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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Here's the problem: Hazou is a mid-level researcher at best. Necromancy is a legendary-tier project.

This is like the equivalent of an unremarkable physicist who only just got their degree last year solving entropy.

Now, said physicist did recently travel to the "free energy" dimension, and you might be able to scan some really useful data from him, but he's nowhere near as qualified for the job as the world-class multiple Nobel laureate specialist expert in entropy-reversal who lives three doors down.

Said expert is one of most predictable people you've ever met (he's an almost purely rational agent with a known utility function), is positively-inclined to the project, and might feel slighted (read: murderous) if you worked on such an interesting project to a successful degree but excluded him from it.

This isn't difficult, people. If you're that scared of him, talk Tsunade into going to the meeting with you.
 
We can do preliminary research on our own. This is a project that's going to take a while, in-game. So we can begin with studying planar/inter-path travel. Study the summoning technique (which summons a chakra golem/projection of the original), and take a few levels into technique hacking through Mari's instruction. Then have Mari and Kagome (we might also want to get Noda to help) help deconstruct the Summoning technique. Then do the same for the Shadow clone.

If we do it right, we might be able to summon Jiraiya from the afterlife the same way that we summon Candoru from the Seventh Path.

This sounds more feasible than a more traditional necromancy.
 
RandomOTP said:
We can do preliminary research on our own. This is a project that's going to take a while, in-game. So we can begin with studying planar/inter-path travel. Study the summoning technique (which summons a chakra golem/projection of the original), and take a few levels into technique hacking through Mari's instruction. Then have Mari and Kagome (we might also want to get Noda to help) help deconstruct the Summoning technique. Then do the same for the Shadow clone.
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You realise what you're asking here, right?

You want Hazou to do "preliminary research" of learning an entirely new discipline, and using it to complete two additional legendary-tier projects? Shadow Clone and Summoning aren't small things. They're the work of gods and demigods. If Hazou with his chunin level Sealing might not even be able to learn skywalkers right now, why would he be able to understand the Summoning Technique with "a few levels" of Technique Hacking?
 
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A place to start would be "search Jiraiya's notes for seals relevant to inter-dimensional heckery", or "talk to the other clan heads about the possibility of opening another afterlife portal to try to get them on-side", or "actually talk to Oro to get his cooperation on the project".

There's lots we could be doing here, but I feel like the hivemind isn't going to do anything meaningful, because meaningful progress will necessarily involve talking to Orochimaru at one point or another.

E:

The thing is, you're not even escaping the conversation with Oro by not talking to him.

If you do this entirely without involving him, and somehow against all odds, make a breakthrough without his help, do you know what will happen?

Hazou will stumble bleary-eyed into the lab one morning to find Oro and Kabuto already there, reading over his research. Oro will say "As Leaf's head medical researcher, I've authorised my own involvement in the project. I assure you that your work is not clan secrets, and I have every right to supervise. Now shall we continue?" and if Hazou puts up an annoying enough fuss then Oro will just put him in a test tube.

All you're doing by not going to Oro immediately is delaying his involvement until such a time as you manage to do anything useful without him (if this ever even happens — which it wouldn't, because once again: Hazou is a mid-level researcher at best, and necromancy is a legendary-tier project).
 
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And as an addendum to 'safely working with Orochimaru', we don't need to credibly threaten his life to be safe talking to him (and in fact, being a credible threat to his life would probably just bump us up to the top of his assassinate-list), we just need harming us to be more trouble than it's worth.

And this doesn't have to take the form of a threat either, we just need the context to be such that Orochimaru figures out that there would be consequences to harming us that outweigh the gains he might get by kidnapping and dissecting us. Saying "I've got dinner with Ino scheduled at 5." conveys to Orochimaru that we will be missed if we disappear suddenly, without being adversarial in the slightest and just sounding like us signalling that we have the afternoon free.

(Incidentally, we can easily reduce the 'what Orochimaru stands to gain' side of the equation by... just giving him what he wants. If he wants to vivisect us and study the Iron Nerve, we can just offer to let him do that as long as he doesn't cause any permanent damage (which doesn't sound like much of a restriction for someone like Orochimaru) or leak clan secrets (which I doubt he'd mind). Once Orochimaru finishes stitching Hazou up, he'll have gotten 90% of what he would want out of kidnapping Hazou, and then convincing him that kidnapping us would be more trouble than it's worth will be an order of magnitude easier)
 
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I don't think I'm verbose enough or rational enough to make a plan, but I think we should leave the collapsed mine and associated fields alone for now. Seems like it'd be a waste of time and effort for very little profit.

Also, it'll probably end up as a good killing field one day. We'll have to escape someone or something eventually, and we can lead them there.
 
Egg Shavings said:
I don't think I'm verbose enough or rational enough to make a plan, but I think we should leave the collapsed mine and associated fields alone for now. Seems like it'd be a waste of time and effort for very little profit.

Also, it'll probably end up as a good killing field one day. We'll have to escape someone or something eventually, and we can lead them there.
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When a plan is first posted, it's a starting point, encouraging discussion and debate on how to refine it. You can get a pretty good plan just by starting with whatever you can toss out here and accepting reasonable suggestions to modify the plan.

In fact, even if the only thing that happens is that someone else disagrees with your plan and puts up a counter-plan, you're still helping. The shift from post-update discussion to pre-update planmaking comes when people start talking shop, and often enough we just need a little poke like a plan to discuss to make it over the hurdle.

Even if you don't end up as a leading plan, or you do but then want to bow out and let other people handle the pressure, there's no harm in posting a plan, and it can help kick the hivemind into gear, so if you want to give it a try then go for it!
 
MadScientist said:
Here's the problem: Hazou is a mid-level researcher at best. Necromancy is a legendary-tier project.

This is like the equivalent of an unremarkable physicist who only just got their degree last year solving entropy.

Now, said physicist did recently travel to the "free energy" dimension, and you might be able to scan some really useful data from him, but he's nowhere near as qualified for the job as the world-class multiple Nobel laureate specialist expert in entropy-reversal who lives three doors down.

Said expert is one of most predictable people you've ever met (he's an almost purely rational agent with a known utility function), is positively-inclined to the project, and might feel slighted (read: murderous) if you worked on such an interesting project to a successful degree but excluded him from it.

This isn't difficult, people. If you're that scared of him, talk Tsunade into going to the meeting with you.
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Sure, Orochimaru might not like us doing necromancy without him. On the other hand, he also might not like us coming to him with nothing to add to the project and expecting him to just let us in because we have a few ideas.

I think a better option is to make an achievement ourselves, then use that to show Orochimaru that we can be useful beyond being a body to dissect.
 
Egg Shavings said:
I don't think I'm verbose enough or rational enough to make a plan, but I think we should leave the collapsed mine and associated fields alone for now. Seems like it'd be a waste of time and effort for very little profit.
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Short plans can also be good!

[X] Action Plan: Ready Player Two
  • Go get lunch with Ami, continue your earlier conversation.
    • How does she feel about Poly-Ami-Mori?
      • Ok,now what about your thoughts on polyamory?
      • Listen to her response.
    • Okay, now what about non-standard romantic relationships? How do you feel about those?
      • It's not like everyone needs to (only) do the Things That Are Expected of Them and slap the "Romance" tag on it.
      • You can clearly have romantic interactions with people without doing "romance" as the term is commonly understood.
      • For example: playing games with people.
        • ^_^
    • Serious turn: the game we're playing almost certainly requires assistance to achieve one of our desired endings.
      • It will be difficult and nigh impossible. Challenging, with high stakes. Fun.
      • After some consideration, extend your hand towards her.
      • "Ami, do you want to play a game?"
  • Spend another week (approximately) continuing your sealing research.
 
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I wonder what other work exists on dimensionalism in sealing. FTG, of course, but that's beyond us too.

But what if we could find some baby's first dimensionalism seals in the library, or find a sealmaster who's dabbled a little in it? Sounds like a good first step, to cover the bases if nothing else.

edit: or in Jiraiya's stash. Given that he made attempts at FTG, odds are he's done some work on the subject before.
 
Sentient Tree said:
Sure, Orochimaru might not like us doing necromancy without him. On the other hand, he also might not like us coming to him with nothing to add to the project and expecting him to just let us in because we have a few ideas.

I think a better option is to make an achievement ourselves, then use that to show Orochimaru that we can be useful beyond being a body to dissect.
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I understand the impulse, but we won't come to him with achievements, because this is beyond Hazou's level.

Hazou's value here is in terms of throwing Clan Head Resources at the problem, convincing other higher level researchers to join the project, convincing other clan heads to assist, and acquiring research from outside-Leaf sources (either stealing or trading-with-Asuma's-permission).

Also, being able to point out where the afterlife rift was, for scanning.
 
MadScientist said:
I understand the impulse, but we won't come to him with achievements, because this is beyond Hazou's level.

Hazou's value here is in terms of throwing Clan Head Resources at the problem, convincing other higher level researchers to join the project, convincing other clan heads to assist, and acquiring research from outside-Leaf sources (either stealing or trading-with-Asuma's-permission).

Also, being able to point out where the afterlife rift was, for scanning.
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We also know about Daizen and could find him for Oro. Probably not good for his health, but he is insane and tried to kill us for Jashin, so...
 
MadScientist said:
Said expert is one of most predictable people you've ever met (he's an almost purely rational agent with a known utility function), is positively-inclined to the project, and might feel slighted (read: murderous) if you worked on such an interesting project to a successful degree but excluded him from it.
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To put things plainly, this is all speculation. Some of it more likely than other, but all far from confirmed. Shall I remind you how our last attempt at modelling Oro as a purely rational agent went?

Look, I get the benefits, and I do think Oro can be dealt with productively. But he is very scary. Not because he's powerful and seemingly amoral, but precisely because our model of him is incomplete in ways that can hurt us severely. We know Jiraiya never gave up on Oro, and ended up bringing him back into the fold, which coloured our impression of him for a while. We also know about the skinfarm, about the potential futures Hazou saw, and how Oro treated us when reclaiming his house. There's a contradiction of sorts in there, and until it's resolved I'm not comfortable predicting his behaviour.

The reason his unpredictability is doubly scary is that he's disconnected from society and therefore lacking in boundaries. Ami, for all her unpredictability, is bound to Keiko, which heavily limits her freedom. Mori Ryuugamine, another really powerful and unpredictable person, may be scary, but he's also bound by his social context, and we can be fairly confident that he won't, for example, murder Hazou during a casual meeting. I don't know what Orochimaru is bound by, and I have a suspicion that it's not much.

The main argument against working with him, though, is that he scares the fuck out of our family, and they reacted very poorly to the idea of working with him last time we brought it up. That is the deal breaker for me; our clan is way more valuable to us than any collaboration with Oro, so if that's a choice, it's a really easy one.

With all that said, I can vote in favour of doing some preliminary research on Oro himself. Knowing more is unlikely to hurt us.
 
[ ] Subsection: Biting the Bullet
  • Send a letter to Orochimaru.
    • We would like to collaborate on learning more about the Iron Nerve, and believe that this is within Orochimaru's fields of expertise and interest.
    • If Orochimaru agrees, then we can establish a time at his leisure to perform whatever tests he wants.
      • The only limitations that we request are that our bloodline secrets are not revealed to Konoha at large, and that we do not sustain permanent damage in the process.
    • (Rationale to the clan) If we give him what he wants on our terms, he won't have any reason to try and take it on his terms. It'll be unpleasant, but it's the best way to stop worrying that we'll one day wake up under the knife.

I'm not quite confident enough in this to put it in a real plan, but this is my current best rendition of how I would want to go about it.
 
MadScientist said:
I understand the impulse, but we won't come to him with achievements, because this is beyond Hazou's level.

Hazou's value here is in terms of throwing Clan Head Resources at the problem, convincing other higher level researchers to join the project, convincing other clan heads to assist, and acquiring research from outside-Leaf sources (either stealing or trading-with-Asuma's-permission).

Also, being able to point out where the afterlife rift was, for scanning.
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Note that Orochimaru also has clan head level resources, and can get more resources from Asuma. We may be able to bring some different resources in, but he might think he could get those anyway with enough intimidation.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
[ ] Subsection: Biting the Bullet
  • Send a letter to Orochimaru.
    • We would like to collaborate on learning more about the Iron Nerve, and believe that this is within Orochimaru's fields of expertise and interest.
    • If Orochimaru agrees, then we can establish a time at his leisure to perform whatever tests he wants.
      • The only limitations that we request are that our bloodline secrets are not revealed to Konoha at large, and that we do not sustain permanent damage in the process.
    • (Rationale to the clan) If we give him what he wants on our terms, he won't have any reason to try and take it on his terms. It'll be unpleasant, but it's the best way to stop worrying that we'll one day wake up under the knife.

I'm not quite confident enough in this to put it in a real plan, but this is my current best rendition of how I would want to go about it.
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I would propose a counter-offer, before implementing such plan, we could ask Ami how would Oro react. She is someone that is actually capable of talking to him, so she:
1) Can give us a fairly good answer to "How stupid is this"
2) Is interested in our survival, so wouldn't lie, especially on something Keiko would find out ASAP.

I would actually vote for "Ask Ami about it", just to see her reaction.
 
MMKII said:
How does she feel about [...]
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Unless this is part is intended to ask Ami for advice about handling a possible Hazou-Ino-Akane relationship (which sounds like a lovely idea, actually.....), I'm not certain that we should include this. It seems to imply Hazou has a romantic interest in Ami. And Ami is still hardly comfortable with the current amount of emotional vulnerability that she and Hazou have. Pressing in this direction, right now, makes it feel like we would be taking advantage of Ami's uncertainty.

Although, maybe the point is to ask Ami to be business/planning/Uplift partners, rather than romantic partners? I'd be... more open to that idea. But if that's the case, I don't understand the questions about polyamory or how Ami views "romance" outside of the traditional contexts.

I'd be okay with asking her to be Hazou's non-romantic partner in world Uplift and then hash out rules and agreements thereafter, but I'm not sure that I'm comfortable pursuing any form of romance between Hazou and Ami right now.
 
[x] Action Plan: Ami's Armaments
Words: TBD

  • Ask Ami about advice regarding talking with/persuading Orochimaru
    • What should we not do/say to avoid triggering his ire?
    • How did you get him to do what you wanted?
  • Is there anything we can do to help you become more comfortable with our presence in your life?
  • There's always an open seat for you at our dinner table, and a spot reserved (in perpetuity) for you at the Goketsu Game Nights. Take your time, come and go as you please.
 
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RandomOTP said:
It seems to imply Hazou has a romantic interest in Ami. And Ami is still hardly comfortable with the current amount of emotional vulnerability that she and Hazou have. Pressing in this direction, right now, makes it feel like we would be taking advantage of Ami's uncertainty.
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Well, communication is important and its important to understand where everyone is coming from on certain issues.

RandomOTP said:
Although, maybe the point is to ask Ami to be business/planning/Uplift partners, rather than romantic partners? I'd be... more open to that idea. But if that's the case, I don't understand the questions about polyamory or how Ami views "romance" outside of the traditional contexts.
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No, we are definitely asking Ami to be romantic partners, just not with "romantic" viewed as the standard Romance(TM).

Also, I am just being flighty and flirty with that plan. Pay it no mind. :V
 
MMKII said:
No, we are definitely asking Ami to be romantic partners, just not with "romantic" viewed as the standard Romance(TM).
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Drat. You got me thinking about what such a scene would look like, and I pictured Hazou asking Ami to be his "platonic partner in the quest for world Uplift" while on bended knee, offering up a stack of papers containing various plans of Uplift...
 
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