keep expanding CP capacity so that we can capture all possible regen over the 17 hour time period.

Summon Hazōs' 9 SCs as early as possible since they can pull double duty as a fairly efficient capacitor.

5. Kurenai is probably better at 1-on-1 Genjutsu fights whereas Mari is better for her massed attacks. We probably want to have more Kurenai SCs than Mari SCs.

Actual Plan:

T-17

CP_Current: 22k

CP_Max: 22

CP_Regen: N/A (CP maxed)

Summon: 4x Mari SC (assuming 600 CP total reserve) - costs 0.25k

CP_Updated: 21.75K

CP_NewMax: 24.4k

T-14

CP Current: 24.15k

CP_Max: 24.4k

CP_Regen: 0.8(17-14) = 2.4k

Summon: 2x Tsunade SC (1600 CP), 4x New Mari SC - costs 0.45k

Release: 4x old Mari SC

CP_NewMax: 27.6k

CP_Updated: 23.7k

T-11

CP Current: 26.1k

CP_Max: 27.6k

CP_Regen: 0.8(14-11) = 2.4k

Summon: 2x Tsunade SC (1600 CP), 5x Kurenai SC - costs ~0.5k

Release: 4x old Mari SC, 2x old Tsunade SC

CP_NewMax: 28.2k

CP_Updated: 25.6k

T-8

CP Current: 28k

CP_Max: 28.2k

CP_Regen: 0.8(11-8) = 2.4k

Summon: 8x Kei (she needs to take a mild consequence from CP overcharge first), 2x Tsunade, 3x Orochimaru (assuming 800 CP w/o bioseals) - costs 0.8k

Release: 5x old Kurenai SC, 2x old Tsunade SC

CP_NewMax: 30.7k

CP_Updated: 27.2k

T-5

CP Current: 29.6k

CP_Max: 30.7k

CP_Regen: 0.8(8-5) = 2.4k

Summon: 10x Hazō, allocate 400 CP each - costs 4.4k

Release: Sannin SCs

CP_NewMax: 29.1k

CP_Updated: 25.2k

T-2

CP Current: 27.6

CP_Max: 29.1k

CP_Regen: 0.8(5-2) = 2.4k

Summon: 5x Tsunade w/ So100 (1600 CP) + 10x Orochimaru (600 CP) - costs 14k

Release: Kei SCs

CP_NewMax: Irrelevant

CP_Updated: 13.6k

T-0

CP Current: 15.2K

CP_Max: Irrelevant

CP_Regen: 0.8(2-0) = 1.6k

Summon: 5x Summon Bosses, Ma and Pa, 20x Jonin Summons, 3x Mari SC (500 CP), 5x Kurenai SC (500 CP) - costs 14k

Release: Kei SCs

CP_NewMax: Irrelevant

CP_Updated: 13.6k

@Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien

Would we be allowed to do something like this?

redzonejoe · Tuesday at 6:41 PM

OrthernLight said:
It may have been more common at one point, or the QMs may have reconsidered on how common it should be, but back in the chūnin exams arc Jiraiya says:

Most of leaf's top jonin are dead.

The ones who are left could still have it though, need to empower our remaining forces and all. So yes, good point.

ProperAttorney · Tuesday at 6:43 PM

I suppose I should come out and ask it too.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Can Noburi fill an elemental clone with more chakra than was initially invested in it?

Spector29 · Tuesday at 6:57 PM

[X] Action Plan: Armageddon Initiative (Atheist Edition)

ProperAttorney · Tuesday at 7:00 PM

[X] Action Plan: Armageddon Initiative (Atheist Edition)

redzonejoe · Tuesday at 7:06 PM

Noumero said:
Oh nooo... Whatever shall we dooo~

(Don't threaten me with a good time.)

Look, I like overcoming challenges. I play almost every game on the hardest difficulty.

But I see this quest as a narrative first and a game second, and the narrative of "I sold my soul to the devil for this +1 longsword*, and now everybody else is paying the price" is not one I want to create. I'm sure the challenge of taking down this powerful entity will still be there if we really want to go for it.

*Actual boon not guaranteed

Sir Stompy · Tuesday at 7:33 PM

Left-Hand Mutant said:
When they had basically unbounded chakra for the dragonwar, they chose to max out at 20 clone-hours.

This was to minimize exposure to the Beautiful Dragon I believe. Not a clone-hour limitation

Left-Hand Mutant · Tuesday at 7:34 PM

redzonejoe said:
Okay I haven't fully articulated my anti-Jashin arguments yet, so I'm going to give it an attempt just in case you guys haven't considered these points before. Somehow.

I am fairly strongly convinced that the QMs don't have some secret Jashin +x to rolls modifier Akatsuki will be using in the battle. Similarly, I don't think Jashin will allow the likes of Itachi or Sasori any rerolls the way our FP does. I am 100%, absolutely convinced that Jashin, the in-game entity, can't affect our real life (or digital) die rolls, I am not nearly superstitious enough for that.

What I do think Jashin can do is act as a tag for Hidan. Hidan can personally receive some buff or mechanical advantage from his god. This is, after all, what makes him immortal, and may affect him in other ways.

I do not think Hazo's silent prayers will affect that tag in any way. I do not think Hazo will himself gain a similar tag, or achieve sudden immortality.

In short, I am very strongly convinced that this will do nothing for us in terms of actual, fleshed out, currently existing game mechanics.

While I disagree about the mechanical effects Hidan gets(which I suspect include something similar to loaded fate dice), that's not the main issue. I think 3 of the biggest single-source reasons the assault fails might be:
1) we somehow blunder into Sasori's defences
2) Hidan gets lucky and wanders over while we're still setting up
3) Konan is there and nobody has a counter

And the Jashin sacrifice is in hopes of not having Hidan find us way early.(With no comment on if I find that likely to work)

_The_Bomb · Tuesday at 7:45 PM

Velorien said:
If you granted Tsunade another 1000 CP per clone, she could prepare a weaker version of Strength of a Hundred for them as a pre-battle buff.

@18scsc @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Let's say Tsuande creates a shadow clone who we fill up to 600 CP, and then give an extra 1000 CP for her Strength of Hundred buff.

Assuming that Shadow Clone sits around for a few hours and does nothing else:

Would Noburi be able to drain 1600 CP from her, or just 600 CP?
Would dispelling herself redistribute 1600 CP along the Tsuande network, or just 600 CP?

Basically, we want to know what the maximum amount of storage we could get from a Tsunade shadow clone.

redzonejoe · Tuesday at 7:53 PM

Left-Hand Mutant said:
I think 3 of the biggest single-source reasons the assault fails might be:

2) Hidan gets lucky and wanders over while we're still setting up

And the Jashin sacrifice is in hopes of not having Hidan find us way early.(With no comment on if I find that likely to work)

Ignoring the rest as unimportant... I can see the logic behind this, I still disagree with it but I can understand it at least. It is also not at all what the vote is setting up.

Sir Stompy said:
The Battle

Aim for any members of Akatsuki you can see as top priority targets.

Below that, any concentrations of ninja.

Set up signals that assualt force can give via Banshee/signal justu for calling down shots on their position or nearby positions.

Silently pray to Jashin, and dedicate all kills in his name.

This is taking place during the battle. This is after Hidan presumably fails to find us.

We're not praying to Jashin before the battle, bargaining with him, saying "Please o mighty Jashin, side with us and I will be your loyal follower and dedicate all my kills to you from this point onwards!" and hoping that the promise of future devotion will sway him to side with us here and now, over his immortal head priest who has killed thousands in his name.

No, we're setting everything up, starting the fight, and only after we've successfully attacked and hopefully killed things does Hazo silently, mentally say "These kills are for you, Jashin. Enjoy."

It would be one thing, something I'd still disagree with, if Hazo was negotiating/pleading for an advantage. That's not how it's written.

Hazo is just full on converting for no given reason except some people in thread saying every little bit of potential luck helps. Even that isn't actually in the vote. The QMs would be fully justified in reading the vote and saying 'okay I guess the thread is full on jashinist now, cool, but has nothing to do with the battle so we'll deal with the fallout of that later.'

18scsc · Tuesday at 7:58 PM

_The_Bomb said:
@18scsc @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Let's say Tsuande creates a shadow clone who we fill up to 600 CP, and then give an extra 1000 CP for her Strength of Hundred buff.

Assuming that Shadow Clone sits around for a few hours and does nothing else:

Would Noburi be able to drain 1600 CP from her, or just 600 CP?

Would dispelling herself redistribute 1600 CP along the Tsuande network, or just 600 CP?

Basically, we want to know what the maximum amount of storage we could get from a Tsunade shadow clone.

Bump.

Tbh we don't need an exact amount. IC the question might be "do you use all the chakra for So100 at once, like a normal jutsu?" and then "will you need to refill after using So100, or do you have enough reserves to be fully combat ready directly after casting the buff?"

I understand that chakra regeneration isn't constant, and that other characters don't have the spreadsheet vision necessary to be perfect chakra capacitors.

My thought is that we can just establish a common sense baseline for what sort of order of magnitude is possible. Aka "we can feasibly get 13k CP out of using shadow clones as capacitors" and then you guys can just roll to determine the "margin of error". That way we can abstract away all the other fuzzy factors like "do any of the noncombatant leaf-nin have SC" or "exact chakra regen rate at any given hour" or "how many clone hours the sannin are willing to commit to being capacitors".

Sir Stompy · Tuesday at 8:01 PM

18scsc said:
Bump.

Tbh we don't need an exact amount. IC the question might be "do you use all the chakra for So100 at once, like a normal jutsu?" and then "will you need to refill after using So100, or do you have enough reserves to be fully combat ready directly after casting the buff?"

I understand that chakra regeneration isn't constant, and that other characters don't have the spreadsheet vision necessary to be perfect chakra capacitors.

My thought is that we can just establish a common sense baseline for what sort of order of magnitude is possible. Aka "we can feasibly get 13k CP out of using shadow clones as capacitors" and then you guys can just roll to determine the "margin of error". That way we can abstract away all the other fuzzy factors like "do any of the noncombatant leaf-nin have SC" or "exact chakra regen rate at any given hour" or "how many clone hours the sannin are willing to commit to being capacitors".

If you want the QMs to see this you pretty much have to ping them.

18scsc · Tuesday at 8:05 PM

18scsc said:
Bump.

Tbh we don't need an exact amount. IC the question might be "do you use all the chakra for So100 at once, like a normal jutsu?" and then "will you need to refill after using So100, or do you have enough reserves to be fully combat ready directly after casting the buff?"

I understand that chakra regeneration isn't constant, and that other characters don't have the spreadsheet vision necessary to be perfect chakra capacitors.

My thought is that we can just establish a common sense baseline for what sort of order of magnitude is possible. Aka "we can feasibly get 13k CP out of using shadow clones as capacitors" and then you guys can just roll to determine the "margin of error". That way we can abstract away all the other fuzzy factors like "do any of the noncombatant leaf-nin have SC" or "exact chakra regen rate at any given hour" or "how many clone hours the sannin are willing to commit to being capacitors".

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Just a suggestion to reduce spoon usage!

faflec · Tuesday at 8:15 PM