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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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firestorm440 said:
It reads as quite level-headed to me.
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Hm... just in case, I added some clarification. I have Hazou ask for some extremely general information about the Hagoromo. Since we're not asking for what Lord Hagoromo keeps hidden in his underwear drawer, I don't think it should take Gaku and Mari too long (an afternoon, at most?).

RandomOTP said:
[x] Action Plan: Blood and Wine
Words: TBD
  • Party Time: Celebrate Yuno and Noburi's pending nuptials
    • Invite normal Game Night attendants (plus Ami, Sasuke, Naruto, and anyone that Noburi and Yuno might want there)
    • Observe Isan traditions regarding seat placement, food, and decor, but try to keep the overall tone of the party informal and upbeat. Coordinate with Noburi and Mari accordingly
      • it's meant to be a surprise for Yuno, to show that we can incorporate her traditions, and that she won't have to abandon them just to be a Goketsu.
    • Introduce Ami and Yuno to each other
      • try to make them friends but don't force anything if they're not keen on it
    • Talk with Mari, commiserate/laugh about our family members' respective love lives (even our own)
  • Meet with Cannai's recommended summoners
    • This is a meeting between equals.
    • Be respectful but do not be submissive
    • Find out what would be required to make a contract with them
Offscreen
  • Order a huge bulk order of expensive wedding clothes (Isan-style fashion, as directed by Yuno) from the Hagoromo, ostensibly for Noburi and Yuno's wedding, but in reality for Keiko's hinted plan against the Hagoromo
  • Ask Mari and Gaku to begin investigating the Hagoromo.
    • What are they like as a clan, in broad strokes?
    • Is the clan, as a whole, as... zealous as their leader?
      • Are they like the Akimichi (generally friendly, with "traditional" values) or the Hyuuga (scornful bigots)
  • Have Gaku and Mari begin planning Noburi and Yuno's wedding
    • Setting a date, location, combining Isan and Leaf traditions, food, etc
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Oneiros said:
From my perspective we are going after an organization not any individual. We will not leave any one destitute or without prospects. There will be no murder or acts of violence against the Hags. We will just remove there ability to hurt people.
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But we don't know if the Clan Head's zealotry extends to the entire organization. For all Hazou knows, the Hagoromo Clan could be more similar to the Akimichi, rather than the Hyuuga. They could just have the misfortune to be led by an idiot who is both dogmatic and charismatic enough that the clan's elders were convinced that Lord Fuckface was the man for the job.

Think about it: the Leaf is in a very precarious position right now, their sense of military security is fragile, and the entire culture of Leaf is changing very much, very quickly. The Hagoromo Elders live in a strange, scary world where their home (Leaf) is becoming both unrecognizable and fragile. Then along comes a man speaking their language, promising a resurgence of their old, familiar ways, and a return to the strong, mighty Leaf of their youth. This man promises that he can fight for the core values of their clan against these outsiders who are weakening Leaf's way of life. The elders, confused by Leaf's new status quo and scared by Leaf's crippled military might, are persuaded by the young man's words and passion. Though they might not have originally been so zealous in their traditionalism, they are swayed into it. Does that make the young man right? No. Does this make the elder's justified in promoting hate? No. No, it's not excusable. But it's understandable how, what might've started as simple fear and concern, could be boiled into hate by someone seeking power.

But anyway, that's just conjecture. I suppose that it's equally likely that the entire Hagoromo clan could be filled with hate-consumed bigots that would rather Keiko live a life that kills her soul, instead of embracing her true self. I suppose that could be true. But we don't know. And, more importantly, Keiko should have a voice in this. Right now, we'd be going to war in defense of someone who never asked us to do so. Let's trust in Keiko, Hazou's sister and the slighted party here. Keiko asked us to buy some clothes from the Hagoromo, let's buy some clothes from the Hagoromo.
 
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RandomOTP said:
Hm... just in case, I added some clarification. I have Hazou ask for some extremely general information about the Hagoromo. Since we're not asking for what Lord Hagoromo keeps hidden in his underwear drawer, I don't think it should take Gaku and Mari too long (an afternoon, at most?).




But we don't know if the Clan Head's zealotry extends to the entire organization. For all Hazou knows, the Hagoromo Clan could be more similar to the Akimichi, rather than the Hyuuga. They could just have the misfortune to be led by an idiot who is both dogmatic and charismatic enough that the clan's elders were convinced that Lord Fuckface was the man for the job.

Think about it: the Leaf is in a very precarious position right now, their sense of military security is fragile, and the entire culture of Leaf is changing very much, very quickly. The Hagoromo Elders live in a strange, scary world where their home (Leaf) is becoming both unrecognizable and fragile. Then along comes a man speaking their language, promising a resurgence of their old, familiar ways, and a return to the strong, mighty Leaf of their youth. This man promises that he can fight for the core values of their clan against these outsiders who are weakening Leaf's way of life. The elders, confused by Leaf's new status quo and scared by Leaf's crippled military might, are persuaded by the young man's words and passion. Though they might not have originally been so zealous in their traditionalism, they are swayed into it. Does that make the young man right? No. Does this make the elder's justified in promoting hate? No. No, it's not excusable. But it's understandable how, what might've started as simple fear and concern, could be boiled into hate by someone seeking power.

But anyway, that's just conjecture. I suppose that it's equally likely that the entire clan could be filled with hate-filled bigots that would rather Keiko live a life that kills her soul, instead of embracing her true self. I suppose that could be true. But we don't know. And, more importantly, Keiko should have a voice in this. Right now, we'd be going to war in defense of someone who never asked us to do so. Let's trust Keiko, the slighted party here. She asked us to buy some clothes from the Hagoromo, let's buy some clothes from the Hagoromo.
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I'm gonna level with you. I am an out trans woman living in the south. Everything that the Hagoromo are doing are things that have happened to me. I don't particularly want to have to fight the same type of bigots who want me dead in my entertainment and my real life but here we are. I have personally seen what the strategies of compromise and appeasement will get us. I want to take a stand and do what will work.

I'm also very stressed because my work got shut down because of COVID and I might be infected. As a person who lives paycheck to paycheck this is not good for my anxiety. Also today RGB died so another conservative justice will be appointed who almost certainly take away my rights to being guaranteed that health care workers will have to treat me. So yeah I want to get a win in a fictional universe when the real world is so terrible.
 

I won't say that I know what you're going through, because I'm a heterosexual man.
Although I am the type of heterosexual man who wouldn't be welcome in the south either; maybe it's my winning complexion 😁
And considering the death of RBG, I can empathize with what you're going through. Stay strong sis; the tide is turning. Slowly, but it's happening.
 
Oneiros said:
I have personally seen what the strategies of compromise and appeasement will get us.
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I fail to see how "gather more information", "trust Keiko when she says she has a plan", and "no collateral damage" are compromise and appeasement. I resent the implication that anyone in this thread is trying to compromise with or appease the Hagoromo elder(s) specifically, because as far as I can tell that's a position taken by nobody.
 
Oneiros said:
I'm gonna level with you. I am an out trans woman living in the south. Everything that the Hagoromo are doing are things that have happened to me. I don't particularly want to have to fight the same type of bigots who want me dead in my entertainment and my real life but here we are. I have personally seen what the strategies of compromise and appeasement will get us. I want to take a stand and do what will work.

I'm also very stressed because my work got shut down because of COVID and I might be infected. As a person who lives paycheck to paycheck this is not good for my anxiety. Also today RGB died so another conservative justice will be appointed who almost certainly take away my rights to being guaranteed that health care workers will have to treat me. So yeah I want to get a win in a fictional universe when the real world is so terrible.
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But the Hagoromo as a whole may not be doing this. Their Clan Head definitely is, though. I'm trying to point out that their entire clan might not need to be burned to ash. Not to get too political, but the Hagoromo Clan might be as displeased with the head of their clan as certain countries are with their own respective leader(s). If nothing else, I think that the possibility is worth an update or two to investigate, to see if there's a more tolerant faction within the Hagoromo Clan that might be worth supporting over the intolerant factions.

From a narrative level, Hazou wasn't the injured/persecuted party. Keiko was. And Keiko is well on her way to getting back at them, at getting her own win. But she also needs Hazou's aid in doing so. She needs him to do a thing so that her plan can be achieved. So let's do that thing. Let's do that thing so that Hazou can be there for her, in the way that she needs him to be, when she needs him to be.

---
As for the personal points, I'll be honest... I'm not great at talking about my emotions. It's a three-fold problem. Part of it is due to my natural inclination, part of it is trauma-related, and part of it results from quirks of my particular biology. I'm not all that comfortable going into detail about it, especially online (sorry), but I will say this:

I am with you, and this community, here in MfD, is with you. Some of us have suffered in the same way, some of us haven't. Some of us are ghosts that read the updates, some of us comment on every page of the thread. But we are all united in that we stand with you. We will not condemn you for being yourself, as others might have. We will not sneer and scoff at you for the way that you are. We are here, with you, and you are safe. You are free to be yourself, your truest self. You are accepted here. You are welcome here. You are known, and you are loved.

I'm not the most intellectual person, nor am I the most empathetic or the most wise. But if you need to rant, vent, scream, shout, or talk, then feel free to shoot me a PM. I'm not sure that I'll have the right words, or that I'll be of much help, but what I can say is that I'll listen and that I'll reply. I'm usually on here at least once a day, or once every two days.
 
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RandomOTP said:
I am with you, and this community, here in MfD, is with you. Some of us have suffered in the same way, some of us haven't. Some of us are ghosts that read the updates, some of us comment on every page of the thread. But we are all united in that we stand with you. We will not condemn you for being yourself, as others might have. We will not sneer and scoff at you for the way that you are. We are here, with you, and you are safe. You are free to be yourself, your truest self. You are accepted here. You are welcome here. You are known, and you are loved.
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Well said, and I'd like to second this. The MfDverse may sometimes be a medieval bigoted hellhole, but this community is, and must be, a place of openness and acceptance for every person who is willing to be open and accepting to others.
 
In other news, EJ gave out some information on Seventh Path borders in discord, so I have a new draft out incorporating them:

Full history here:
Inferno Vulpix said:
edit: Sixth draft, after EJ generously gave out some information on Porcupine/Hyena/Pangolin borders in discord.
edit: Fifth draft, including some tidbits EJ generously gave on discord and the location of the Squirrels that I scrounged up from the Enma chapter.
edit: fourth draft:
edit 2: third draft, now including a location for the Dogs and clip arts of the various clans.
(There weren't any Mara icons anywhere I could find, so I had to take a photo of one and trace it. Still turned out pretty okay)

edit: updated with a second draft after recent loredump.
Original text:
Alright, got a sketch done. Still not sure which side of the Otters the Condors are supposed to be, but with other statements about the Capybara and so it'd be very awkward if the Condors touched the Pangolins and Toads and were south of the Otters.
Still a good deal of guesswork on the details, but this is roughly how things fit together.

Also, the Pangolins border a heckton of other clans.
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GlassOlive said:
Really, the only thing here is that is was a personal slight against our sister.
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I am not weighing in at this point, merely correcting a question of fact: The Hagoromo did not say something mean about Keiko, they publicly stated that no Gōketsu will be allowed to marry until Hazō makes a public apology for arranging a wedding between two not-Hagoromo clans, both of whom sit on the Clan Council. (i.e., not minor clans)

Shrooms said:
(Btw, I think a lot of the current rhetoric is hyperbolic due to this passion. The contents of the plan are mostly sensible. I don't dislike your recommendations for the plan.)
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I'm not sure there's any hyperbole going on here. My impression is that everyone means exactly what they say, and it would be wise to engage on that basis.

RandomOTP said:
As for the personal points, I'll be honest... I'm not great at talking about my emotions. It's a three-fold problem. Part of it is due to my natural inclination, part of it is trauma-related, and part of it results from quirks of my particular biology. I'm not all that comfortable going into detail about it, especially online (sorry), but I will say this:

I am with you, and this community, here in MfD, is with you. Some of us have suffered in the same way, some of us haven't. Some of us are ghosts that read the updates, some of us comment on every page of the thread. But we are all united in that we stand with you. We will not condemn you for being yourself, as others might have. We will not sneer and scoff at you for the way that you are. We are here, with you, and you are safe. You are free to be yourself, your truest self. You are accepted here. You are welcome here. You are known, and you are loved.

I'm not the most intellectual person, nor am I the most empathetic or the most wise. But if you need to rant, vent, scream, shout, or talk, then feel free to shoot me a PM. I'm not sure that I'll have the right words, or that I'll be of much help, but what I can say is that I'll listen and that I'll reply. I'm usually on here at least once a day, or once every two days.
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@Velorien beat me to it on this one and said it better than I can. I applaud you, RandomOTP in specific, and the MfD crowd in general, for being so amazing. We are the best corner of the internet that I am aware of. Thank you for being this kind of community so that I can participate in it.
 
aaaaa everyone being supportive here is literally making me tear up a little bit. I know I don't post here too often, other than voting I don't really contribute much, but you all are very kind <3

As for my two cents on what we should do here, I have absolutely no fucking clue.
 
…people are talking about smashing an entire clan to pieces over a petty snub.
…
Five minutes…
Shrooms said:
That's language of the oppressor, though I doubt you mean it to be
It's not fair that someone else can be cruel to you, and when you meet their cruelty with resistance, they blame the escalation on you. It's not the oppressed's job to pull their punches when they are the ones being marginalized.
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"When you look into the Abyss, the Abyss looks back." Yes, a trite Niechze quote, but worth quoting because of what it doesn't say: that when you realize the Abyss is looking at you, you realize it's been looking at you for hours now.

The identy of oppressor and oppressed can change without you realizing it. There isn't a pop-up notification for it. In the space of a century, Christianity went from persecuted to persecutor. They justified persecuting pagans in the name of a man murdered for unorthodox religious beliefs.
Oneiros said:
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." ― Edmund Burke.
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… Edmund Burke vehemently opposed the French Revolution. Edmund Burke is remembered as one of the leading intellectual justifiers for gradualist reform and political moderation. "Not nothing" does not at all mean "nuclear option".
firestorm440 said:
Homophobia is bad civilization. So is familial guilt.
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Ditto.

More seriously, has it occurred to you that the Hagoromo would probably think we are overreacting? Getting married by someone else is such an obvious move that they can't have not seen it coming. I see this as a petty insult on their part, to be answered by similarly minor jabs.
Oneiros said:
I have personally seen what the strategies of compromise and appeasement will get us. I want to take a stand and do what will work.
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From 1950s America, where birth control, no-fault divorce, interracial marriage and most especially "homosexual acts" were all illegal, and opposed by wide majorities, to 2020 America, where all these are not only legal, but supported by wide majorities? Incrementalism works. Who has more of his policies still standing, Woodrow Wilson or Vladimir Lenin?

Lastly, the Goketsu simply don't have the resources to start, much less win, a blood feud with a major clan. Petty sniping, on the other hand, is simply expected among Ninja clans. So we do an Isan marriage, and move on. For best effect, we act like this was always our plan, and the Hagoromo never affected it, and that we don't deign to note their existence. They snub us, we snub back, and life goes on, except that we've got our foot wedged in the door with the Concubine Laws. That's a heck of a bigger step than One Inc. Vs Olesen.

Also?
firestorm440 said:
I resent the implication that anyone in this thread is trying to compromise with or appease the Hagoromo elder(s) specifically, because as far as I can tell that's a position taken by nobody.
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This. I (and I guess Firestorm, and probably Kiba) just want to leave room for our enemy to back down and concede the round.

Ugh, too complex an idea to get across. I'm not saying people don't have right to be upset, I'm saying that victory disease is a thing, and we can't let our desire for ultimate victory mislead us into making a tactical error. Remember Fabius Maximus, and don't make the mistake of Varro!

Edit: almost forgot!
[x] Action Plan: Blood and Wine
 
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I maintain that Hazou, Keiko, and Noburi would be able to massively curbstomp any three contenders from this one clan, and assert that we should sort through legalese for mention of dueling laws or declare that they exist and give them the two weeks notice after throwing the gauntlet down.

The stakes shall be the current debt held, plus an equal amount promised to the victor. If we win, the Hags owe us 2mil ryo a month. If they win, their monthly payments get doubled.

I am not without mercy, I am willing to waive a large portion of the debt owed to us after they make a public apology and contingent upon them not gatekeeping marriage between individuals with their ridiculous snobbish homophobic bigotry.

Let the punching with the stakes begin.
 
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I'm conflicted, on one hand, i want the whole "defeat the Hagoromo" arc, on the other Blood And Wine is the better plan. It doesn't have an ungodly amount of scenes, it finds info on the Hagoromo without committing to anything in front of untrustworthy people(Hi, Haru) or impressionable(Hi,Yuno) people and it doesn't close the "Hivemind vs Hagoromo" arc.
 
Again, the Goeketsu snubbing Leaf's traditions in this matter would be politically catastrophic, and this almost certainly isn't the only preparation Hinata has made.
 
What if we publicly request that Hinata officiate the marriage as the leader of Konoha's most noble and traditional clan.
 
Shrooms said:
But you don't compromise with bigotry. There is no middle ground between "These people are people and deserve rights" or "These people are not people and do not deserve rights".
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I strongly disagree with this part. The middle ground is in " [a group of people] are bad, but there are decent people among them". I speak from personal experience and I was on both sides.

Oneiros said:
We will make sure that the innocent are spared.
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How will we distinguish innocent from others?

Btw, Hagoromo may have a lot of gay in their closets, which, in turn, may be the reason why they were so opposed to Concubine Law - it would give their people too much freedom from a higher source.

-----

For one, I am not sure that Hagoromo weren't played by Hyuuga with marriage decision: Isan existence was a secret IIRC, not to mention the implications of Yuno's marriage. Hinata probably just dropped a line about Gouketsu supporting the Concubine law while sipping tea in Fukface's company. He is not required to understand what he's doing to throw a monkey wrench.

Next, I am all for getting rid of bigotry and prejudice, but it shouldn't be done via confrontation. It will just make their opinion stronger. Don't give them more reasons to hate us and/or gay people. Force them work together to see faces in the crowd. Even social attack on Hags would be an attack.

If Isan is a state secret then this puts us in a peculiar position, since if we go screaming "Hagoromo are sabotaging an alliance with Isan" it makes as traitors. Again.

I think that first, we need more info on whether Hagoromo know what they are denying us and Leaf. Then we either go to Asuma for permission to circumvent Hags, or just adopt a non-Hagoromo (and most definitely civilian) priest to conduct the ceremony and still be protected from a Hag's retribution afterwards.

Then we can work on public opinion on gays. Expect it to change as fast as prejudice against civilian-born ninjas.
 
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