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Guys, if we're really aiming to troll Ami, at a random point in the conversation we should have our hands in full view tapping out the fingerings to Tears of Red on the flute. Let her constantly spend moments trying to figure out what the hell we're tapping out.
 
Unfortunately I will have to remove my vote. This kind of trolling is incredibly important to dealing with Ami
Sheesh. Would this suffice?:
  • Important (relatively): Ask whether she played board games. If no, is she interested?
    • Mind the innuendos.
    • Bring up the possibility that your own universe is fictional. Act as if it's a deeply meaningful question for a minute, then laugh it off.
@Vecht, @Cariyaga, is this acceptable?
 
[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other

I want the time bending comment back though :[
 
Is anyone else concerned about possible consequences from yelling fuck the clan in a public place? I could easily see that coming back to bite J. "Those missing nin are using you" etc.
I've considered it, but I don't think we have to worry here. It sounds like a bad lie.

Hazō: Blah blah blah, uplift blah.

Detractor: You can't trust those traitors, they're unloyal!

Jiraiya: My kids have been nothing but loyal to Leaf.

Keiko: We have been very consistent in our preference of village.

Detractor: It's lies, I tell you! I heard them putting down their own clan in a restaurant! They're planning mutiny.

Hazō: *eyes raised* Strange, I don't recall such an event. What was it that caused concern?

Detractor: *mumbles*You said fuck the clan.*mumbles*

Hazō: Sorry, I didn't catch that.

Detractor: You!—*pointing*—You said Fuck The Clan! That's what you said!

Hazō: *chuckling* What a convenient story.

Jiraiya: *semi-seriously* How did you hear this? Were they discussing it between themselves?

Detractor: No! They screamed it out loud for all to hear!

Hazō: *bent over laughing* fuuuu—ck
 
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[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other

Speaking of Inter-Universal horrors.
If Hivemind had one group of precious buns, then Mori Voice had maaaaaaaany PCs.
So she reached down, past the shadows that were the legacy of the Mori Clan's distant progenitors, into the depths of the Frozen Skein. She touched the focus point.
The game they played run for a long time.
And at this point, it's easy to understand their apathetic disposition- how can you care, after so many games?
Now, I merely hope that (hypothetically, of course) revealing our presence to them won't awaken something inside, and make Mori Voice... more unpredictable.
 
I would consider suggestions. Implemented, though.

Entertainment. Also, rapport: Ami finds messing with people amusing as well.
I don't consider personal-entertainment-value to be a very strong motivating factor for inclusion of details in plan, for future reference. The latter, however, is a good point.
 
Demanding Ami is serious and then playing goal-free mind games with her seems really short-sighted.
We're not doing them simultaneously. The plan divides the meeting into the "serious" part and the relatively relaxed "picnic". The mind game joke is put into the second part, after all serious business.
I don't consider personal-entertainment-value to be a very strong motivating factor for inclusion of details in plan, for future reference.
Well, I considered the previous version (about chronology) to be amusing not only to me, but to the rest of the playerbase too, as well as to the QMs. Since we're ultimately all in this for entertainment, I considered a little OOC joke appropriate.
A couple of things that I think would be enlightening to talk to Ami about are how we've always wanted to go to bear. Second ask if she has ever been involved in a heist.
Bear: Depending on what's going on with it, implicitly asking for intel on it may be a non-trivial matter. I'll consider it.

Heist: What if we actually decide to do a heist later on, though? That'll be as good as forewarning Ami about it.
 
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We're not doing them simultaneously. The plan divides the meeting into the "serious" part and the relatively relaxed "picnic". The mind game is put into the second part, after all serious business.
I feel I read Ami differently to you. She doesn't do these things as a joke, she does them to win. Saying random things is likely to be as effective as saying bitcoin and AI mumbo jumbo to a professional; maybe you'll convince a bystander that you're playing on the same level, but you won't convince the real deal.
 
I feel I read Ami differently to you. She doesn't do these things as a joke, she does them to win.
Why not both? Keiko believes that Ami genuinely finds these games entertaining, and Ami implies in her PoV chapter that she's never deceived Keiko prior to the Exams... which is far from conclusive evidence, granted, but it does support that possibility.
 
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And if what the subjects were told was true, then they would have been correct to follow through on it.
No, they would not have, and we can discuss the reasons if you would like. But even if we were to accept that torturing someone to death was the only way to save the lives of everyone in the world, the point here that the people just had to have an extremely vague greater good argument wafted in their general direction and they uncritically accepted it to such an extreme extent that they willingly tortured people to death, and then electrocuted the corpses some more for good measure. Similar occurrences have repeated many times throughout human history, where people committed completely unnecessary horrors because they were told they were necessary and their brains switched off.

GREATER GOOD ARGUMENTS ARE NOT TRUSTWORTHY. YOUR HUMAN BRAIN CANNOT WELL DISTINGUISH THE GOOD ONES FROM THE BAD ONES, EVEN IF YOU THINK TO TRY IN THE MOMENT.

HEED THIS WARNING.​

What is a "good person", out of curiousity?
For the sake of this discussion, it's just a regular person that doesn't normally go about torturing other people to death. Who would never dream of doing so all by themselves, but who did so thanks to a greater good argument that didn't even have so much as a scrap of specific supporting evidence much less actual validity.


[x] Ami Plan: Aided by Their Respective Inter-Universal Horrors, Two Lunatics Talk to Each Other
 
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Why not both? Keiko believes that Ami genuinely finds these games entertaining, and Ami implies in her PoV chapter that she's never deceived Keiko prior to the Exams... which is far from conclusive evidence, granted, but it does support that possibility.
I don't think you've understood my comment about how Ami is playing a skilled game that's fundamentally different to what's being proposed on the thread.

A chess player enjoys playing chess, not moving chess pieces. This is the distinction this thread is missing; Ami's enjoyment would come from playing the game, not making the gestures. Banning Ami from playing the game when there's an actual game to be played is not counterbalanced by throwing out disconnected phrases.
 
I've considered it, but I don't think we have to worry here. It sounds like a bad lie.

Hazō: Blah blah blah, uplift blah.

Detractor: You can't trust those traitors, they're unloyal!

Jiraiya: My kids have been nothing but loyal to Leaf.

Keiko: We have been very consistent in our preference of village.

Detractor: It's lies, I tell you! I heard them putting down their own clan in a restaurant! They're planning mutiny.

Hazō: *eyes raised* Strange, I don't recall such an event. What was it that caused concern?

Detractor: *mumbles*You said fuck the clan.*mumbles*

Hazō: Sorry, I didn't catch that.

Detractor: You!—*pointing*—You said Fuck The Clan! That's what you said!

Hazō: *chuckling* What a convenient story.

Jiraiya: *semi-seriously* How did you hear this? Were they discussing it between themselves?

Detractor: No! They screamed it out loud for all to hear!

Hazō: *bent over laughing* fuuuu—ck

"Actually we were just discussing the various methods by which we might combine our three bloodlines to make one super bloodline. Aren't you sorry you asked now?"
 
No, they would not have, and we can discuss the reasons if you would like. But even if we were to accept that torturing someone to death was the only way to save the lives of everyone in the world, the point here that the people just had to have an extremely vague greater good argument wafted in their general direction and they uncritically accepted it to such an extreme extent that they willingly tortured people to death, and then electrocuted the corpses some more for good measure. Similar occurrences have repeated many times throughout human history, where people committed completely unnecessary horrors because they were told they were necessary and their brains switched off.

GREATER GOOD ARGUMENTS ARE NOT TRUSTWORTHY. YOUR HUMAN BRAIN CANNOT WELL DISTINGUISH THE GOOD ONES FROM THE BAD ONES, EVEN IF YOU THINK TO TRY IN THE MOMENT.

HEED THIS WARNING.​

I feel like this argument assumes your highest priority is avoiding wrong action, rather than maximizing net good. "Greater good" arguments can also persuade people to make sacrifices in pursuit of a legitimately good end - for example, taxation used to fund public works programs is a case of imposing a personal cost on people to produce the greater good of projects requiring central coordination. You could argue that such arguments have on net tended to hurt more than help, but failing to even address their positive aspects seems like an oversight.
 
How confident are we that neglecting to include a response to Keiko is going to prevent the clan from imploding/keep us on linear time?
 
No, they would not have, and we can discuss the reasons if you would like. But even if we were to accept that torturing someone to death was the only way to save the lives of everyone in the world, the point here that the people just had to have an extremely vague greater good argument wafted in their general direction and they uncritically accepted it to such an extreme extent that they willingly tortured people to death, and then electrocuted the corpses some more for good measure. Similar occurrences have repeated many times throughout human history, where people committed completely unnecessary horrors because they were told they were necessary and their brains switched off.

GREATER GOOD ARGUMENTS ARE NOT TRUSTWORTHY. YOUR HUMAN BRAIN CANNOT WELL DISTINGUISH THE GOOD ONES FROM THE BAD ONES, EVEN IF YOU THINK TO TRY IN THE MOMENT.

HEED THIS WARNING.​

I'm personally a strong proponent of the ethical injunction concept, but "don't agree with any argument framed as 'for the greater good'" is very definitely a bad ethical injunction. You want to prohibit specific actions (murder, violence, theft, deception, etc), because "you should do this because it has good outcomes" is the entire basis of morality. You cannot usefully defend against misappropriation of that concept without either generalizing dangerously ("you should ignore opposing arguments unless they're for trivial stakes") or going off of some other criteria, in which case your actual criteria are those other criteria.

As is, your rule is based on making reasonable judgments in the moment, and ethical injunctions are only useful if they're not something you let yourself override. I'd reconsider things.
 
I'm personally a strong proponent of the ethical injunction concept, but "don't agree with any argument framed as 'for the greater good'" is very definitely a bad ethical injunction. You want to prohibit specific actions (murder, violence, theft, deception, etc), because "you should do this because it has good outcomes" is the entire basis of morality. You cannot usefully defend against misappropriation of that concept without either generalizing dangerously ("you should ignore opposing arguments unless they're for trivial stakes") or going off of some other criteria, in which case your actual criteria are those other criteria.

As is, your rule is based on making reasonable judgments in the moment, and ethical injunctions are only useful if they're not something you let yourself override. I'd reconsider things.
Eh. Ethical injunctions aren't especially necessary for that. Just game theory. :p
 
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