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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Banger update. It's going to make it incredibly fucking traumatizing even Orochimaru inevitably betrays us.

A question:
Paperclipped said:
"Well… there was one thing," Hazou said. "I explained that I got permission to summon Cannai, and that I just don't have the chakra reserves to do it."
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Isn't this more like two things, with the second thing being 'oh yeah and also we need to take a seperate bioseal to keep us safe from Hidan, who will totally sniff us out if we get within a few miles of the Rift otherwise'?

I think one of the most compelling arguments in favour of the chakra system bioseal is that we're effectively forced to take one, so we might as well double up. Am I wrong about it being a forced play? Is there any way we can carry out the planned assault with our normal blood in our body?
 
[] Lore Update

Voting Lore Update for now since there are some QM questions pending and I want to hear the answers first.

EDIT: Paper asked for the question on Discord

Sir Stompy said:
We don't even know if they're valid draining targets. I ain't doing shit about this until we do.


I can put "check if Capacitor is a valid draining target" in the plan.


EDIT: In my infinite wisdom, I already did this:




@eaglejarl, @Velorien @Paperclipped


What were the results of this test? (Good thing it's retroactive, so we already know Noburi lived eh?)
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Sir Stompy said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped


Did Hazou mention the blood-bioseal at all to the team? How do they think we should handle that? Hope Hidan is asleep and doesn't notice us? Hope that it's not passive and he has to be actively hunting? It looked like a sense of smell when he was accusing Asuma -- that doesn't bode well for it not being passive.
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Paperclipped said:
If I had to put her somewhere, it would probably be the grave,
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Many such cases.

Paperclipped said:
Mari shrugged. "Biosealer, so she's insane.
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Paperclipped said:
"He's a biosealer," Kagome-sensei said, as if that were argument enough. "He's insane.
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They are not going to take it well when we learn biosealing.

Paperclipped said:
Look at the Great Prophet – he loves killing more than anyone, but he still doesn't kill the other members of Akatsuki.
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That's because he's a pussy, Yuno.

Paperclipped said:
Cannai knows of many of Kakashi's summons. Given the time of night, no dogs were available immediately. Hazou can return to try to convince them tomorrow. Cannai will introduce you and can speak to the importance of your task (i.e. that even Cannai himself is willing to be summoned), but won't compel or push any dog to fight for you.
  • He notes that many of these dogs had an intense personal loyalty to Kakashi (for some, even greater than their loyalty to the Alpha), and may instinctively dislike Hazou because he doesn't fit the same mold as Kakashi did.
  • Additionally, these dogs are all fighting hard in the war against Leopard, and may prioritize fighting in the war they can see, smell, and hear over fighting in a war that, to them, is distant and less important. Cannai asks that you not think less of them for prioritizing in this way.
  • Cannai notes that Hazou's support of Dog via running instant-messages in the last few months would earn him some credit. Left unsaid is the fact that Hazou, not fitting the same mold as Kakashi, hasn't substantially fought on Dog's behalf, and that this might count against him.
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Does the fact that we're avenging Kakashi's death matter to any of them?
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Did Hazou mention the blood-bioseal at all to the team? How do they think we should handle that? Hope Hidan is asleep and doesn't notice us? Hope that it's not passive and he has to be actively hunting? It looked like a sense of smell when he was accusing Asuma -- that doesn't bode well for it not being passive.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
Does Snake touch Leopard? Orochimaru totally owns Manda and could probably be convinced to make life very difficult for the Leopards.
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Snake is on an island off the coast of Turtle (it shares the island with Boar). To get from Turtle to Leopard you'd have to either route through Pangolin or Rat. Alternatively, since Leopard has a coastline you could in theory travel by boat from Snake to Leopard, though it would still be a long trip.
 
One way or another, we need a bioseal (chakra bioseal or anti-Hidan bioseal). I get where the party is coming from, but there's no other option.

(If Snowflake thinks Hazou is committing suicide via Orochimaru, maybe she'll finally make a move :V)
 
Can't tell if QM signposting "do not do this," or if the team is just scared of Snake Boogeyman, and needs us to tap the "Akatsuki are about to win everything" sign :V
 
Has Oro ever lied to us or told anyone a lie that we know of? My gut says Oro's a straightforward autist that hates social interactions and especially, especially hates social games such as lying and deceit with the burning passion of a thousand suns. (and he's also a crazy evil pycho, but that goes without saying) He's been very, very direct in the past and commented on how he vastly prefers that and kinda hated how Hazo even sorta questioned his word at some point. To Oro, it seems words should mean something. If he promises he's not gonna booby trap the bioseal, I'm pretty down to trust him here. Social deception and deceit doesn't seem to be Oro's style. For example, during this conversation, if Oro was planning on betraying us, he would have had to have that idea in his head, while simultaneously talking and acting like he's not gonna do it, and have to continually pull it off flawlessly for not only Hazo, but his family who has a social spec for (probably) multiple days.

For example:
Paperclipped said:
Incidentally, regarding bioseals: if I am to accept a loss of secrecy with respect to my reserves-enhancing bioseals, I will commit fully to using them against Akatsuki. If the Pangolin or Arachnid summoners would benefit from having their chakra systems expanded, I will perform the procedure for them as well. Specifically, I suspect the Arachnid summoner could secure Kumokougou's contract, as the Arachnid Empress has appeared rather pliable historically.
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Here Oro bring up how he's willing to chip in for the good of the cause. If you're lying or plan to backstab, you don't "innocently" muse that you can go bioseal Hazo's family as well. That suspicious as f*ck! If you're lying, you want to try and divert attention AWAY from the thing you're lying/scheming to do! Paradoxically you only bring that idea up if you're honest.


What's more likely (bayesian)

Oro (sneaky motherf*cker gonna dead switch Hazo, good at lying)

H: "Yeah, I'm thinking of using your super dangerous bioseal for chakra."
O: I gotta get this kid under the knife to trap him, what should I say to get him to agree. He's currently suspicious so let's throw him off the case. How should I do it... Hmm....
O: Yes! And we should it with your Family to! Let's do it with everyone! *evil cackling*
H: "Uhh....WTF??"


Oro (innocent autist, just wants to solve problems and genuinely help)
H: "Yeah, I'm thinking of using your bioseal for chakra."
O: We gotta beat Akasuki, our odds don't look good. Hmm How can we increase our power quickly....
O: "Yeah. That's a good idea. Hmm... Since it's such a good idea... Hmmm.... Is there anyone else I can use them with? To help out the team? It's very potent with summoners... Do we have any it would help with?"


Thoughts?


I think a promise from Oro's probably good enough (high-ish 90% Oro plays us straight, is my gut check), and if we're normal paranoid, we can have Mari be there to check if he's lying.
 
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If a bioseal is inevitably necessary, then we need a way to compel Orochimaru not to do anything bad to us. We don't have anyone who could check his work, so we'd need something sufficiently dangerous to him or his goals that even a small risk of being caught wouldn't be worth it. And getting rid of the only other person with runes is worth a lot, so...
 
Idea: lie.

Tell Orochimaru that Kagome knows about runecrafting (true), that he's paranoid (true), that he hates Orochimaru and thinks he can't be trusted (true), and that Kagome can learn runecrafting from Hazo's notes and observations during the months we've been together (maybe true? probably false mechanically). Finally wrap all those points up together to have Kagome sit out of the final battle and act as a runic dead man's switch, rediscovering runecrafting and intentionally spreading it to leaf and any living Goketsu (mega false) as a deliberate fuck you to Orochimaru if Hazo dies.

'but Hazo can't lie worth a damn!' you'll say. And yes, that's true.
'But how would we even present this information without being incredibly offensive?' some of you might ask. Fair point.

So Hazo doesn't actually say this. Or rather, he'll say only the true parts, in a sort of 'I collaberated with Kagome during my research trip, he knows about the great seal, etc sorry for not immediately letting you know he knows about runecrafting if you weren't already aware' way. Then when Hazo goes under surgery, Noburi is there to observe, and additionally Mari is there dropping hints that Kagome feels he can't contribute to the last battle, can't trust anybody and has instead decided to hide away for some reason, working on some important research thing.

Mari doesn't have to admit to knowing about runes, that part is handled. She just has to talk about how the paranoid Kagome absolutely doesn't want to get any surgery done, and has instead gone into hiding. If Orochimaru isn't smart enough to put the pieces together from there, Mari can gently lead him to the correct answers.

Yes yes the Qm's don't think we can or are willing to spread runecrafting through notes. That's the point of lying.


And thus, the value in immediately assassinating Hazo to protect the secret of runecrafting is lessened.

Since I know a bunch of you want to get the seal anyways, this could at the very least help our sanity checkers stomach the idea, if nothing else.
 
[x] Action Plan: Snuncle Warcrimes Experiences the Consequences of His Actions
Word count: <500
  • Meet with Orochimaru, as a SC. Topic: a complication regarding bioseals.
  • Preparations:
    • The others travel several kilometers in an arbitrary direction, only return if Hazou gives an all-clear via the Seventh Path.
      • If Hazou doesn't report/reports days later, assume he's dead/compromised.
      • If Hazou couldn't reach a deal without the EM deadman's switch, Mari doesn't return. She lays low for weeks/months. If Leaf wins, but she learns of Hazou's death, lack of public appearances, or out-of-character behavior, she proliferates EM-nuke knowledge.
    • Stress-test Hazou's negotiating position with the team. Ensure it's logically sound, consistent, dispassionate.
    • If useful, take Toad/Arachnid/Pangolin Summons as witnesses.
  • Tone: Pragmatic yet cooperative.
    • Hazou's actions aren't motivated by fear/hate towards Orochimaru. We're agents with misaligned goals, not volatile humans.
    • Hazou's eager to work with Orochimaru to move past this mutually-inconvenient conundrum, and bears no ill will.
  • Points:
    • Orochimaru may expect Hazou, as a runecrafter, to eventually become a credible threat to him. And currently, he may view him as a runecrafting-infosec risk.
    • Orochimaru's skilled enough to implant a delayed-action kill-switch into Hazou, alongside other bioseals, or give him a lethal disease. Per above, doing that is arguably optimal for Orochimaru once Hazou's help against the Akatsuki is unneeded.
    • How can the situation be changed such that doing it is no longer Orochimaru-optimal?
  • Preliminary ideas: (Assess their sufficiency with the team first; include their analyses. These ideas are likely insufficient.)
    • We exfiltrate Tsunade ASAP. Orochimaru swears to her that he intends no foul play, and/or she oversees Hazou's surgery.
    • Orochimaru swears, in front of Summons (including Snakes; preferably Manda) that he intends no foul play, with stakes (his Summoner status?).
    • Hazou can set up a deadman's switch which would cause consequences that'd be worse for Orochimaru than Hazou's continued existence. (Don't share the details.)
      • Highly suboptimal. Ideally, we avoid this.
  • BATNA: Assault proceeds without Cannai. We hope Hidan is asleep/absent/outranged/has blood-sense deactivated.
    • Arguably, Hazou should get bioseals even if he expects Orochimaru to kill him, because preventing the Akatsuki's victory is worth Hazou's death.
    • Hazou disagrees. He considers it possible that if Orochimaru monopolizes runecrafting and the rift, he'll turn the world into his torture-Basement.
    • Not because he's "evil", but because it might be optimal for getting more research done. He has demonstrated complete indifference to his subjects' suffering.
    • That's in-expectation worse than the Akatsuki's victory, or extinction. (If Orochimaru reveals new information about the Akatsuki's supposedly-nightmarish final goals, distrust it.)
 
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Sir Stompy said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Did Hazou mention the blood-bioseal at all to the team? How do they think we should handle that? Hope Hidan is asleep and doesn't notice us? Hope that it's not passive and he has to be actively hunting? It looked like a sense of smell when he was accusing Asuma -- that doesn't bode well for it not being passive.
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It's fully possible that Hidan can only track the last blood sample he tasted, and his power dosen't even work on Hazou anymore.
Failing that, it's a question of if Hidan will be awake, in-range, and (if non-passive) using his powers. this would be a matter of luck, but it's between the two high priests of Jashin, one of who seems easily-moved by Jashin, so it's really up to Jashin's will. last time we measured Jashins favour, it came up 2:1 in Hazou's favour, but opinions may differ on which way it's shifted since then.

And hey, if we fail, the Akatsuki will still have to assault *our* setup position, instead of vice-versa, so we won't have to deal with most of Sasori's tricks and seals.


It's also notable that Oro initially assumed Hazou!prime was unwilling to even stand near Oro or take packages from him, but still was down to spend a fuckload of chakra attempting massed RER barrages. That implies he's reasonably optimistic about our chances of not getting autodetected by Hidan.
Paperclipped said:
Given that you apparently do not want to risk your Prime body, I presume such methods as 'your clone takes storage seals to Prime' would be ruled out, given that it would expose Prime's location to me. I can instead store the stone on the Seventh Path and dispense it once we are on-site to your shadow clones shaping the runes.
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In conclusion: say no to bioseals, praise Jashin, and chance the assault.
 
Noumero said:
Ideas:
  • We exfiltrate Tsunade ASAP and she oversees Hazou's surgery.
  • Orochimaru summons Manda and has him swear that, if Manda learns information that makes him strongly suspect that Orochimaru caused Hazou's death, Manda would revoke Orochimaru's Summoner status, and the Snakes would devote major resources towards killing him.
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These lack bite.

last time we suggested Tsunade supervision, our sanity checkers suspected that Oro could sneak malfeasent surgery elements by her. circumstances might make it harder this time, but it's still not that trustworthy.

Oro could accept losing the snake contract as price for eliminating Hazou, or assassinate him in a way that dosne't implicate him, or slaughter all of uplift so there is no one left to try to tell Manda, or....

In general, the ideas suggested here shouldn't be considered sufficient, and I'd like the plan to say as much.

Also, it might be worth saying that if Oro can't propose a plausible solution(ie. potentially functional according to our sanity-checkers), just summon Cannai. It'll be EJ's update, and you'd make him so happy.
 
[X] Action Plan: D.A.R.E. To Say No To Ninja Drugs and Bioseals
Word count: <199
Duration: a day or two. (until Hazou has sufficiently practiced his runes, and Oro has made ample substrate for the assault)
  • Summon Cannai
    • Rejoice!
    • Cannai best boi
  • Tell Orochimaru(Via Hazou or Mari SC) that none of Uplift will be getting biosealed
    • Give whatever justification/explanation Mari suggests
    • We'll just have to chance that Hidan won't get detect us.
      • If he does, at least they'll need to engage our position rather than hunkering down behind Sasori's doom fortress
    • Have a dog pick up the sealing scrolls full of substrate from Oro and run them to a distant pickup spot.
      • a Mariclone can visit Oro and verify that he isn't tailing.
  • Practice runecrafting
  • Talk to the dogs Cannai recommended
  • Research:
    • If Hazou has enough chakra, no-prep DoB Kagome's Tears and KISS
  • At end of the update, we should be ready to contact Leaf and begin the Riftwar
 
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[x] Action Plan: Snuncle Warcrimes Experiences the Consequences of His Actions

@Noumero, I'd prefer if we never even threatened to kill him in the long term. We should be focusing on things like "my survival is bad for the secrecy of runecrafting, which incentivizes you to kill me". Or perhaps even "in the long term, the success (or pursuit) of world peace and Uplift will obviously make it harder for you to procure disposable biosealing substrate. How do I stop this from incentivizing you to kill me ?"

EDIT:
Buggy said:
Does... does that work?
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Probably not, no. There has been no confirmation that it'll work, and there have been hints that it won't (during the leadup to the latest ACE ruling).
We last tried when our CR score was very slightly lower. We didn't get any kind of 'you were very close' hint either, it's pure hopium at this point.
 
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Left-Hand Mutant said:
In general, the ideas suggested here shouldn't be considered sufficient, and I'd like the plan to say as much.
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T_of_A said:
@Noumero, I'd prefer if we never even threatened to kill him in the long term. We should be focusing on things like "my survival is bad for the secrecy of runecrafting, which incentivizes you to kill me". Or perhaps even "in the long term, the success (or pursuit) of world peace and Uplift will obviously make it harder for you to procure disposable biosealing substrate. How do I stop this from incentivizing you to kill me ?"
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Solid points, done.
 
T_of_A said:
We last tried when our CR score was very slightly lower. We didn't get any kind of 'you were very close' hint either, it's pure hopium at this point.
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Actually, we did.
eaglejarl said:
Author's Note, part deux: Before Hazō went to bed, he tried summoning Cannai using chakra overdraw plus a chakra overcharge from Noburi. It did not work, although maybe it was close? He's not sure. Could have been wishful thinking.
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Didn't Mari just recently say that she was unable to model Orochimaru? Why should we take her word on this, when she's just admitted that she's not able to predict Orochimaru?

Noburi's always been cowardly, in this regard. He's always been terrified of Orochimaru, to the point where he refused the power up we bought for him. I'm not trusting his word on this.

Kei's social skills are murky as heck. We ended up with Mio as a concubine because Kei wasn't able to model her own abilities, and "succeeded too hard." Honestly, this reads as another stereotypical "Kei yells at Hazou" chapter.

And Kagome's paranoia led him to nearly kill Leaf citizens practically every time he left the estate. To the point where EJ said on Discord that, if not for the Yamanaka helping our reputation, Kagome's paranoia (among other reasons) would have caused Home Defense to turn out differently.

In a retracted update, Kagome made an Anti-Ami seal to soothe his paranoia over what she might do. When Kei brought her mute lover over to meet the family (without warning her about said family, which is further emblematic of my hesitancy to trust Kei's ability to model people), Kagome was unable to understand why asking a trauma victim about their trauma was bad. We had to explain it to him in one of our "Hazou spends three updates apologizing to everyone" moments.

We've also been told, by the QMs themselves, that social ineptitude has become a "core part of Kagome's character,' and that he will be unable change that ineptitude --despite wanting to, and despite a social spec jonin being willing to teach him. Due to this, I don't trust Kagome's opinion.

If the QMs are trying to signpost "this is a bad idea" (which I'm not sure that they are), then they should just tell us, directly. I've been given enough reasons to doubt Team Uplift's take, here.

[X] Lore Update

(Disclaimer: Hella sick, please excuse any SPaG errors)
 
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