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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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MMKII said:
Analysis:
  • She did an impeccable job keeping you off balance the entire conversation by switching faces
  • She knew about our Ghost Scales coverup as well as our connection to the Yakuza.
  • She also subtly highlighted at least half a dozen ways she could have owned your ass throughout that conversation. Yet each was at a level we could barely overcome.
    • The intentional lowball offer to buy your soul, killing intent, the barely-trying seduction attempt, the obvious stand in for "poisoned" food (which may be poisoned), her backup, etc.
  • Beyond that, Hazou cannot guess at what level she is playing at. It's possible she was bullshitting us the entire time, or telling the truth on everything, or using this as a teaching experience, or all of that and more.
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  • The topics she avoided:
    • Our biggest secrets, time as missing-nin, Skywalkers, Cold Stone killers. Could've easily brought up the last one in particular, but she didn't.
    • Keiko. Not a single conversation thread leading in her direction.
    • Current Mist/Leaf politics. Likely could've gotten something from us, but didn't even try.
  • Verifiable facts and concrete offers:
    • The Yukizome story
    • The offer to test out our uplift ideas
    • What else?
  • Many casual references to death in the line of duty - of her friends, and of herself. Resigned fatalism or angry bitterness? Or just an act?
MMKII said:
Conclusions:
  • She is extremely talented, and can likely make use of her bloodline to an extent that Keiko will not be able to do for a long time.
  • She is able to switch gears incredibly fast.
  • Seems to make a habit of getting people to owe her favors. Is very proactive about this.
  • Hazou needs to up his game. A lot.
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  • The meeting felt partially like a test, and partially like a warning not to try and play beyond our means.
  • It does seem like she wants to interact in some amount of good faith - if she didn't, she should've had much more effective approaches than the emotional rollercoaster she put Hazou on.
    • She poked us a bit on relatively minor details, but left the important stuff alone.
 
Torpling said:
So... what do you think Ami intended with this meeting? It seems like she wants something from Hazou (prime candidate would be Keiko-related I guess), considering the effort she seems to have invested into this meeting and into building a relationship with Hazou.
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Maybe she's trying to get us to the point where we can do social on the level of what is needed in order to keep Keiko out from under the thumb of the Mori clan? That way Ami can meet her and make amends. For that to work, Keiko needs strong allies who can stand up to whatever manipulation the Mori throw at them. Ideally, this would be the Nara, but if for some reason that falls through we're the backup. Plus, we'll be in Keiko's corner almost as much as Ami is, while the Nara might have more important goals that Keiko could be thrown under the bus for.

So I think one of Ami's goals for this meeting was to give us a huge kick in the seat of our pants to get us working faster on becoming good at social.

Edit:
[X] Action Plan: Debriefings and Doctorings
 
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Roomba said:
  • The topics she avoided:
    • Our biggest secrets, time as missing-nin, Skywalkers, Cold Stone killers. Could've easily brought up the last one in particular, but she didn't.
    • Keiko. Not a single conversation thread leading in her direction.
    • Current Mist/Leaf politics. Likely could've gotten something from us, but didn't even try.
  • Verifiable facts and concrete offers:
    • The Yukizome story
    • The offer to test out our uplift ideas
    • What else?
  • Many casual references to death in the line of duty - of her friends, and of herself. Resigned fatalism or angry bitterness? Or just an act?
  • The meeting felt partially like a test, and partially like a warning not to try and play beyond our means.
  • It does seem like she wants to interact in some amount of good faith - if she didn't, she should've had much more effective approaches than the emotional rollercoaster she put Hazou on.
    • She poked us a bit on relatively minor details, but left the important stuff alone.
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Wonderful! Will concise-ify and add later when I'm free.
 
Roomba said:
  • The topics she avoided:
    • Our biggest secrets, time as missing-nin, Skywalkers, Cold Stone killers. Could've easily brought up the last one in particular, but she didn't.
    • Keiko. Not a single conversation thread leading in her direction.
    • Current Mist/Leaf politics. Likely could've gotten something from us, but didn't even try.
  • Verifiable facts and concrete offers:
    • The Yukizome story
    • The offer to test out our uplift ideas
    • What else?
  • Many casual references to death in the line of duty - of her friends, and of herself. Resigned fatalism or angry bitterness? Or just an act?
  • The meeting felt partially like a test, and partially like a warning not to try and play beyond our means.
  • It does seem like she wants to interact in some amount of good faith - if she didn't, she should've had much more effective approaches than the emotional rollercoaster she put Hazou on.
    • She poked us a bit on relatively minor details, but left the important stuff alone.
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...! She also gave us names for the people in question!
"Anyway, Kenji, Mayumi and Miki are common-borns with family in a swamp village, a river village, and a forest village respectively. They owe me bigtime, especially Kenji, so they're going to be following my scheme to optimise those villages following a set rotation. In six months, if we're all still alive, I'll run the numbers again, and either your scheme makes enough of an impact to take to Lady Biwako or it doesn't.
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If we wanted to, we could pursue them ourselves and try to avoid indebting ourselves to her.

e: For instance... we could pledge to (and follow through on) providing them a crap ton of explosive seals or something to sell to Mist in exchange for being allowed to do as they wish.

(Or we could involve them in Salt-shenanigans)

Then, we could ask Ami what her intention to have them do is (after all, an Ami-optimized plan is worth a lot -- though don't frame it in such a way that we'd owe her a favor for telling us) and then tell them to do that.

We get them to credit the scheme to Ami, so its success or failure is tied to her, thus she both has reason not to interfere (relying also on her amusement at us subjorning her favors) and owes us if it's successful.
 
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MMKII said:
Wonderful! Will concise-ify and add later when I'm free.
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What's your opinion on asking Jiraiya if he's opposed to Hazou talking to Hinata alone? If you don't want to, that's fine, I'll just copy your plan and add it myself.

Here's a Noburi segment, partially stolen from the depths of the conspiracy thread:

Hang out with Noburi
  • Hazou's thoughts
    • Noburi always struggled with feeling inferior to others - first his brother, then Hazou. He got better, but his loss to Hinata must be especially hard on him.
    • He's always avoided the topic of his family. Maybe he feels especially ashamed before them?
    • He did specifically mention his sisters. Perhaps he misses them, but is afraid of rejection?
  • Commiserate with Noburi on being out of the tournament.
    • Good thing Keiko didn't scar us because that'd make winning back Akane harder (serious tone).
      • Once Noburi has suffered enough trying to gently tell us not to get our hopes up, admit was joke.
    • How scary are all the kunoichi we know?
  • Gently bring up his sisters.
    • He mentioned being upset his sisters didn't talk to him after his match.
      • Talk about it? Plans to visit them? Staying in Mist good but temporary opportunity.
    • He can't avoid his family forever. Maybe it's better go on his own terms?
    • In any case, Hazou completely has his back, and is willing to go pretty damn far to help.
 
MMKII said:
Anyways, what should we actually do now?

I proposed this:


The main weakness I see in the above is verbosity and lack of content. A lot of debriefing, not so much anything else. I'm struggling on what to do as far as "Hanging out with Noburi." , and thinking about if there are any other misc. things we should be doing.

(Yes, yes. Gambling license, making explosives, viewing fights, talking to folks. Besides that.)
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It's called scheduling a meeting with Aunt Ren and seeing what we can do for reconciliation. To prevent being social, either bring Jiraiya or Hana along.
 
I feel validated now in naming my Ami plan "The A(m)I Box Experiment". Unfortunately for Ms Mori, time-dilation and a perfect record of everything she did in the encounter is a pretty good social thinker power as well. And if any chapter deserves an in-depth analysis then it's this one.

REDACTED FOR EDITING
 
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Roomba said:
Hang out with Noburi
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Love it. <3

Roomba said:
The meeting felt partially like a test, and partially like a warning not to try and play beyond our means.
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I think so, too.

She should be aware that we are big part of the reason Keiko is not only alive but in a safe place and she can extrapolate from there that we will continue to support her sister for as long as we are alive and in the position to do so. With that in mind, it would not be in her best interests to see us get killed (literally or politically) because we tried to challenge someone out of our league again because that person did not turn out to be friendly like Ami.

This is also why I think the food wasn't poisoned or that she will leak the Ghost Scales to people not already in the know because she should be aware that the jutsu originated from Keiko, and she doesn't want people to take an interest in her before she is ready.
Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if she helped spread our story about this being an IN thing to begin with because it helps muddle things up and because it annoys Ren.

I think the key to analyzing her actions this update is to examine with how they affect Keiko, however indirectly. Why? Because in the interlude we saw her inner thoughts about Keiko (QMs regretting that yet?) and those are a so much more valuable than whatever she play acted for Hazou this update.
 
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Cariyaga said:
e: For instance... we could pledge to (and follow through on) providing them a crap ton of explosive seals or something to sell to Mist in exchange for being allowed to do as they wish.
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Again, literally treason. What happens to the Goketsu clan if a Leaf-nin finds a Goketsu explosive seal on an enemy or even dies because of one?

It might be worth looking into some sort of polymorphic sealing feat which makes it difficult to conclusively identify the master behind a seal or even makes it more difficult to decode it at all. Heck, that seems like the sort of thing Kagome or Jiraiya might know about.
 
This list of bullet points needs some paring down. Open to suggestions for major changes, but I will slice a decent amount of word count off here and there with a hacksaw once I get the spoons to do so in an hour or two.
MMKII said:
Rough draft

WC: HELP
[X] Action Plan: Debriefings and Doctorings
  • Immediately vomit up that food.
    • It could be poisoned with nasty weirdness, and it will probably give you food poisoning anyway!
    • Find a bucket, puke your guts out into it. Store it in a seal for later.
    • Grab some charcoal. Eat a couple handfuls (chew thoroughly) and drink plenty of water on your way back.
  • Debrief Jiraiya
    • OPSEC: Go for a swim in the dirt.
    • Tell him everything, word for word, gesture by gesture.
      • Give the play-by-play of events since the meeting started until now.
      • Don't bias it with initial observations, but do succinctly explain your mental state at each moment in the conversation. Replay your exact body language.
    • After the report, politely offer your own analysis and conclusions.
  • Analysis and Conclusions:
    • Note: These are likely incorrect or inaccurate.
    • Analysis:
      • She did an impeccable job keeping you off balance the entire conversation by switching faces
      • She knew about our Ghost Scales coverup as well as our connection to the Yakuza.
      • She also subtly highlighted at least half a dozen ways she could have owned your ass throughout that conversation. Yet each was at a level we could barely overcome.
        • The intentional lowball offer to buy your soul, killing intent, the barely-trying seduction attempt, the obvious stand in for "poisoned" food (which may be poisoned), her backup, etc.
      • The topics she avoided:
        • Our biggest secrets, time as missing-nin, Skywalkers, Cold Stone killers. Could've easily brought up the last one in particular, but she didn't.
        • Keiko. Not a single conversation thread leading in her direction.
        • Current Mist/Leaf politics. Likely could've gotten something from us, but didn't even try.
      • Verifiable facts and concrete offers:
        • The Yukizome story
        • The offer to test out our uplift ideas
        • What else?
      • Many casual references to death in the line of duty - of her friends, and of herself. Resigned fatalism or angry bitterness? Or just an act?
    • Beyond that, Hazou cannot guess at what level she is playing at. It's possible she was bullshitting us the entire time, or telling the truth on everything, or using this as a teaching experience, or all of that and more.
  • Conclusions:
    • She is extremely talented, and can likely make use of her bloodline to an extent that Keiko will not be able to do for a long time.
    • She is able to switch gears incredibly fast.
    • Seems to make a habit of getting people to owe her favors. Is very proactive about this.
    • The meeting felt partially like a test, and partially like a warning not to try and play beyond our means.
    • It does seem like she wants to interact in some amount of good faith - if she didn't, she should've had much more effective approaches than the emotional rollercoaster she put Hazou on.
    • Hazou needs to up his game. A lot.
  • Ask permission to:
    • Leave and get a full check up by a medic nin.
      • For the food you ate, in case she had contact poison on her hands when she touched you, etc.
    • Talk to Hana about meeting with Ren about Kurosawa stuff.
      • See if we can potentially get some of the Kurosawa clan secret body language training from Hana, instead of figuring it out from first principles.
      • Ren must also be tired of us making her life a living hell, right?
  • Spend the rest of the day hanging out with Noburi
    • Hazou's thoughts
      • Noburi always struggled with feeling inferior to others - first his brother, then Hazou. He got better, but his loss to Hinata must be especially hard on him.
      • He's always avoided the topic of his family. Maybe he feels especially ashamed before them?
      • He did specifically mention his sisters. Perhaps he misses them, but is afraid of rejection?
    • Commiserate with Noburi on being out of the tournament.
      • Good thing Keiko didn't scar us because that'd make winning back Akane harder (serious tone, resolute expression).
        • Might be difficult to joke about this, but good
        • Once Noburi has suffered enough trying to gently tell us not to get our hopes up, admit was joke.
      • So... how scary are all the kunoichi we know?
    • Gently bring up his family.
      • He mentioned being upset his sisters didn't talk to him after his match.
        • Talk about it? Plans to visit them?
      • Maybe it's better to see his family on his own terms?
      • In any case, Hazou completely has his back, and is willing to go pretty damn far to help.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
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Lailoken said:
Again, literally treason. What happens to the Goketsu clan if a Leaf-nin finds a Goketsu explosive seal on an enemy or even dies because of one?

It might be worth looking into some sort of polymorphic sealing feat which makes it difficult to conclusively identify the master behind a seal or even makes it more difficult to decode it at all. Heck, that seems like the sort of thing Kagome or Jiraiya might know about.
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Don't actually care. It can be treason all it wants to be treason :p

e: I mean, we already sent a care package of explosives to our teammates from the fifth event.
 
MadScientist said:
I feel validated now in naming my Ami plan "The A(m)I Box Experiment". Unfortunately for Ms Mori, time-dilation and a perfect record of everything she did in the encounter is a pretty good social thinker power as well. And if any chapter deserves an in-depth analysis then it's this one.
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That was very impressive, in a "can neither confirm nor deny" kind of way. I note the specific vocabulary. Have you had training and/or read any particularly recommendable literature?
 
Velorien said:
That was very impressive, in a "can neither confirm nor deny" kind of way. I note the specific vocabulary. Have you had training and/or read any particularly recommendable literature?
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Not really. I just observed what Ami was doing and what effects it had on Hazou, assumed the effects were the intended effects and then used that to build a narrative of causality.

I've read Cialdini's Influence: Science and Practice (as recommended in the early chapters of MoR), and I've seen things on the internet (eg. a video I saw recently explaining how police interrogations work), but that wasn't really more than side-notes in the analysis.
 
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Hey, if we learn to voluntarily vomit we can use the iron nerve to replicate that in combat. Any ways we can use that other than general grossing people out?
 
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