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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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we should brainstorm with the team whether fighting akatsuki is worth it, or whether to do something else like diplomacy. and if we do diplomacy, brainstorming how to persuade the other actors like oro tsunade naruto leaf to go along with it.

edit: also we have leverage with our runes. oro thought his odds of succeeding alone were low. we can force the others to go along with our diplomacy demands to some degree or else we withhold our support for the assault
 
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roobee said:
we should brainstorm with the team whether fighting akatsuki is worth it, or whether to do something else like diplomacy. and if we do diplomacy, brainstorming how to persuade the other actors like oro tsunade naruto leaf to go along with it.
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What's the point in Brainstorming with them ? It's not like they're going to suggest ideas or do relevant things on their own.

I say this not just because of past events, but also because the QMs don't like when we just ask NPCs to do things for us. The quest is a game, and simulationism must sometimes take a back seat to ensuring player agency.
 
T_of_A said:
because the QMs don't like when we just ask NPCs to do things for us
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What is the precise feeling? Do you have a quote? If they merely dislike instead of forbid, then a high stakes situation sounds like exactly the situation where the difference matters.

T_of_A said:
simulationism must sometimes take a back seat to ensuring player agency.
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i oppose this philosophy
Buggy said:
I think we're way past the point of diplomacy with Akatsuki. Comically so.
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i disagree. better late than never.
 
Also why are we lore updating? This isn't exactly a decision that requires a bunch of time for deliberation. The only benefit is if we got a lore update that gave us actionable information, which is... statistically unlikely.

roobee said:
i disagree. better late than never.
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1: Decisions have inertia. We are very firmly on the 'murderize Akatsuki' track.
2: Getting Leaf to negotiate is a absolute non-starter because Akatsuki murdered a Hokage in broad daylight.
3: Oro would only go for it if there was a solid argument for it, which i'm not seeing.
4: What would even be the line of negotiation? We're trying to ambush them, not like we can go "You should surrender because otherwise we'll ambush and kill you".
 
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I haven't even read the @Noumero plan, I trust him that much

[ ] Action Plan: Snuncle Warcrimes Experiences the Consequences of His Actions

EDIT: Unvoted, but not because I read it and didn't like it. Great plan, just has some concerns that aren't being addressed.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Snuncle Warcrimes Experiences the Consequences of His Actions
Noumero said:
  • Eventually, Hazou's interested in exchanging additional binding promises (via oaths in front of Boss Summons, or something more robust) to lessen the long-term tensions between us runecrafters. Spitballing:
    • Hazou promises never to act against Orochimaru with lethal intent if Orochimaru promises not to interfere with Hazou's growth in power.
    • Hazou promises to freely share all rune designs in perpetuity if Orochimaru stops experimenting on sapient beings (by, say, creating non-sapient substitutes).
    • Etc.
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I like the spirit, but I don't think this is something that can be accomplished with just a few lines. Orochimaru is famously of the opinion that no two immortals can truly coexist with each other, that values differences will inevitably bring them into conflict, and I think that's going to be relevant here too. If his baseline expectation is that "long-term" invariably means either he or us is dead, we'll be fighting an uphill battle to convince him that compromises like these meant to foster long-term coexistence are worthwhile.

Personally, though, I think we can still put something somewhat similar here. In this chapter Orochimaru sees very clearly how his biosealing abilities make common-sense cooperation hard. This would not be as much the case if Hazou was himself a biosealer and capable of counteracting or at least detecting malfeseance in times of cooperation. We can handle the hard part ourselves, but we could use this to ask for permission to learn biosealing from one of his minions after this is over.

Or, of course, you could double down on this angle while we have him in the room. Just, we'll probably need a more complete argument to convince him.
 
[x] Action Plan: Snuncle Warcrimes Experiences the Consequences of His Actions
[X] Action Plan: Get the Bioseal, Already
[x] Bioseals: Yes
[x] Action Plan: Yes, We Thought Last Plan (Already Voted In) Would Result in Bioseals. Go get Bioseals!
[x] Lore Update

They just said "Ah yes but have you considered the snake guy is scary and evil?" but in their own words over the course of an entire conversation. The QMs have said its not signposting or sockpuppeting or anything like that.

We already know the snake guy is scary and evil, so theres no new information there. Let's not relitigate this shit in parliament for the 20000th time.
 
Buggy said:
1: Decisions have inertia. We are very firmly on the 'murderize Akatsuki' track.
2: Getting Leaf to negotiate is a absolute non-starter because Akatsuki murdered a Hokage in broad daylight.
3: Oro would only go for it if there was a solid argument for it, which i'm not seeing.
4: What would even be the line of negotiation? We're trying to ambush them, not like we can go "You should surrender because otherwise we'll ambush and kill you".
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1. I don't think we are actually that firm on the track. We went missing nin to improve our power. And to kill akatsuki yes, but if we don't kill them the runes still improve our power. And socially ninja expect the people who diplomacy with them to want to kill them anyway. The major villages with each other. The major villages and Akatsuki. Leaf and Akatsuki after they killed hokage/kakuzu.
For inertia, situations change. New information and context is obtained. Even failing to obtain new information that one was hoping to obtain but did not expect is an update (such as researching a rune giving high odds of beating akatsuki, and minimal consequences from failure). One should be adaptable.
Yes there is a factor to consider to not just flip flop on strategic goals between every voting cycle.
But I think in this context it is reasonable to at least discuss and brainstorm and think about whether fighting Akatsuki is worth it. The pros and cons. To think of what alternative options there are. IC. I'm not sure how much we did that OOC either. Originally the research mission was to see if we could make runes that would make fighting akatsuki worth it, not a committment to fight Akatsuki no matter what. Then Naruto told us to go missing-nin, and I don't know how much we just went with the flow on that. Now we have made runes, but I don't know if there was a discussion on if we have made enough runes.
2. Leaf is part of AMITY. They have not gone on a war with Akatsuki without us. They refrain from attacking the other major villages who are their mortal enemies. Tsunade previously thought it was suicidal to attack Akatsuki. If we can convince them negotiation is necessary for survival, then it's doable.
3. I dunno if you saw my edit. But we can require our support for the assault to depend on trying diplomacy first. We can say Leaf might not be willing to support us, if failure means their destruction. We can say that diplomacy can get him a better chance of what he wants (if we can convince him that the odds of Pain following AMITY instead of doing another moon plan. Is better than the risk of him failing the assault, Leaf getting nuked. And after his immortality resurrects him it's just Oro alone against Akatsuki).
4. The point is to brainstorm. One can't expect to have a great plan before putting any effort into it. But we could say we will tell the other major villages that Akatsuki is gonna monopolize an afterlife rift. We could say if leaf attacks them they would obviously offer the other villages whatever they want to support Akatsuki. So why not skip that and just offer Leaf whatever it wants for cooperating with Akatsuki? We could say if they preemptively kill Leaf, we will tell the other villages what Akatsuki has done. And if they instead increase their security in preparation for an attack. Leaf can delay it for a while. And that extra preparation means Akatsuki has less manpower for searching the rift, making it taking longer to find Pain. A longer chance for Pain to dissolve. Leaf could offer it's own manpower to help find Pain. Or to convince the afterlife inhabitants to share information about Pain, with the idea that everyone is united and on the same side after death. It looks a lot different to the afterlife people if a coalition of people are trying to resurrect people. Instead of the old factional loyalties.
 
Trying to negotiate with Akatsuki less than a week before a planned ambush to try to kill as many of them as possible in a single strike, when they're on the verge of resurrecting their leader, and everyone involved hates each other to insane degrees does not seem like a feasible idea
 
Boop.

RandomOTP said:
[X] Action Plan: Get the Bioseal, Already
Words: tbd
  • Team (skippable if QMs prefer)
    • Mari, you've said you're unable to model or predict whether or not Orochimaru is likely to betray us.
    • Kei, we had to have Mio as a concubine because you couldn't model your own social prowess, relative to Mio's. Further, if Mari cannot model Orochimaru, how can we reasonably expect you to?
      • Besides, it's this, or unveil some of our stronger Runes (allude to Stormcaller/Superchiller) to the Akatsuki, Orochimaru, and the world at large. Which presents an existential threat, compared to a mere personal threat. We prefer the latter, rather than the former.
    • Noburi, you're chronically terrified of Orochimaru, to the point where you refused a power-up we'd bought from him. It's reasonable and understandable (we had to help Orochimaru butcher Noda), but this also means your judgement is compromised on the risk/reward ratio.
    • Kagome, we love you and respect you, but what other choice do we have? If we fail, here, the Akatsuki rule the world, and control the afterlife. Can you honestly say they would be kindly stewards of mankind? They, who called Orochimaru "the best of them," and are willing companions to the likes of Hidan?
      • If this bioseal makes our chances of success the smallest bit more likely, how can we refuse? What other option do we have? It's do or die, but worse, because failing means the Akatsuki rule everything and everyone, forever.
    • We cannot and will not ask you to undergo the same procedure, but this is our decision.
  • Go over Orochimaru's runes, get the bioseals, use clones to make runic blanks and RRBs/Force Claws for allied combatants/summons who don't have an equivalent buff.
  • Go over tactics with teammates (goal: create relevant aspect to tag during fight).
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Sir Stompy said:
Test if Noburi can sense a Capacitor as a valid draining target with the VD. Do NOT drain it. Treat it like a Summon. Environmental chakra very likely contains nature chakra.
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Noburi cannot sense the Capacitor as a valid draining target.

Sir Stompy said:
Did Hazou mention the blood-bioseal at all to the team? How do they think we should handle that? Hope Hidan is asleep and doesn't notice us? Hope that it's not passive and he has to be actively hunting? It looked like a sense of smell when he was accusing Asuma -- that doesn't bode well for it not being passive.
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When Hazou later mentions the blood-cleaning bioseal, the team agrees that this is more important than the reserves-enhancing bioseal, though still not worth dying over. They have some ideas:
  • Use this as an opportunity to lure Hidan out.
  • Take the full-Leaf assault route, in which Akatsuki will be forewarned anyway.
  • Just don't use Hazou's runes in the attack, and rely on the S-rankers + summons + S-rank SCs.
They're not sure if these are good ideas, but it's better than Hazou getting full-Orochimaru'd.
 
Paperclipped said:
Use this as an opportunity to lure Hidan out.
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And split priority on the "secure the Rift" objective?

Paperclipped said:
Take the full-Leaf assault route, in which Akatsuki will be forewarned anyway.
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And leave Leaf empty?

Paperclipped said:
Just don't use Hazou's runes in the attack, and rely on the S-rankers + summons + S-rank SCs.
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Voluntarily cripple our chances at winning?

Sir Stompy said:
Amazing how they can be so fucking useless. A talent of theirs
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Big mood.

Kei's contribution has been "Maybe do something other than explosives" and "please promise me, right here and now, that you won't use your best/easiest trump card. No, I won't provide suggestions for alternatives."
 
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