[Self-Harm] Glibly suggest to Keiko that if she wants to have a positive impact on the world, she can start by being nicer to Neji.

Honest question for the hivemind. A portion of the people here have been spurred into action by chapter 208. I'm curious about the specifics of that chapter that made those people want to engage with this more than when it came up...─*checks*─17ish months ago. Here are some possibilities I've considered:
  1. I changed my opinion about the scale of the Pangolin issue.
  2. The actions I want to take are now in the overton window.
  3. It made the issue into shared knowledge.
  4. I was waiting for a better time to address the issue.
  5. It directly changed my opinion about our ability to affect things.
  6. It made me consider the issue in more detail.
  7. I mostly care because Keiko is upset.
  8. I mostly care because of wider team dynamics.
  9. It seems more relevant to the narrative or story than before.
  10. I failed to convince people previously.
  11. I'm new and didn't know we've discussed this topic before.
  12. It seems like a good opportunity to try to use nukes again.
To be clear, whilst I definitely have my own opinions about where I'd like the story to go, I'm not arguing a point here.

Primarily 3, with a sprinkling of a couple others. The chapter made this problem really difficult to brush aside, and the resultant discussion showed that there was a will not only to deal with this, but pay the price for it.
 

Those thrice-damned :pangolins!

Afternoon:
  • Training from Hell: Day 1
    • We spar with each other.
    • Ask Mari to cast (subtle) Genjutsu on us randomly while we are sparring.
      • We try to spot the subtle inconsistencies and are quizzed on them later.
    • Kagome randomly tossess training explosives at us that we need to dodge as well.
      • Nonlethal, obviously
    • Hard Mode: Do again in a lightly wooded/forested area
      • Touching a shadow (temporary or otherwise) means you die!
      • Kagome traps the area beforehand.

I wonder if this is necessary. Sounds like we're using a lot of words to describe something without any mechanical impact. Maybe just "ask Gai for training from hell", since he offered?

That side, I think I'm mostly ok with your Keiko section. Might try to improve it a bit, but I'd be ok voting for it as is.
 
Honest question for the hivemind. A portion of the people here have been spurred into action by chapter 208. I'm curious about the specifics of that chapter that made those people want to engage with this more than when it came up...─*checks*─17ish months ago. Here are some possibilities I've considered:
  1. I changed my opinion about the scale of the Pangolin issue.
  2. The actions I want to take are now in the overton window.
  3. It made the issue into shared knowledge.
  4. I was waiting for a better time to address the issue.
  5. It directly changed my opinion about our ability to affect things.
  6. It made me consider the issue in more detail.
  7. I mostly care because Keiko is upset.
  8. I mostly care because of wider team dynamics.
  9. It seems more relevant to the narrative or story than before.
  10. I failed to convince people previously.
  11. I'm new and didn't know we've discussed this topic before.
  12. It seems like a good opportunity to try to use nukes again.
To be clear, whilst I definitely have my own opinions about where I'd like the story to go, I'm not arguing a point here.

2, 3, 10

11: It seems likely the Pangolins are going to move on yet another clan, and, pragmatically, this time we have IC knowledge before the fact as well as knowledge of how bad it turned out with Condors.


I would note it has not been this long in-game, and we haven't really had opportunities to do anything about it -- at least not anything that most voters would be willing to consider.
 
Those thrice-damned :pangolins!

Oh, god fucking damnit.

I wonder if this is necessary. Sounds like we're using a lot of words to describe something without any mechanical impact. Maybe just "ask Gai for training from hell", since he offered?

The training from hell bits AFAIK are mostly interesting training ideas that may or may not be fun to write.

The benefit of adding detail in here is that it shaves some spoons off of the QM side of things. Asking for "Training from Hell from Gai." is a bit vague IMO.

There was some vague discussion about linking narrative training to actual XP expenditure IIRC? I wouldnt mind voting in [ex] Train the shit out of ourselves with Team Gai, I guess, but that doesnt seem as exciting.

That side, I think I'm mostly ok with your Keiko section. Might try to improve it a bit, but I'd be ok voting for it as is.
 
Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Mari stopped eating creaky chicken?

Which, by the way, is a real dish. Or, at least, it was. Back when I lived in New York, lo these many moons ago, there was a Chinese place down the street from me named Empire Szechuan Gardens. Creaky chicken was their house specialty, and it was simply heaven on a plate. Unfortunately, ESG went out of business and nowhere else that I've ever found makes it. :(

Clearly, her voyage of personal development in pacifism and atonement has led her to vegetarianism. Soon, the pangolin parasite will finish manifesting and render her exclusively insectivorous.

-also, pregnant women should avoid high doses of ginger and the handling of raw chakra-poultry.

Oh, no, Kagome's protective instincts are going to turn him into an absolute monster when he figures it out. He is going to insist on preemptively nuking every cobblestone that so much as looks at her funny. He might start literally barking at strangers.



I could definitely see 'Cooking with Kagome' being a survival training course in how to live off the land in gourmet style. 'Remember children, there's never a good reason to let good monster gibbets left over from explosive traps go to waste.'

Step 1: identify the poisoned ingredients the stinking stinkers have left out to trick you. By the way, this course will be graded ablatively.



Would be cool to get some thoughts on Summon geopolitics as well. What do the Toads think of this? Would they be interested in persuading the Pangolins to be less oppressive, and how much leverage do they have? (military strength, social ties, trade)

I find it interesting that everybody seems to be assuming that the inherently passively defensive insectivores aren't the least belligerent clan. The Summon Path may well be just as or even more crapsack than the Human Path.



We know that Pangolin High Command is getting itchy for expansionism again. Is it all of Pangolin High Command? Is it just Commissar Panteon and one or two others? We don't know. I think we can take a day of in universe time to figure this out, since it may serve to inform us of effective solutions or more surgically precise strategies of dealing with the problem.

The core driver seems to be economic. They appear to be immortal, or at least so long-lived as to make little difference. Because of that and their natural desire to reproduce they have had to resort to pretty intense population control measures, which we know have caused resentment and friction. The need to clamp down on that naturally leads to tying reproduction and eventually all privileges and social standing to success in contributing to the state's maintenance of order, which naturally leads to militarism. That handily also produces a stream of open slots.

It seems to come down to Lebensraum. The Toads probably have their own spazio vitale.

It's darkly humorous to see attitudes which come across as, "Oh, we're going to have to add a subsection solving the Pangolins in the next update." This isn't just a matter of ideology or society. It's the almost inevitable result of fundamental economic realities. There's no diplomatic solution here. Any real change is going to involve either lots and lots and lots of dead people, or a change in the fundamental economic realities.

Hey, let's suggest to Keiko that we make the multiverse a better place by afflicting her allies with some sort of incurable, progressively wasting and debilitating plague. Perhaps ask Kagome about the wisdom of designing a seal which yanks enormous quantities of insects straight from the Out?



Awwww

E: Honoka is picking up Kagome-speak and it is ADORABLE.

Kagome is going to end up inspiring an entire generation of teenage slang.
 
Just want to throw my 2 cents in about our adorable 7th path problem.

Not totally sure Hazou should be the one to address the Pangolin issue just yet since Keiko seems to be working up to it.

I think we should let Keiko have her talk with Mari first, and then let Mari float it up to Jaraiya? I'd rather just let her know we'll support her whatever she decides to do.
 
Actually, does anyone know what the zub / glorp counting thing is meant to do? Some kind of gentle pre-introduction to symbolic math?
 
It's darkly humorous to see attitudes which come across as, "Oh, we're going to have to add a subsection solving the Pangolins in the next update." This isn't just a matter of ideology or society. It's the almost inevitable result of fundamental economic realities. There's no diplomatic solution here. Any real change is going to involve either lots and lots and lots of dead people, or a change in the fundamental economic realities.

I mean, "Solve the Pangolins" from our perspective can be pretty flexible. As long as they stop conquering shit for the time being, I'm sure we can begin thinking of solutions.

(Of course, Becomus Godus would do it...)

Actually, does anyone know what the zub / glorp counting thing is meant to do? Some kind of gentle pre-introduction to symbolic math?
Basic algebra more or less. Getting the gears started on symbolic thinking.

Just want to throw my 2 cents in about our adorable 7th path problem.

Not totally sure Hazou should be the one to address the Pangolin issue just yet since Keiko seems to be working up to it.

I think we should let Keiko have her talk with Mari first, and then let Mari float it up to Jaraiya? I'd rather just let her know we'll support her whatever she decides to do.
Keiko already talked to Mari
 
It's darkly humorous to see attitudes which come across as, "Oh, we're going to have to add a subsection solving the Pangolins in the next update." This isn't just a matter of ideology or society. It's the almost inevitable result of fundamental economic realities. There's no diplomatic solution here. Any real change is going to involve either lots and lots and lots of dead people, or a change in the fundamental economic realities.

Is this in any way an argument against attempting to postpone yet more genocide until we can do more about it? As it turns out, the Pangolins can't just maurade across the 7th path without our help.
 
Last edited:
Is this in any way an argument for attempting to postpone yet more genocide until we can do more about it? As it turns out, the Pangolins can't just maurade across the 7th path without our help.
Can they? Honest question: they've overrun the Condors and are currently rampaging through the Hyenas...that's a lot of ground they've gotten. They probably won't go as quickly without us but that doesn't mean they can't continue expanding, albeit more slowly.
 
Pangolin population control issue is likely endemic to all the summon clans, especially if bigger bodies mean greater calories.

Humans have the opposite problem. There isn't enough of them.
 
I mean, "Solve the Pangolins" from our perspective can be pretty flexible. As long as they stop conquering shit for the time being, I'm sure we can begin thinking of solutions.

(Of course, Becomus Godus would do it...)


Basic algebra more or less. Getting the gears started on symbolic thinking.


Keiko already talked to Mari

-except that they have recently withdrawn the resented population control measures and begun gearing up for massive expansion. That's a social juggernaut with a heck of a lot of momentum and just trying to stick it back in the can is the sort of thing which sparks self-reinforcing civil wars and mass uprisings.



Is this in any way an argument against attempting to postpone yet more genocide until we can do more about it? As it turns out, the Pangolins can't just maurade across the 7th path without our help.

Regardless of whether Keiko helps or not, they're at a point where they have no choice but to try. If they try and fail they'll at least have killed off a major chunk of their most dangerous overpopulation and gotten the leadership some breathing room that way.

In perhaps the most apt use of the phrase ever: Team Uplift has already gotten the ball rolling.
 
Last edited:
I have added "Hazou gives Jiraiya a packet of all seals he's ever seen (with background info)" to the Off-screen stuff in my plan.
 
There's probably going to be some limit to scalability even with shadow clones, but there may be a way to redirect some of the awful towards Uplift goals in both realms.

The Human path has a problem of too many chakra beasts and not enough people. The Summon path has a problem of too many people and not enough chakra beats. Summon pangolin soldiers and have them fan out to capture chakra beasts around human settlements. The beasts are disabled by being drained to the edge of death by a Wakahisa, who then provides the summoner with chakra to summon even more pangolins. Humans break off whatever useful bits the chakra beasts have and the pangolins take the rest back to the summon realm where they eat the insects and trade everything else. This could easily provide a much higher ROI than military conquest while encouraging neighbors to not gang up and beat down the pangolins.

We should look into ways to transfer larger amounts of people and material between the paths, and preferably without being solely dependent on the summoner.
 
Thanks, guys. We'll take you up on that. I believe Shadow Clone is nailed down -- pretty sure both of the others signed off -- but we can definitely use help. Among other things, you could suggest justu / seals / etc that Jiraiya might arrange for you to get before the tournament. We have one on the table for Keiko that I believe is signed off, but the others are still question marks.
So....

...

...

Rasengan?!

Ahem. Anyway, is it a safe assumption that these techniques may be fairly high powered?

!
Are you implying that making better plans affects our talent coefficient on a long term basis?
 
-also, pregnant women should avoid high doses of ginger and the handling of raw chakra-poultry.

Oh, no, Kagome's protective instincts are going to turn him into an absolute monster when he figures it out. He is going to insist on preemptively nuking every cobblestone that so much as looks at her funny. He might start literally barking at strangers.
Holy crap, this is the best guess so far. Goketsu is going to be expanding in six or seven months.
 
Put together an outline will be updating based on discussion


[X] Action plan: Training from Hell

  • Jiraiya
    • Give hima copy of every seal we've seen.
    • Tell him about Shadow clone proposal
    • Find out what our training schedule will be like
  • Check on seal license
  • Research casino seals
  • Game night
    • Prepare to have a game night for the end of the week
    • Invite ISC, Team Gai and other clanless ninja
  • Hana
    • When she arrives have the conversation about Akane
    • Talk about uplift philosophy
      • Also talk about the issues we have with the pangolins
      • If we could sell seals we could give up Pangolin gold
      • Would she be willing to scribe some to help?
  • Kei
    • Let her know Hazō is deeply upset by her revaluations
    • Suggest she try to do some research into pangolins politics
    • Find out if everyone is onboard with there expansionist policies
    • Try to gain access to the great Library

Added a section on Kei and expanded the Hana discussion
 
You know what would be terrifying for Kei?

Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique.
That's a great idea for Kei to try to work on. It might be difficult, but the good news is that she doesn't have to start out with a thousand shuriken/kunai clones at once. She can start with one and work her way up.

Plus it might be a useful way to still throw things when she's caught without weapons or runs out of ammo.
 
Back
Top