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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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GlassOlive said:
I also think people overstate the value of life because they're scared of what comes next. Additionally, if you're like the majority of the world and believe in an afterlife, eternal life is preventing you from heaven. Then there's overpopulation problems, resource hoarding, etc.
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Overpopulation and resource hoarding are not really a concern if you take a realistic assessment of the situation.

Plus, eternal life or existence of an afterlife aren't really systems people think seriously about. Humanity for the most part do not act based on first principle or systematic examination of their life.

GlassOlive said:
I personally have no desire to live forever, and I'll acknowledge the collorary of that - I would want to die at some point. This does not preclude wanting to have a long happy successful fulfilling complete life and so forth, and doesn't mean I look forward to death, just that based off of the above and personal beliefs, I don't want to live forever.
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Do you ask yourself where you will go to the restroom fifty years from now? It's a nonsensical question to contemplate. Ditto for 'long happy successful fulfilling complete life'.

You just live your life, same as everyone else.
 
I think it's likely that Leaf had an Immortality/rez project going on. If nothing else, Leaf probably started one after Pain rezed the Akatsuki, proving it was possible. That said, I'd rather not go to Asuma until we have something more definitive than our word.
 
RandomOTP said:
I think it's likely that Leaf had an Immortality/rez project going on. If nothing else, Leaf probably started one after Pain rezed the Akatsuki, proving it was possible. That said, I'd rather not go to Asuma until we have something more definitive than our word.
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Bear in mind that Leaf's resurrection program is probably Orochimaru plus anyone who actually had enough data already to be interesting to him (read: Kabuto).
 
So do we have literally any idea what to do in character about this deadline thing?
 
Everyone's currently run the broad clan warfare plans. There's still the fight prep that I think we need to actually put time into, in and out of character (and still wishing we could bring Mari out, especially with recent affirmation of her skills).

Um, otherwise I'm uncertain. We could make a big public thing about asking them to officiate, and make it look bad on them when they say no, but between Isan being need-to-know, and the chances of them doubling down right now,I doubt it would get us anywhere.

We should think of alternatives, if we can't get them to rescind their ban by beating them (either if they refused to, or we don't win).
 
faflec said:
There was a discussion on triggering the Hagoromo Reformation, do we want to look at that?
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My problem is mostly that FMPOV, Yuno and Noburi must be married within 7 days, and it is expected that a Hagoromo officiates.

How do we thread the needle on this, then?
 
firestorm440 said:
*blink*

Sorry, I think I'm missing something. Was that a joke, or was there actually something in the narrative suggesting...?
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Velorien said:
"The surest path to survival, if not victory, is to refuse combat. The Hagoromo can effect this with the aid of the one resource you cannot assail, their religious authority. 'The Will of Fire is above the petty insults of lesser men', perhaps, or 'The Will of Fire forbids violence between fellow ninja in pursuit of earthly goals'. Correctly presented, it could even be an opening for a counterattack. Who would reduce a far-reaching moral dispute to a base contest of fists but a foreigner unfit for Leaf society?

"However, no problem is so complicated that it does not have a simple solution. If the enemy is strong on the defence, compel them to attack. In other words, seduce Hagoromo's daughter. The younger one, I mean. She's pretty cute. You're not her type, but if between me and Mari we can't turn you into the second coming of Jiraiya, I'll buy and eat a hat, and you know I don't buy stuff. Seduce her, dump her, boast about it in public. Bonus points, talk about what a bad lay she was—probably is; with a dad like that, I'll bet anything she's a virgin—whether you bedded her or not.
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RandomOTP said:
Not willing. A bad rep means promoting uplift will be seen as hypocrisy at best, and people will work against it just to spite us at worst.
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I'm not going to push this a ton (spoons have been at zero for last two weeks) but uplift ultimately isn't going to be spread through persuasive arguments. We are going to force people to take it when we have a sword to their throat. So a reputation as an asshole who will do whatever it takes to win is better for that strategy than being a goodie-goodie
 
RandomOTP said:
Not willing. A bad rep means promoting uplift will be seen as hypocrisy at best, and people will work against it just to spite us at worst.
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While it's not something I want to make a habit of, we have a deadline coming up. So far we've done a good job of making the Hagoromo more desparate, now we need to figure out how to take advantage of that by making them want this to just end or through a rigged bet of some sort. The fight is a good idea in principle because the clan head is an arrogant jonin who absolutely will think he could win, but if we're not confident we can out-prepare enough to guarantee a win, we should explore other options.

One of them is meeting with Lord Hagoromo because that'll give us a good pulse on the situation. We're running very low on time here and I'm not seeing a good path other than meet with him -> try to convince him -> he won't be convinced -> provoke him -> fight -> cheat -> win -> success.

Again, these are good procedures for destroying a clan, less so for convincing a clan to do what you want.
 
[X] Action Plan: I dunno man its a title

Talk to clan about the current status of things for a couple hours. Direct actions as necessary.

  • Mari
    • It would be ideal if you could sow maximum chaos—focused on those most deserving— and aid in accelerating the timetable.
      • We need Lord Hag gritting his teeth and marrying Yuno and Noburi within the week.
    • Simultaneously, it would be beneficial if they are too distracted to worry about "the spar".
      • Find out if there any weddings we could ruin/co-opt/scheme/plot with, or any other religious ceremonies we could have blow up in their face.
  • Noburi
    • Clarification:We want you to form a contract with a single, very strong, Jonin-level toad. Like Pankurashun, but a step or two above in terms of skill. Use your best judgement in getting this done, consult with Gaku on the potential particulars before and the actual particulars after.
      • Ideally, they will be maximally useful in terms of dealing with Fire-ninjutsu users and protecting smartass little brothers from angry Jonin who have a bone to pick.
  • Hazo
    • Go to the 7th Path for an afternoon and practice a bit with your summons. Get an idea of their capabilities and techniques.
 
We could meet with him, pretending that if he just agrees to the wedding we'll stop the war. It'd be an utter lie, of course, but I don't think he would really have means to call us out over it. It'd be accusing us on reneging on a backroom deal about a clan war that he has no proof we're executing.

The tricky part is that we'd need to win a Deceit roll in order to convince him we're being honest about it when that's very much not the case, so we might need to rely on Mari to sell it.

It's an option.
 
[X]Action Plan: Eldritch Cooperation:
Wordcount: 288

  • Ami
    • Does she know why you were angry?
      • Her answer is probably "emotion".
      • No, you got so angry because you understood her actions.
      • Actions show priorities, and her priorities are such that inflicting pain for her own plans was a negligible variable
        • A minimal decrease in efficiency for the emotional benefit of any of the Goketsu is simply not worth it.
        • What message does this send?
    • Normally it's ok. Because ninja. But she forgets the fact we're family
    • the relationship of "mutually beneficial relationship between two separated entities" is easy.
      • But we're not just that, otherwise things wouldn't be so difficult.
      • And ignoring this fact ends like this.
    • And yes, it's a pain. Welcome to the party.
    • Unless in her priorities we simply do not exist. In that case, it's just a matter of you giving misplaced trust.
    • Regardless, peace offerings:
      • Optimization projects to work on
      • A "Hazou-Optimization Coupon" to use in case one day she will finally decide to ask for help.
        • No treason,please.
  • MAKH(Mari-Ami-Keiko-Hazou) 1 Assemble:
    • Hagoromo
    • You propose to divide the Hagoromo, sway the clans members opinion to our side with:
      • The current Clan Head choices and lack of clear plan
      • Lost possibilities for profit(Monopoly on Printing Press + Monopoly on tradition =Hagoromo beliefs reach everywhere, even Mist)
      • plan: Leave Ritsuo with only his power as justification to control the clan
      • Just in time for a spar between him and three fresh chunins....
    • You leave the details on the how to the experts(Ami,Mari)
    • If approved, implement it.
    • Also, let's start the preparations for a paper marriage just in case.
    • Ami
      • If she wants to propose an optimization for her...project, she can.
        • We want her to alive and scary as ever
 
A suggestion:

We could pose to Mari the possibility of making 'The Hagoromo agree to make an exception for Noburi and Yuno' their side of the stakes of the duel. We don't have enough time to finish our campaign against the Hagoromo and properly break their spirit before the wedding needs to happen, and if we go bargain with the Hagoromo before it's done they'll know they have the upper hand (we really can't afford to walk away without their cooperation) and exploit that for all it's worth.

So instead, we make it the stakes of the duel, and put something suitably juicy up on our side, enough that they're willing to gamble away their trump card. And then we punch their lights out and win Noburi's marriage rights in a climactic resolution to this arc, and then finish off the Hagoromo at our leisure.

How's it sound?
 
[X] Action Plan: Answer Me, Mr. Hagoromo

IKR, titles are SO hard to come up with! QM's - how do you do it?

Edit: Is the above the proper way to vote? This is my first time :eek:
 
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Thinking out loud here:

The fundamental playing field here is the clan council - who are in turn affected by Leaf's cultural milieu. Our opposition is anti-gay sentiment, and our timeframe is one week - therefore for one week it should be easy enough to actively reframe the discussion.

I think a fruitful method of attack is an interrogation into why we are being blocked - and for that we've got to make people uncomfortable as hell about it. If we can make it too embarrassing to continue blocking us within the week, we may be able to force the Hagoromo's hands into officiating the marriage.

Therefore the key is to make [the Goketsu cannot be legally wed] embarrassing and emotionally difficult to hold as a position - and the method which might work is to bait the Hagoromo into a public debate about "what exactly I am being made to apologize for."

Deception? We did not deceive you about the parties being wed in a material fashion, did we?

The problem was that one of the married relationships were gay? What about that is a problem?

They aren't going to have children? It's been two months of tragedy and you think to shame them for that?

Keiko doesn't love Shikamaru? With all due respect, can you be certain that everyone you are wedding must absolutely love each other to go forward? Are you of all people going to tell me that with a straight face?

Extramarital relations? With all due respect, are you seriously telling me with a straight face that you take monogamy seriously enough to deny an entire clan marriages based solely on an unconfirmed rumor?

What is it, Mr. Hagoromo? What must I apologize to my ancestors for?

Oh? Jiraiya wasn't my father? That's a grave insult, and I demand recompense. I demand satisfaction.

[X] Action Plan: Answer Me, Mr. Hagoromo
Wordcount: 290
  1. If Mari has no objection to the plan and believes it will work, proceed.
  2. Setup
    1. Keep up the pressure. Continue making the Hagoromo live awkwardly and in constant risk of a new scandal breaking out.
    2. Hazou, personally, will go to the biggest shrine associated with marriages.
      1. There, he will ugly cry until the Hagoromo show up.
      2. The other clanmembers, inbetween their other duties, will spread word about this - although doing this strike in such a public space should spread word quickly enough.
    3. In between the ugly sobbing, regularly and loudly ask the ancestors why the Hagoromo will not let your pious clansmen marry his love.
    4. If someone asks us for a fuller story, present:
      1. Noburi has recently informed us about the Hagoromo refusing to marry him and Yuno until Hazou has publicly apologized.
      2. Hazou does not understand what he is apologizing for.
      3. The Hagoromo have not been willing to privately explain it
      4. So Hazou is crying before the ancestors for them to explain it.
  3. The Debate
    1. If we can successfully drag out a high-ranking Hagoromo who is trying to make this awkwardness stop, debate them.
    2. The key is to drill down every bit of their demands. Make them loudly and publicly justify blocking Goketsu marriages, and justify each chain of logic leading up there.
      1. Addendum: Weave in subtle and unspoken jabs throughout.
      2. By questioning everything, we should be able to create an opening for letting the marriage go through.
    3. The goal in this debate is to make the Hagoromo publicly either commit to letting the Noburi-Yuno marriage go through and humiliate them in public a bit - bonus points if we can get them to overstep and demand a duel to beat their faces in.
  4. If we succeed, cut to wedding.
 
[X] Action Plan: Thousand Sunny

Talk to clan about the current status of things for a couple hours. Direct actions as necessary.

  • Mari
    • Request an update on the current status of Clan Hag. How much more on fire do they have to be to marry Yuno and Nobs, do you guesstimate?
    • Consult with her on requesting Aunt Tsunade's aid on this matter (see below).
  • Noburi
    • Clarification:We want you to form a contract with a single, very strong, Jonin-level toad. Like Pankurashun, but a step or two above in terms of skill. Use your best judgement in getting this done, consult with Gaku on the potential particulars before and the actual particulars after.
      • Ideally, they will be maximally useful in terms of dealing with Fire-ninjutsu users and protecting smartass little brothers from angry Jonin who have a bone to pick.
  • Hazo
    • Go to the 7th Path for an afternoon and practice a bit with your summons. Get an idea of their capabilities and techniques.
Y'know what? This is bullshit.
(Do the following section if Mari signs off on it, include any input from the clan that she approves, etc.)

  • Bring everyone involved in this mess and go meet Tsunade-sensei. Workshop exact details with Mari, Noburi, Yuno, Akane, Kagome, etc. beforehand.
    • Summary: Yuno and Noburi both want and need to get married, within a week, for Leaf village reasons—Asuma can verify that bit— but Lord Hag is being a complete shit.
      • He wants an apology from us, essentially for Keiko being who she is. Absolutely fuck that. We certainly aren't backing down and apologizing to his ass, fuck that noise.
    • Stupid politics nonsense related to this aside that we don't really want to ask you to involve yourself in, would you mind being Scary Aunt Tsunade at Lord Hag for the sole purpose of getting this goddamn wedding to happen so that these two can be happily married?
      • This is, as far as we can tell, the simplest resolution to this whole mess.
    • If not, well, what would it take for you to do that? Honest question.
    • Whatever her response is, politely thank her for it and leave. Don't dally.
 
Supersuslik said:
[X] Action Plan: Answer Me, Mr. Hagoromo

IKR, titles are SO hard to come up with! QM's - how do you do it?

Edit: Is the above the proper way to vote? This is my first time :eek:
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Yes, that's correct, with the one exception that, according to SV, you voted for a plan before it came into existence. Time travel is frowned upon within voting procedure.
 
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