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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other
Wordcount: 471.
  • Immediate reaction: grin ominously, say "yes, sir".
  • Optimize everything below with the clan.
  • Goals. Determine:
    • How serious Ami is about the marriage.
    • Whether she could treat you as a proper ally — at least when you represent the clan.
    • Why she cast Keiko aside.
  • Guidelines:
    • Precommitments (overriding priority):
      • Don't talk about OPSEC-sensitive topics. Avoid topics of uncertain confidentiality.
      • Avoid commitments, unless Jiraiya explicitly allowed you to make any.
    • Maintain mental balance.
    • Assume that all displays of emotions are deliberate — if not necessarily fake. Expect mood whiplashes.
    • Don't be intimidated by threats: they're bluffs (probably).
  • Clothes: formal, clan colours + an ornamental kunai.
  • Meet in the pre-established location, then move to the waters for privacy. Split up to get there, if necessary.
    • (For Jiraiya) Take a pre-planned route optimized for spotting pursuers?
    • Have a backup ANBU watch you from the shore. Inform Ami of this.
  • Start by establishing a scheme to confirm integrity of letters. (Example: "nth letter of every sentence follows a pattern".)
  • Serious discussion:
    • Guidelines:
      • Demeanour: calm but serious.
      • Don't let Ami sidetrack you, or continue obfuscating. Insist on directness.
      • She probably won't like it. If she persists in trying to play games, even after several warnings, calmly say that you'll be waiting for her reply and leave.
    • Topics:
      • Does Ami want to join forces with you?
        • For political and personal reasons, you're willing to use your status as the clan heir to push for allying with her, marriage included if necessary. However, you'd need a clear statement of intent, with no further mindgames.
          • Some of her actions suggest she is in danger. Does she need help?
        • If she lies, we precommit to treat it as a major betrayal, regardless of the lie's actual consequences.
        • (Don't confront her regarding Keiko until this is sorted out.)
      • If Ami stated she'd like to work together, bring up Keiko:
        • Whatever Ami did when they met, it left Keiko convinced she hates her. With Ami's level of control, you doubt it's unintentional. Is it true? Why?
        • Letter #1 hurt her. It's partially your fault, but Ami is responsible too. Is she is going to treat Keiko with disregard? If so, you doubt you could be close allies.
  • If everything goes well (i. e., you get an honest answer, regardless of its contents):
    • Move back to the shore. Have a picnic, make small-talk.
      • Act more relaxed and friendly. Do not forget the precommitments.
      • Is it cold outside? Plagiarize ISC: bring chairs, a table, warm blankets, an iron barrel filled with fuel, socks filled with heated sand.
        • (Leave scrolls with the ANBU until then?)
      • (1 FP) Offer her some Ichiraku ramen. Mention that Teuchi made it for us: everyone in Leaf loves his cooking.
      • Has she ever played any board games? If no, is she interested?
        • Avoid innuendos.
    • Hand her a post-interaction survey.

  • Deleted "to consider" section, since it's something Hazou already considered.
  • @Rafin: clarified instructions about insisting on directness and precommiting to treat her as hostile if she lies. Are the changes satisfactory?
  • @Lord Marshal:
    • It's not clear whether being an envoy is something she, or Mist, or Jiraiya would find acceptable, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to mention it at this time. We could bring up this option once we have a clearer picture of her goals.
    • Expanding on small-talk: I think we should leave this to Hazou's own judgment, as the level of "openness" would heavily depend on how the serious section goes. It's entirely possible that we won't even get to that. If we do, I think Hazou would manage earnestness on his own.
  • @Roomba: I'm inclined to be lenient. I think cooperating with her would be highly beneficial (provided we're actually able to get her to cooperate), and as you've stated, her probable need to feel in control is a known quantity. I don't think we should risk sabotaging our relations by deliberately pressing one of her buttons and then cutting ties if she acts exactly as we expect her to.

Suggestion:
During the first meeting, Ami made the following suggestion:
Ami said:
You do not require the comfort of arbitrary patterns of interaction? If so, we may continue much more efficiently by relying on a properly structured system. Branching linear structures surpass unconstrained spontaneity for our purpose, and the advantages in terms of managing uncertain power dynamics and adversarial information exchange are too obvious to state.
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This may be a good way to frame the "serious" part of the discussion. Additionally, adopting one of her suggestions may make her feel more comfortable with that part (i. e., more in control). What do we think about belatedly accepting it?
 
Last edited:
Noumero said:
[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other
Wordcount: 442.
  • Goals:
    • Determine how serious Ami is about the marriage.
    • Determine whether she is capable of treating you as a proper ally.
  • Guidelines:
    • Precommitments (overriding priority):
      • Don't talk about OPSEC-sensitive topics. Don't bring up topics of uncertain confidentiality.
      • Avoid commitments aside from those Jiraiya explicitly allowed you to make (if any).
    • Maintain mental balance.
    • Assume that all displays of emotions are deliberate — whether they're genuine or not. Watch out for mood whiplashes.
    • Don't be intimidated by threats: they're bluffs (probably).
  • Demeanour: calm but serious. Clothes: clan colours.
  • Check everything below with Jiraiya.
  • Meet in the pre-established location, then move to the waters for privacy. Split up to get there, if necessary.
    • Employ Silence Mines (if approved).
    • Have a backup ANBU discreetly watch you from the shore. Inform Ami of this.
  • Start by establishing a scheme to confirm integrity of letters
    • (Example: "nth letter of every sentence follows a pattern".)
    • Wondering if Letter #1 was from a third party was a headache. Never again.
  • Serious discussion:
    • Guidelines:
      • Don't let Ami sidetrack you, or continue obfuscating. Be direct, insist on directness in turn.
      • If she persists in playing with ambiguity and manipulations, even after several warnings: calmly say that you'll be waiting for her reply, leave.
    • Topics:
      • Does Ami want to join forces with you?
        • For political as well as personal reasons, you're willing to use your status as the clan heir to argue for allying with her, marriage included if necessary. However, you'd need a clear statement of intent, with no further mindgames.
          • Some of her actions suggest she is in danger. Does she need help?
        • If she lies regarding this, you'll treat it as a major betrayal, with all that entails.
      • If Ami stated she'd like to work together, bring up Keiko:
        • Whatever Ami did when they met, it left Keiko convinced she hates her. With Ami's level of control, you doubt it's unintentional. Is it true?
        • Letter #1 hurt her. You're partially to blame, for not informing Keiko of the interaction in advance, but Ami is responsible too. Is she is going to treat her with disregard? If so, you doubt you could be close allies.
  • If everything goes well:
    • Move back to the shore. Have a picnic, make small-talk. Act more relaxed and friendly.
      • Do not forget the precommitments.
      • (Is it cold outside? Plagiarize ISC: bring chairs, a table, warm blankets, an iron barrel filled with fuel, socks filled with heated sand. (And food.))
    • Important (relatively): Ask whether she played board games. If no, is she interested?
      • Mind the innuendos.
    • Make a cryptic remark about chronology breaking down around her. Don't elaborate.
    • Hand her a post-interaction survey.

  • Deleted "to consider" section, since it's something Hazou already considered.
  • @Rafin: clarified instructions about insisting on directness and precommiting to treat her as hostile if she lies. Are the changes satisfactory?
  • @Lord Marshal:
    • It's not clear whether being an envoy is something she, or Mist, or Jiraiya would find acceptable, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to mention it at this time. We could bring up this option once we have a clearer picture of her goals.
    • Expanding on small-talk: I think we should leave this to Hazou's own judgment, as the level of "openness" would heavily depend on how the serious section goes. It's entirely possible that we won't even get to that. If we do, I think Hazou would manage earnestness on his own.
  • @Roomba: I'm inclined to be lenient. I think cooperating with her would be highly beneficial (provided we're actually able to get her to cooperate), and as you've stated, her probable need to feel in control is a known quantity. I don't think we should risk sabotaging our relations by deliberately pressing one of her buttons and then cutting ties if she acts exactly as we expect her to.

Suggestion:
During the first meeting, Ami made the following suggestion:

This may be a good way to frame the "serious" part of the discussion. Additionally, adopting one of her suggestions may make her feel more comfortable with that part (i. e., more in control). What do we think about belatedly accepting it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Would you be open to adding some Keiko-lipservice here? A statement disagreeing with her worldview while supporting her right to view things the way she wants anyway, in addition to a request that we maybe talk about specifics regarding that later, since they may be causing her undue distress inadvertently, that sort of thing.
 
I would suggest making the Keiko conversation not contingent on Ami agreeing to join forces with Hazou. Also not sure about the phrasing there.
 
Oneiros said:
Since the chunnin exam is finally wrapped up it's officially time to start plotting for our triumphant return to Hidden Mountain.

First thing first we need to find out how on board Kei is with exploiting her status as the Heir of Ui. If we can successfully convince her that it's worth going full Messiah we have a fairly clear path into turning the Village into a Goketsu vassal state. If we can't convince her then our options are much less limited.

We will also need a pretty solid plan to pitch to Jiraiya. He's not going to be able to time away from Leaf slash finding Naruto. So we will have to handle the negotiations ourselves. I believe that we should pitch Jiraiya an opportunity to modernize Mountain with new industry. It's also a perfect location for testing Kagome's teaching methods without risking a generation of Leaf nin. At the same time we should stress how valuable it would be to have another 10-20 sealmasters who we could teach to infuse skywalkers once they where properly vetted
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Lailoken said:
Have J show up on a flying, mountain-sized toad flanked by a company of elite, building-sized pangolins.

"Hi. We want to be friends. Don't you want to be friends with us?"
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Langevin said:
I agree this could lead to complications, and it's worth considering those.

But remember that there are tradeoffs in the other direction, too.
The more wealth and power we have, the more we can afford to push back against the Pangolin genocide. The more we can route around the Merchant Council, the more we can get Jiraiya to support civilians, peace, and prosperity regardless of what Hyuuga thinks.
Personally, I think this factor dominates the potential costs.

Not to mention--we're ninja. Lying to people is the least bad thing we do in order to succeed and survive.
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Eek. Beware the greater good argument. That's how good people are convinced to make terrible, terrible mistakes. I can show you the psychology research if you like. Remember the Milgram experiments, where regular people were persuaded to torture people to death? The script the 'scientist' had involved telling the people that it was a very important experiment, that important things would be learned by it, that it needed to be done. That's all it took.

Humans have a severe ethical weakness to this argument, it's a weeping cognitive blindspot in every one of our brains from birth. We are incapable of reasoning around it safely. The only really safe option is to reject it completely as a justification for doing anything and make decisions entirely on other bases.
 
Noumero said:
[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other
Wordcount: 442.
  • Goals:
    • Determine how serious Ami is about the marriage.
    • Determine whether she is capable of treating you as a proper ally.
  • Guidelines:
    • Precommitments (overriding priority):
      • Don't talk about OPSEC-sensitive topics. Don't bring up topics of uncertain confidentiality.
      • Avoid commitments aside from those Jiraiya explicitly allowed you to make (if any).
    • Maintain mental balance.
    • Assume that all displays of emotions are deliberate — whether they're genuine or not. Watch out for mood whiplashes.
    • Don't be intimidated by threats: they're bluffs (probably).
  • Demeanour: calm but serious. Clothes: clan colours.
  • Check everything below with Jiraiya.
  • Meet in the pre-established location, then move to the waters for privacy. Split up to get there, if necessary.
    • Employ Silence Mines (if approved).
    • Have a backup ANBU discreetly watch you from the shore. Inform Ami of this.
  • Start by establishing a scheme to confirm integrity of letters
    • (Example: "nth letter of every sentence follows a pattern".)
    • Wondering if Letter #1 was from a third party was a headache. Never again.
  • Serious discussion:
    • Guidelines:
      • Don't let Ami sidetrack you, or continue obfuscating. Be direct, insist on directness in turn.
      • If she persists in playing with ambiguity and manipulations, even after several warnings: calmly say that you'll be waiting for her reply, leave.
    • Topics:
      • Does Ami want to join forces with you?
        • For political as well as personal reasons, you're willing to use your status as the clan heir to argue for allying with her, marriage included if necessary. However, you'd need a clear statement of intent, with no further mindgames.
          • Some of her actions suggest she is in danger. Does she need help?
        • If she lies regarding this, you'll treat it as a major betrayal, with all that entails.
      • If Ami stated she'd like to work together, bring up Keiko:
        • Whatever Ami did when they met, it left Keiko convinced she hates her. With Ami's level of control, you doubt it's unintentional. Is it true?
        • Letter #1 hurt her. You're partially to blame, for not informing Keiko of the interaction in advance, but Ami is responsible too. Is she is going to treat her with disregard? If so, you doubt you could be close allies.
  • If everything goes well:
    • Move back to the shore. Have a picnic, make small-talk. Act more relaxed and friendly.
      • Do not forget the precommitments.
      • (Is it cold outside? Plagiarize ISC: bring chairs, a table, warm blankets, an iron barrel filled with fuel, socks filled with heated sand. (And food.))
    • Important (relatively): Ask whether she played board games. If no, is she interested?
      • Mind the innuendos.
    • Make a cryptic remark about chronology breaking down around her. Don't elaborate.
    • Hand her a post-interaction survey.

  • Deleted "to consider" section, since it's something Hazou already considered.
  • @Rafin: clarified instructions about insisting on directness and precommiting to treat her as hostile if she lies. Are the changes satisfactory?
  • @Lord Marshal:
    • It's not clear whether being an envoy is something she, or Mist, or Jiraiya would find acceptable, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to mention it at this time. We could bring up this option once we have a clearer picture of her goals.
    • Expanding on small-talk: I think we should leave this to Hazou's own judgment, as the level of "openness" would heavily depend on how the serious section goes. It's entirely possible that we won't even get to that. If we do, I think Hazou would manage earnestness on his own.
  • @Roomba: I'm inclined to be lenient. I think cooperating with her would be highly beneficial (provided we're actually able to get her to cooperate), and as you've stated, her probable need to feel in control is a known quantity. I don't think we should risk sabotaging our relations by deliberately pressing one of her buttons and then cutting ties if she acts exactly as we expect her to.

Suggestion:
During the first meeting, Ami made the following suggestion:

This may be a good way to frame the "serious" part of the discussion. Additionally, adopting one of her suggestions may make her feel more comfortable with that part (i. e., more in control). What do we think about belatedly accepting it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Are you forgetting the goal where we want to find out what's really motivating the split with Keiko and maybe offer our help in fixing it if we could somehow help? We did just get Keiko's permission to do that.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Eek. Beware the greater good argument. That's how good people are convinced to make terrible, terrible mistakes. I can show you the psychology research if you like. Remember the Milgram experiments, where regular people were persuaded to torture people to death? The script the 'scientist' had involved telling the people that it was a very important experiment, that important things would be learned by it, that it needed to be done. That's all it took.

Humans have a severe ethical weakness to this argument, it's a weeping cognitive blindspot in every one of our brains from birth. We are incapable of reasoning around it safely. The only really safe option is to reject it completely as a justification for doing anything and make decisions entirely on other bases.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And if what the subjects were told was true, then they would have been correct to follow through on it.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Are you forgetting the goal where we want to find out what's really motivating the split with Keiko and maybe offer our help in fixing it if we could somehow help? We did just get Keiko's permission to do that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Noumero said:
Whatever Ami did when they met, it left Keiko convinced she hates her. With Ami's level of control, you doubt it's unintentional. Is it true?
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It appears to be covered in this line, though it might be better served by being a little more pronounced. If this is a major goal of the meeting then we can afford to emphasize it a little.
 
Whatever else happens, the final line of the last update requires that Hazou's first action be pulling out the single most evil grin in his IN catalog and growl "yes sir." Got to keep J on his toes.

Regarding Mountain, don't forget that one of J's assets is a provable descendant of the founder and would probably make a good first contact with the outside world.
 
Lailoken said:
Whatever else happens, the final line of the last update requires that Hazou's first action be pulling out the single most evil grin in his IN catalog and growl "yes sir." Got to keep J on his toes.
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On this we agree wholeheartedly.

@Noumero

I implore you, there are appearances to be kept!

E: Let it not be said that I am an ungrateful voter:

[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other
 
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Is anyone else concerned about possible consequences from yelling fuck the clan in a public place? I could easily see that coming back to bite J. "Those missing nin are using you" etc.
 
[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other
 
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Cariyaga said:
A suggestion:

Instead of wearing Goketsu-clan colours, wear the colors Keiko tends toward.
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TaliesinSkye said:
Are you forgetting the goal where we want to find out what's really motivating the split with Keiko and maybe offer our help in fixing it if we could somehow help? We did just get Keiko's permission to do that.
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Vecht said:
We uh... probably don't want to do that IC.
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I would like to see these concerns addressed in some regard before I am willing to vote for the plan.
 
Cariyaga said:
Instead of wearing Goketsu-clan colours, wear the colors Keiko tends toward.
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Click to shrink...
Hm. I think "the Gouketsu heir-apparent" is our main role here, so I'm disinclined to do that... on the other hand, nothing stops us from wearing something symbolizing her. I'll add it.
I would suggest making the Keiko conversation not contingent on Ami agreeing to join forces with Hazou
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But then she'll lie. If she doesn't want to work with us, it's highly unlikely that she'll be willing to drop the deception, which means we'll be forcing her to reinforce it. At best, we're going to go back to Keiko with horrible news ("yes, Ami really hates you for such-and-such reasons") that aren't even true. At worst, Ami'll decide that "assuring Keiko's safety" is more important than maintaining friendly relations with us, and will decide to reinforce the deception in some highly effective but highly destructive ways.
MMKII said:
Would you be open to adding some Keiko-lipservice here?
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Well, I'm not categorically opposed to that? I don't quite see what that would accomplish. She probably already knows what we think about her worldview, and I see no particular reason to forewarn her about a future discussion, but sure.
TaliesinSkye said:
Are you forgetting the goal where we want to find out what's really motivating the split with Keiko and maybe offer our help in fixing it if we could somehow help? We did just get Keiko's permission to do that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Implemented.
Lailoken said:
Whatever else happens, the final line of the last update requires that Hazou's first action be pulling out the single most evil grin in his IN catalog and growl "yes sir." Got to keep J on his toes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Implemented.
Vecht said:
We uh... probably don't want to do that IC.
Click to expand...
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Bah, fine. I was actually wondering how soon someone would contest it; if nobody did, I would have suggested removing it myself. Going to be honest, I didn't expect you of all people to be the spoilsport.

Deleted.

Changes implemented.
Noumero said:
[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other
Wordcount: 454.
  • Immediate reaction: put on your most ominous grin, say "yes, sir".
  • Goals:
    • Determine how serious Ami is about the marriage.
    • Determine whether she is capable of treating you as a proper ally.
    • Determine why she cast Keiko aside.
  • Guidelines:
    • Precommitments (overriding priority):
      • Don't talk about OPSEC-sensitive topics. Don't bring up topics of uncertain confidentiality.
      • Avoid commitments aside from those Jiraiya explicitly allowed you to make (if any).
    • Maintain mental balance.
    • Assume that all displays of emotions are deliberate — whether they're genuine or not. Watch out for mood whiplashes.
    • Don't be intimidated by threats: they're bluffs (probably).
  • Demeanour: calm but serious. Clothes: formal, clan colours + something subtly symbolizing Keiko.
  • Check everything below with Jiraiya.
  • Meet in the pre-established location, then move to the waters for privacy. Split up to get there, if necessary.
    • Employ Silence Mines (if approved).
    • Have a backup ANBU discreetly watch you from the shore. Inform Ami of this.
  • Start by establishing a scheme to confirm integrity of letters
    • (Example: "nth letter of every sentence follows a pattern".)
    • Wondering if Letter #1 was from a third party was a headache. Never again.
  • Serious discussion:
    • Guidelines:
      • Don't let Ami sidetrack you, or continue obfuscating. Be direct, insist on directness in turn.
      • If she persists in playing with ambiguity and manipulations, even after several warnings: calmly say that you'll be waiting for her reply, leave.
    • Topics:
      • Does Ami want to join forces with you?
        • For political as well as personal reasons, you're willing to use your status as the clan heir to argue for allying with her, marriage included if necessary. However, you'd need a clear statement of intent, with no further mindgames.
          • Some of her actions suggest she is in danger. Does she need help?
        • If she lies regarding this, you'll treat it as a major betrayal, with all that entails.
      • If Ami stated she'd like to work together, bring up Keiko:
        • Whatever Ami did when they met, it left Keiko convinced she hates her. With Ami's level of control, you doubt it's unintentional. Is it true?
        • Letter #1 hurt her. You're partially to blame, for not informing Keiko of the interaction in advance, but Ami is responsible too. Is she is going to treat her with disregard? If so, you doubt you could be close allies.
  • If everything goes well:
    • Move back to the shore. Have a picnic, make small-talk. Act more relaxed and friendly.
      • Do not forget the precommitments.
      • (Is it cold outside? Plagiarize ISC: bring chairs, a table, warm blankets, an iron barrel filled with fuel, socks filled with heated sand. (And food.))
    • Important (relatively): Ask whether she played board games. If no, is she interested?
      • Mind the innuendos.
    • Hand her a post-interaction survey.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other
 
Noumero said:
Bah, fine. I was actually wondering how soon someone would contest it; if nobody did, I would have suggested removing it myself. Going to be honest, I didn't expect you of all people to be the spoilsport.
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Unfortunately I will have to remove my vote. This kind of trolling is incredibly important to dealing with Ami
 
There needs to be an emoji for "Cackling with lightning blasted everywhere."
Noumero said:
Bah, fine. I was actually wondering how soon someone would contest it; if nobody did, I would have suggested removing it myself. Going to be honest, I didn't expect you of all people to be the spoilsport.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Instead: Inform her that we are the champion of the CHAOS (all caps) entities of the Out, chosen by dread circumstances to serve as their avatar foreverormore.

Sealing failures, I tell ya...
 
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