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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Roomba said:
I'd like to do both, but I'm not sure what order and goal split is optimal.
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Yeah, to be clear here:

Given the recent chapter, and that Keiko seems to be staying in Super Saiyan Self-Delusion , I personally do not see any long conversation with her about this going anywhere.

I would be willing to put in a section/scene at the beginning (before the training) thats essentially "Hey, you are right that these are problems, and I want to talk about this later with everyone. I am relieved you have brought this up, etc. " in a non patronizing way. Thats the limit of how much good I think can be accomplished on that front. Keiko isn't convinced by words , she is convinced by data points.

I think a decent chunk of whatever an at-length conversation would've aimed to do was taken care of by Hazou's conversation with everyone in the past update.

(You will note that, Keiko interrupted multiple times to the contrary, with pedantic details that did not actually refute Hazous points, were he to rephrase his exact argument a bit more carefully.)

I don't think anything else on top of that (with her personally) will do that much in the way of actually solving the problem. I would be more inclined to talk to Noburi alone about this for a little bit to sort of see where he stands on things or something.
 
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MMKII said:
Yeah, to be clear here:

Given the recent chapter, and that Keiko seems to be staying in Super Saiyan Self-Delusion , I personally do not see any long conversation with her about this going anywhere.

I would be willing to put in a scene at the beginning (before the training) thats essentially "Hey, you are right that these are problems, and I want to talk about this later with everyone. I am relieved you have brought this up, etc. " in a non patronizing way. Thats the limit of how much good I think can be accomplished on that front. Keiko isn't convinced by words , she is convinced by data points.

I think a decent chunk of whatever an at-length conversation would've aimed to do was taken care of by Hazou's conversation with everyone in the past update.

(You will note that, Keiko interrupted multiple times to the contrary, with pedantic details that did not actually refute Hazous points, were he to rephrase his exact argument a bit more carefully.)

I don't think anything else on top of that (with her personally) will do that much in the way of actually solving the problem. I would be more inclined to talk to Noburi alone about this for a little bit to sort of see where he stands on things or something.
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That's... not really the impression I got from that exchange. It was more like Hazou and Keiko playing out their normal dynamic, where Keiko is the sceptical and pragmatic voice of reason. At least from a point, she was clearly doing it half-jokingly. I don't think this is a sign of self-delusion, so much as her normal pessimism.

We can't avoid bringing her on-board with this. Do you think she'll be so resistant to the idea of doing something about the Pangolins that Hazou won't be able to convince her? What would be the next step, recruiting the rest of the clan to help break through her stubbornness?

My model of Keiko right now has the following thoughts on this issue: that it's something for her to just deal with, with the Pangolins being her responsibility; that her feelings are unimportant relative to the benefit the clan derives from the Pangolin deal; that nothing can really be done about it. Plus her normal self-esteem problems, where she likely considers herself worthless outside of her status as the summoner. So the point of the conversation would be to counter these.
 
eaglejarl said:
"Whatever. The point is, we completely undid the Exams. All of the progress that everyone had made, we erased it except for the people we allowed to stay in. In particular, we completely dominated Team Downfall. For that matter, ISC did so well mostly because of us. They scored well in the third event on their own, they got the fourth one only because the proctors didn't disqualify them for bodyjacking a proctor—"
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It's a shame Hazou didn't mention they were the highest scoring actual rookie team - unlike ISC who keep trying to fool people into believing that this was their first exam.

eaglejarl said:
"Man, you guys were great," Jiraiya said, striding up and down the room, alternating sips of the water and bites of the chicken and/or dango, tossing each skewer aside as he finished it. "Blew out the Exams, made all the other villages look like crap, got me some amazing trade deals, got me a lead. Can't say anything of course—classified, have to kill you before I told you and then kill myself afterwards! But still, it's a lead. A lead!!! And, with my usual brilliance and perceptiveness, not to mention my incredible prowess in all things martial, I have—"
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Hazou must be so confused not being the Number One Walking OPSEC Blunder in the room for once.
 
MMKII said:
Given the recent chapter, and that Keiko seems to be staying in Super Saiyan Self-Delusion , I personally do not see any long conversation with her about this going anywhere.

(...)

(You will note that, Keiko interrupted multiple times to the contrary, with pedantic details that did not actually refute Hazous points, were he to rephrase his exact argument a bit more carefully.)
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It's curious that we read the same scene so much differently.
To me it looked like Keiko's mood had actually improved slightly after talking to Mari-sensei earlier and after hearing Hazou talk about his more concrete uplift goals and fixing the pangolin issue. That is what I got from her teasing tone later in the scene anyway, plus the fact that I read her initial disagreement more as a test that Hazou actually thought about what he was going to say and whether he is willing to pull through.

So with that in mind, I think she is amenable to discussing this without shooting us down after all if we show her we are serious about it.

E: So we gonna ask Mari about her pregnancy or what? It doesn't feel like right that we went through a full update without Hazou's words making it awkward for the people around him.
 
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Tua said:
It's a shame Hazou didn't mention they were the highest scoring actual rookie team - unlike ISC who keep trying to fool people into believing that this was their first exam.
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I mean, while calling us "rookies" is technically correct, we're likely the most combat-experienced team in the exam by a large margin.

Though it does make me wonder how ISC managed to avoid being promoted in the previous exam. It's not like we helped them that much this time. I'd have accepted that it might've been mostly punching, which isn't their specialty, but they didn't have any trouble taking out our Red Team in round 2 of the fifth event, so clearly it's not a major problem for them.
 
Cariyaga said:
Incidentally, @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail would you like help with Shadow Clone mechanics or do you have those already laid out?

I'm sure we would be happy to help.

e: Also, is there any way to affect our Talent Coefficient?
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MMKII said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail

I echo the above re: Mechanics stuff. Many of us dont really mind hashing these out (and it seems like it'd save you some work ;)).
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Thanks, guys. We'll take you up on that. I believe Shadow Clone is nailed down -- pretty sure both of the others signed off -- but we can definitely use help. Among other things, you could suggest justu / seals / etc that Jiraiya might arrange for you to get before the tournament. We have one on the table for Keiko that I believe is signed off, but the others are still question marks.

Inferno Vulpix said:
Chosen for the Grave isn't canon.
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Are you sure? Maybe you just haven't run into us yet. ;>

MadScientist said:
Oh, speaking of TYS, @eaglejarl do we get any points for the way we trashed the fifth event?
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Nope, sorry. They get harder to get as you get more of them, and you guys already have quite a few.

MMKII said:
Are we in debt still or not?
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Good question. You can put "ask Mari to clarify" on the plan.

Tua said:
Would TYS still apply to resist Intimidation? You can be an idealist but still be hard to intimidate because of the stuff you have seen.
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Not a bad idea. I'll check.

faflec said:
Clearly we need to attain a level beyond the Super Saiyan Self-Delusion! :D
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9000!
 
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faflec said:
Wait, she did this?
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It was implied pretty heavily here in that the scene that happened one hour before the uplift discussion:

eaglejarl said:
"It is good to see you again, Mari-sensei," Keiko said. "I missed having you to talk to."

Mari smiled, but eyed her adopted daughter carefully. "Good to see you again, too. Sounds like there's some things you want to talk about. Let's get you cleaned up and stuffed full of something hot and delicious and then we'll sit in the garden and catch up, okay?"

"Thank you."
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E:
Roomba said:
Though it does make me wonder how ISC managed to avoid being promoted in the previous exam. It's not like we helped them that much this time. I'd have accepted that it might've been mostly punching, which isn't their specialty, but they didn't have any trouble taking out our Red Team in round 2 of the fifth event, so clearly it's not a major problem for them.
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Maybe Leaf Command decided that having them dominate the next exams in Mist would be better for Leaf's overall image as the strongest Village, and had them drop out/fake defeat after it was clear that Naruto and Sasuke would definitely make it into the tournament and show off enough at home?

(Also, our Red Team had at least Moderate Consequences.)
 
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Tua said:
It was implied pretty heavily here in that the scene that happened one hour before the uplift discussion:
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Ahhhhh you are right!

I mean, I still think shes being delusional here, but shes probably in a much better mood.

Roomba said:
That's... not really the impression I got from that exchange. It was more like Hazou and Keiko playing out their normal dynamic, where Keiko is the sceptical and pragmatic voice of reason. At least from a point, she was clearly doing it half-jokingly. I don't think this is a sign of self-delusion, so much as her normal pessimism.

We can't avoid bringing her on-board with this. Do you think she'll be so resistant to the idea of doing something about the Pangolins that Hazou won't be able to convince her? What would be the next step, recruiting the rest of the clan to help break through her stubbornness?

My model of Keiko right now has the following thoughts on this issue: that it's something for her to just deal with, with the Pangolins being her responsibility; that her feelings are unimportant relative to the benefit the clan derives from the Pangolin deal; that nothing can really be done about it. Plus her normal self-esteem problems, where she likely considers herself worthless outside of her status as the summoner. So the point of the conversation would be to counter these.
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@Roomba I suppose its just a difference in methodology in how we want to approach this. I consider it less likely that we will convince Keiko to take action on this (and she may indeed write off our attempts at convincing her we are serious about the Uplift stuff as Words Words Words) ...at the same time I find it significantly more likely that Jiraiya would be able to sway her on this front AND we cant really act (well, we could, but that way lies consequences) on this without his go ahead.

Solution: Emulate the same situation that solved this issue the last time this was brought up.

(In fact, I think that pointing out to her that a conversation with J solved everything last time we had Pangolin Problems is an *excellent* way to convince her to bring this up to him with us at dinner. I will put this in when I can edit my plan. I think that takes care of any issues of her agency/getting her onboard with this.)

OTOH: I dont think we need to do anything beyond that. Whats the point of the convo really? Get Kei on board while respecting her agency here? The above solves that. I dont think we need to make sure she is okay(Mari has talked to her already) and I dont think we need to preach to her about non-pangolin uplift stuff.

So, if our only goal is getting her onboard, surely that does the trick?


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Uplift Stuff:

Not only did Hazou point some stuff out last chapter to this effect, but he layed out some specific points we wanted to address. Any further convincing is not possible IMO, we havent *done* anything to prove otherwise, and talking about how we WILL do stuff is just Words Words Words, and we have already done so last chapter even.

So on this particular facet, FMPOV:

Every time I have been party to a situation where the issue is along the lines of "Talk is cheap, are we going to start acting?" it has been a Ludicrously Bad IdeaTM​ to return to the issue without making tangible physical progress. I don't think we need to come back to this particular issue before we actually do some stuff.

I want to get the ball rolling on some shit, and I had a pile of proposals sitting around in my head that I want to write up (along with a pile of jutsu and stunts I promised to do a week ago, along with some omakes, etc) but I havent been able to get to it because spoons and sleep deprivation. Oh, and I suppose I might as well compile a bunch of ideas people already had into one big post while I'm at it, makes it easy for everyone if theres one central repository.

I think we have a grant to write too... :whistle:
 
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eaglejarl said:
Among other things, you could suggest justu / seals / etc that Jiraiya might arrange for you to get before the tournament. We have one on the table for Keiko that I believe is signed off, but the others are still question marks.
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Alright. Let's see. They would need to be things that are useful at low levels (nothing that rolls jutsu level vs Athletics to attack, for example) or that Hazou could research. They would need to be things that aid direct combat. And most of all, they would need to be things that it makes sense for Leaf to have (eg. its existence wouldn't change the outcome of the battle of the gods or something).

That in mind, here are some thoughts.
  • Doton: Earth Board Technique Moves a rigid patch of ground, carrying whatever is on that patch around the battlefield. Can aid in the user's movement, interfere with enemy movement, or transport inanimate objects such as seals. Spend a supplementary action and some chakra, get either:
    • + jutsu/3 to own Athletics this round.
    • - jutsu/3 to a single enemy's Athletics this round.
    • An inanimate object that can fit on 1m square moves with Athletics equal to jutsu level.
  • Suiton: Humidity Wall Technique Does exactly the same as Wind Wall by manipulating water vapour in the air. The RW malus is only 1*Effect instead of 2*Effect under normal conditions, but becomes 2*Effect when used in mist.
  • Adrenaline Blast Technique A medical jutsu that does exactly what it sounds like. The user gets (jutsu AB) tokens per cast, which can be used to get a free tag on a physical skill. Requires MedNin 10 to learn.
 
MMKII said:
@Roomba I suppose its just a difference in methodology in how we want to approach this. I consider it less likely that we will convince Keiko to take action on this (and she may indeed write off our attempts at convincing her we are serious about the Uplift stuff as Words Words Words) ...at the same time I find it significantly more likely that Jiraiya would be able to sway her on this front AND we cant really act (well, we could, but that way lies consequences) on this without his go ahead.

Solution: Emulate the same situation that solved this issue the last time this was brought up.

(In fact, I think that pointing out to her that a conversation with J solved everything last time we had Pangolin Problems is an *excellent* way to convince her to bring this up to him with us at dinner. I will put this in when I can edit my plan. I think that takes care of any issues of her agency/getting her onboard with this.)

OTOH: I dont think we need to do anything beyond that. Whats the point of the convo really? Get Kei on board while respecting her agency here? The above solves that. I dont think we need to make sure she is okay(Mari has talked to her already) and I dont think we need to preach to her about non-pangolin uplift stuff.

So, if our only goal is getting her onboard, surely that does the trick?


______________________________________________
Uplift Stuff:

Not only did Hazou point some stuff out last chapter to this effect, but he layed out some specific points we wanted to address. Any further convincing is not possible IMO, we havent *done* anything to prove otherwise, and talking about how we WILL do stuff is just Words Words Words, and we have already done so last chapter even.

So on this particular facet, FMPOV:

Every time I have been party to a situation where the issue is along the lines of "Talk is cheap, are we going to start acting?" it has been a Ludicrously Bad IdeaTM to return to the issue without making tangible physical progress. I don't think we need to come back to this particular issue before we actually do some stuff.

I want to get the ball rolling on some shit, and I had a pile of proposals sitting around in my head that I want to write up (along with a pile of jutsu and stunts I promised to do a week ago, along with some omakes, etc) but I havent been able to get to it because spoons and sleep deprivation. Oh, and I suppose I might as well compile a bunch of ideas people already had into one big post while I'm at it, makes it easy for eeveryone if theres one central repository.

I think we have a grant to write too... :whistle:
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I agree that part of what we wanted to accomplish was covered by Hazou this update. But then, when it comes to the Pangolin problem, convincing Keiko to do something about it is as much action as Hazou can manage. I don't think Hazou essentially going "Let's go fix it now!" is really Words Words Words.

I suppose that, from a purely practical perspective, you can argue that Mari took care of Keiko's emotional state, and it's now up to us to make progress in solving the underlying problem. Still, I think Hazou having a bit of a heart-to-heart with Keiko about this would make for a nice scene for @Velorien to write (and a happy QM makes for a happy Quest), and would benefit them both as characters. I wouldn't mind Hazou reflecting on the validity of Keiko's analysis on-screen, and how that should guide his actions going forward. More broadly, Keiko has a tendency to hyper-focus on a single person as her emotional support (first Ami, then Mari), and giving her more people she feels like she can confide in should be healthy for her.

I do think this is largely a narrative preference on my side, so I'll probably just steal your plan, modify to my liking, and let the voters decide. :cool:
 
Roomba said:
Still, I think Hazou having a bit of a heart-to-heart with Keiko about this would make for a nice scene for @Velorien to write (and a happy QM makes for a happy Quest), and would benefit them both as characters.
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*shrugs*

On a meta level, I'm sort of leaning towards giving him less to chew on for spoon conservation reasons. Do as thou wilt.

Roomba said:
I do think this is largely a narrative preference on my side, so I'll probably just steal your plan, modify to my liking, and let the voters decide. :cool:
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Okay :V
 
Honest question for the hivemind. A portion of the people here have been spurred into action by chapter 208. I'm curious about the specifics of that chapter that made those people want to engage with this more than when it came up...─*checks*─17ish months ago. Here are some possibilities I've considered:
  1. I changed my opinion about the scale of the Pangolin issue.
  2. The actions I want to take are now in the overton window.
  3. It made the issue into shared knowledge.
  4. I was waiting for a better time to address the issue.
  5. It directly changed my opinion about our ability to affect things.
  6. It made me consider the issue in more detail.
  7. I mostly care because Keiko is upset.
  8. I mostly care because of wider team dynamics.
  9. It seems more relevant to the narrative or story than before.
  10. I failed to convince people previously.
  11. I'm new and didn't know we've discussed this topic before.
  12. It seems like a good opportunity to try to use nukes again.
To be clear, whilst I definitely have my own opinions about where I'd like the story to go, I'm not arguing a point here.
 
Veedrac said:
Honest question for the hivemind. A portion of the people here have been spurred into action by chapter 208. I'm curious about the specifics of that chapter that made those people want to engage with this more than when it came up...─*checks*─17ish months ago. Here are some possibilities I've considered:
  1. I changed my opinion about the scale of the Pangolin issue.
  2. The actions I want to take are now in the overton window.
  3. It made the issue into shared knowledge.
  4. I was waiting for a better time to address the issue.
  5. It directly changed my opinion about our ability to affect things.
  6. It made me consider the issue in more detail.
  7. I mostly care because Keiko is upset.
  8. I mostly care because of wider team dynamics.
  9. It seems more relevant to the narrative or story than before.
  10. I failed to convince people previously.
  11. I'm new and didn't know we've discussed this topic before.
  12. It seems like a good opportunity to try to use nukes again.
To be clear, whilst I definitely have my own opinions about where I'd like the story to go, I'm not arguing a point here.
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I wasn't actively contributing in thread at the time, so mostly that I suppose.
 
Veedrac said:
Honest question for the hivemind. A portion of the people here have been spurred into action by chapter 208. I'm curious about the specifics of that chapter that made those people want to engage with this more than when it came up...─*checks*─17ish months ago. Here are some possibilities I've considered:
  1. I changed my opinion about the scale of the Pangolin issue.
  2. The actions I want to take are now in the overton window.
  3. It made the issue into shared knowledge.
  4. I was waiting for a better time to address the issue.
  5. It directly changed my opinion about our ability to affect things.
  6. It made me consider the issue in more detail.
  7. I mostly care because Keiko is upset.
  8. I mostly care because of wider team dynamics.
  9. It seems more relevant to the narrative or story than before.
  10. I failed to convince people previously.
  11. I'm new and didn't know we've discussed this topic before.
  12. It seems like a good opportunity to try to use nukes again.
To be clear, whilst I definitely have my own opinions about where I'd like the story to go, I'm not arguing a point here.
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1, 4, and 9. 7 if you drop the word "Mostly".
 
Edited some Keiko stuff in.

Thoughts?

MMKII said:
Word Count: Will count later.. Estimate: ~400
[X] Action Plan: That Very Same Day

Before Lunch:

  • Talk to Keiko
    • Keiko is also right: we need to stop digging. We are in a better position now and don't have to rely on bloodmoney.
      • Keiko is right to be concerned with the Pangolins' expansionism and is correct that it is at odds with our philosophy. Her description was worse than we imagined.
      • It was Hazou's idea to trade for Skywalkers afterall, so the blame rests partly with him.
    • We want to bring the issue of the Pangolins up to Jiraiya at dinner(See below:pangolins)
      • Remember: last time we had an issue his insight proved sufficient to solve it very quickly and to our satisfacation.
    • Offer emotional support to Keiko as needed and sincerely thank her for bringing this to our attention

Afternoon:
  • Training from Hell: Day 1
    • We spar with each other.
    • Ask Mari to cast (subtle) Genjutsu on us randomly while we are sparring.
      • We try to spot the subtle inconsistencies and are quizzed on them later.
    • Kagome randomly tossess training explosives at us that we need to dodge as well.
      • Nonlethal, obviously
    • Hard Mode: Do again in a lightly wooded/forested area
      • Touching a shadow (temporary or otherwise) means you die!
      • Kagome traps the area beforehand.

Evening/Dinner:

  • Talk with Jiraiya
    • Pangolins
      • Talk to Jiraiya about the Pangolin's expansionist tendencies and how this might present a problem for us
        • Obvious morality issues with supporting them in this.
        • Practical issues:
          • Some anti-Pangolin alliance of summoners coming for Keiko.
          • Breaks any remaining OPSEC on Skytowers.
          • Destabilizing the seventh path.
      • Analyze the situation
        • How much of this is likely one or two zealots in Pangolin High Command?
        • How much of this is Pantsaa?
        • Is this normal for summon clans?
          • What do the Toads think?
          • Do the Toads have any leverage here?
    • Training
      • We were promised "some tricks", we'd like to discuss possibilities within the next day.
      • Ask if Jiraiya himself could spend an hour or so a day training us.
        • Otherwise can he help us design some Training from Hell
      • Shadow Clones
        • We suspect the Shadow Clones transfer memories (Itachi vs Naruto).
        • Can we learn this, and use it for better training over the break?
        • Noburi's bloodline gives effectively massive chakra reserves.
    • Finances
      • Hazou has a thousand ideas for improving Leaf as a whole and the clan's position specifically.
        • Only constraint: Money
      • Check in on seal licenses: did the Merchant council approve Hazou and Kagome?
      • How do we approach tournament betting with Mist Yakuza?
        • Should we do a handful of missions (clearing chakra beasts, etc) to get more seed money for this?
      • We need to become independent of the monthly Pangolin gold, ASAP.
        • Can we get a quick summary of our monthly expenditures and how much debt we currently owe?
Misc.(Off Screen)

  • Hazou and Kagome research Casino seals
  • Hazou makes a decent amount of storage seals (replace damaged ones) and explosive tags.
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Veedrac said:
Honest question for the hivemind. A portion of the people here have been spurred into action by chapter 208. I'm curious about the specifics of that chapter that made those people want to engage with this more than when it came up...─*checks*─17ish months ago. Here are some possibilities I've considered:
  1. I changed my opinion about the scale of the Pangolin issue.
  2. The actions I want to take are now in the overton window.
  3. It made the issue into shared knowledge.
  4. I was waiting for a better time to address the issue.
  5. It directly changed my opinion about our ability to affect things.
  6. It made me consider the issue in more detail.
  7. I mostly care because Keiko is upset.
  8. I mostly care because of wider team dynamics.
  9. It seems more relevant to the narrative or story than before.
  10. I failed to convince people previously.
  11. I'm new and didn't know we've discussed this topic before.
  12. It seems like a good opportunity to try to use nukes again.
To be clear, whilst I definitely have my own opinions about where I'd like the story to go, I'm not arguing a point here.
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I'm #7, yeah.
 
Short term #7, we need functional Keiko on both personal and strategic levels, plus must protecc the cuteh.

Long-term I agree Pangos are an issue but it's one I think we can wait at least a couple months off, though if opportunity shows up to moderate them that'd be great.
 
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