- Location
- florida
Probably not because of her responsibility to her city and other people.
But in general yeah. 50/50?
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
But in general yeah. 50/50?
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Not mentioning de-Witching?
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
It's been a while since I've caught up, but given what I've been reading here, I gather that we've taken Ayase and Luca off of the "Kill or Gem on sight" notice.
I eagerly look forward to seeing how we plan to handle negotiating with them when they arrive.
I eagerly look forward to seeing how we plan to handle negotiating with them when they arrive.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Riona likely already knows we're investigating that, based on being interested in her power, the existence of our Clear Seed, and our general personality if it's indeed not an act.
@Always Happening Hahaha no we're rockin' em. Mami's decree.
"I like this, come on everyone, agree with it!"
You don't get to decide what "everyone seems to want".
If we like it we'll vote for it, else we'll continue to debate and try to improve it. That's how the voting system works.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Oh my god, fuck off, I wasn't demanding anything, I was simply olive branching for people to stop fucking bickering at the sight of a vote I think everyone would appreciate, it was a call to turn to a clean fucking page of talking.
Jesus tapdancing Christ.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
They're the two girls from Kazumi Magica who share a body and collect Soul Gems as jewelry.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
BTW, we could attempt to shrug off the fact her plane leaves tomorrow by offering to buy her another ticket. Or fly her back.
Ironically that's the sort of thing that's said to someone in Riona's position right now.
Unless Firn's massively overhauled them, the social part will be as easy as asking why they're collecting Gems.
We can Gem them as soon as they let us know they're literally crazy.
She's a Soul Manipulator, not a Seer.
Ironically that's the sort of thing that's said to someone in Riona's position right now.
The collect Soul Gems because they're shiny. They're also not that strong.
Unless Firn's massively overhauled them, the social part will be as easy as asking why they're collecting Gems.
We can Gem them as soon as they let us know they're literally crazy.
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
You may also know them as 'The Soujus': They're two magical girls from Kazumi Magica who did the fusion dance. Their hobbies include bodykilling magical girls to take their Soul Gems as trophies, and they're expected in Mitakihara within the next couple days. Given that they're "You steal people's souls" and not "You steal people's souls and make them your slaves", I'm wondering how we plan to go about turning them into our allies, since gemming them would be a failure state.
(ed: ninja)
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I feel like we're going to get laughed at with this one, that or maybe a 'you really are an idiot' headshake.
I mean, it still might work out well given those, and I may vote for this with a little refinement, but just saying, that' where I think this will end up.
I think that one was directed at me actually, and it does affect my point a little.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
[x] Keep Rionna talking.
-[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?
[x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
-[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
--[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
-[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?
[x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
-[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
--[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
[x] Godwinson
For now until Redshirt's draft is refined.
For now until Redshirt's draft is refined.
Something to keep in mind about statements like this.
Rionna is a soul manipulator... and she's every power from every shade she's ever taken. Probably not a seer because they seem so rare and impossible, but who knows?
But do not assume there is any power she cannot call upon. A teleporting shade? An anti-magic shade? A healing shade? A mind control shade? Who knows, but we haven't seen the merest percentage of what she might be able to do.
kinigget
Best Demon
- Location
- People's Republic of Portland
Rionna is "I protect people by eliminating terrible people the only way I can, then use their souls to do it better"Given that they're "You steal people's souls" and not "You steal people's souls and make them your slaves", I'm wondering how we plan to go about turning them into our allies, since gemming them would be a failure state.
The Soujus are "we like the shiny rocks"
Not even remotely comparable
[X] Roomba
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Word of Firn is he'll rewrite the Soujous on some level like he did the Pleiades, so don't assume anything.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I am literally writing it as a compromise vote to try and stop the arguing. Please stop picking fights over it, and instead, if you dislike it or have issues with it... please tell me what they are! So I can improve it! That's what drafts are for!!!
Also, for the record: Yes, I absolutely do want to attempt social with the Soujous. And even if they're still totally crazy in Firn's take, I'll advocate for disabling them humanely and putting them in our asylum with Airi, not gemsmashing or permagemming them.
- Location
- Potato land
Is there any reason for this deception? Why not just end the meeting, and then go meet with everyone normally? The prospect scares me, because we don't know for a fact that Rionna's not immune to timestop for some bullshit reason or another (in fact, if we want to attack her, we should try to carefully test this first), or as @Onmur noted, Homura unknowingly running into a shade might pull Rionna into timestop, or any other amount of unknown unknowns present against someone with her power trip us up.
Stop: Cease and desist
- Location
- Britain
cease and desist
Thread locked for review.
OK.
I'm not a mod, I'm an Operator, and that means that sometimes I get to abuse my power.
I'm not happy with the way the thread has gone. The thread is going to stay locked until I have time to sit down -hopefully by my tomorrow- and go through it properly. The thread culture is a mess, and I need to fix that beyond adherence to SV's rules.
I'm not a mod, I'm an Operator, and that means that sometimes I get to abuse my power.
I'm not happy with the way the thread has gone. The thread is going to stay locked until I have time to sit down -hopefully by my tomorrow- and go through it properly. The thread culture is a mess, and I need to fix that beyond adherence to SV's rules.
Stop: You questers sure are a contentious people
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
you questers sure are a contentious people
Right, I understand that quests can get divisive; I've been there in some quests giving and taking as good as the best of them. We've all been at that point at some point, I think. Sometimes, what matters is that you are right, you know the way forward and the other side is going to do something incredibly stupid, so why won't they just listen to you? On some level, this is good; it means that the author has succeeded in his goal of getting the voterbase to engage, it means that you are interested in the story and characters, and Sufficient Velocity was, after all founded on principles of debate and discussion.
But there is a limit.
This thread has turned incredibly divisive and contentious; this argument is frankly ridiculous, covering several pages and consisting of an absurd amount of interlinked smaller arguments, each attacking the opponent like they were some mortal enemy from a heroic saga.
That's got to stop. After I've dealt these infractions out, the thread will stay locked at the request of @Firnagzen, until he, himself opens it with a statement.
Congratulating someone on an argument and explaining why you disagree is good practice as far as debates go, even using it to highlight a disagreement with someone else is fine. It can actually help a debate along in some cases, however in this case, doing it so as to attack other people for "pointless screaming" like this is unmindful and disruptive to the thread, especially one as intense-going as this. As such, I will apply a staff notice and three-day threadban to you as well.
This thread has a troubled history, and it's probably going to get just as heated again in the future, but I'm going to implore you: Please, try and be more chill in the future, it'll make the quest more enjoyable for both whoever moderator has to sit up six hours past his bedtime to handle it and you fellas playing it. It's like a win-win situation for both parts involved!
Right, I understand that quests can get divisive; I've been there in some quests giving and taking as good as the best of them. We've all been at that point at some point, I think. Sometimes, what matters is that you are right, you know the way forward and the other side is going to do something incredibly stupid, so why won't they just listen to you? On some level, this is good; it means that the author has succeeded in his goal of getting the voterbase to engage, it means that you are interested in the story and characters, and Sufficient Velocity was, after all founded on principles of debate and discussion.
But there is a limit.
This thread has turned incredibly divisive and contentious; this argument is frankly ridiculous, covering several pages and consisting of an absurd amount of interlinked smaller arguments, each attacking the opponent like they were some mortal enemy from a heroic saga.
That's got to stop. After I've dealt these infractions out, the thread will stay locked at the request of @Firnagzen, until he, himself opens it with a statement.
Smearing it into the face that someone did something with bold, capital letters to emphasize a point, or simply to call them a hypocrite like this is incredibly unmindful, as far as debate tactics go, but it's not a very large breach of the rules. I will, however still apply a staff notice and a three-day threadban to both of you. While only one of you used the aforementioned bold, capital letters, the sanction applies equally to both of you.
Congratulating someone on an argument and explaining why you disagree is good practice as far as debates go, even using it to highlight a disagreement with someone else is fine. It can actually help a debate along in some cases, however in this case, doing it so as to attack other people for "pointless screaming" like this is unmindful and disruptive to the thread, especially one as intense-going as this. As such, I will apply a staff notice and three-day threadban to you as well.
Expressing frustration with another person, is not against the rules of Sufficient Velocity; however, there are matters to be thought of, such as tone and tenor, as well as the appropriateness of such to a situation. In this situation, it can be said that choosing a heated thread such as this to go for rhetoric such as "don't be a fucking antagonistic dick" is not conducive to the mindfulness of the thread. However, I applaud your attempt to turn a new page, and make some form of peace, unsuccessful as it was. I will apply a staff notice under Rule 3 and a three-day threadban.
Normally, these kinds of jokes are fine. We assume some degree of light situational ribbing is appropriate, yeah? But I think in situations like this, it's best to refrain from these kinds of jokes, if only to stay on the safe side. I'm not giving you any staff notice or points, I'm just warning you for the future.
While I am always up for a good sarcastic ribbing, I think it's best we refrain from this kind of rhetoric in heated situations like this, yeah? Both to not come off as a provocateur, and to prevent disrupting the thread further. I'm going to apply a staff notice under Rule 4, and a three-day threadban here too.
This thread has a troubled history, and it's probably going to get just as heated again in the future, but I'm going to implore you: Please, try and be more chill in the future, it'll make the quest more enjoyable for both whoever moderator has to sit up six hours past his bedtime to handle it and you fellas playing it. It's like a win-win situation for both parts involved!
On the tone of the thread
So. Wall of text and quotes incoming, and I request that you read this. I'm specifically calling out behaviours that I find unhelpful, and what I think contribute to the atmosphere in the thread.
But first, I'm just gonna bring this one up, because I would really like this one enshrined.
Broadly, I'm going to break the problems down into a few categories:
Some of these are not just behaviour. Sabrina is, at this point, a character. She has established morals and thoughts and things she likes. It is reasonable to argue that it's in, or out, of character to behave in a certain way, but it also means that you should be mindful of this when posting. No, Sabrina's thoughts and past behaviours aren't a hard line. Her opinions and thoughts change over time. But it is something to remember.
Not engaging with the thread is an interesting one. PMAS is a Quest. It's collaborative. Part of this is that you are obliged to engage with your fellow players and actually try and compromise with them to get outcomes you like. Yes, not everyone is on the same boat as you are, but simply dropping in inflammatory, 'go your own way' posts isn't going to help. It tends to draw immediate lines in the sand, the most extreme positions that people shape 'the other side' around.
That there is anger and frustration in the thread is pretty obvious. The thing is, the anger tends to lead to judgemental, snap reactions, which is less than helpful. I'm not going to tell you not to be angry, but I'm going to ask that everyone step back and consider when you're posting.
Which brings us to my last category - passive-aggression. Look, I get that are deep disagreements. Sniping at other people only widens the rifts. It's playground behaviour 'I'm not touching you!'.
With all of that in mind:
kinigget, zxzx24, Spectral Waltz, I will be increasing your threadbans to two full weeks.
Onmur, you've already been threadbanned for the three days.
LendvaV, I will be adding a one week threadban.
So that's the specific callouts done. Nothing much here is specifically against SV's rules, no. But these are all behaviours I'm not happy with.
Sabrina is a good person. She always tries to be a good person, and participating in PMAS means partaking of and contributing to that. Which means, yes, I expect everyone to try and vote that way. One of the biggest disagreements I see here is whether it's better to take Rionna down here and now, or to talk to her -and Sabrina's friends- before making a decision.
Some fear giving her time, especially time outside the privacy sphere, allows her to gather her strength. It's true. But keep in mind that her confidence need not speak to the extent of her abilities, and keep in mind the Sabrina and her friends are also terrifyingly strong.
More importantly, some argue over the heinousness of Rionna's actions. Let me make this clear from an out of character position: Do not try and excuse her actions. You can justify them, perhaps, that she's working under a horrible system. She is, and so are Sabrina's friends. However, Rionna has done terrible things. She has not so far displayed any remorse for it. Don't try and both-sides the issue - it's not an acceptable thing to do in political discourse nor here. You're entitled to question her further, yes, or speculate that she might be faking or bluffing or whatnot. But she has absolutely done horrible things.
Now, with all that said... On a more personal note.
We haven't had any major blowups in a while, but it doesn't really feel like it. We've had periodic, simmering flareups. The arguments make me actively heartsick to read over, and to be perfectly honest, some days I don't feel like reading the thread because of them. Can you all just... try? Try. For my sake, for Sabrina's sake.
Step back and think before you post. Try and make sure you cool off before you do.
You don't need to respond within five minutes after someone posts something you disagree with. Get a drink, think about it. Slow down. Give yourself a little time to mull it over.
OK?
I will be keeping a closer eye on the thread, and threadbans... I haven't used them properly before, but if you need the time to cool off, I'm going to use it.
But first, I'm just gonna bring this one up, because I would really like this one enshrined.
Broadly, I'm going to break the problems down into a few categories:
- Not engaging with the thread
- Anger, and misrepresentation
- Passive aggressiveness
Some of these are not just behaviour. Sabrina is, at this point, a character. She has established morals and thoughts and things she likes. It is reasonable to argue that it's in, or out, of character to behave in a certain way, but it also means that you should be mindful of this when posting. No, Sabrina's thoughts and past behaviours aren't a hard line. Her opinions and thoughts change over time. But it is something to remember.
Not engaging with the thread is an interesting one. PMAS is a Quest. It's collaborative. Part of this is that you are obliged to engage with your fellow players and actually try and compromise with them to get outcomes you like. Yes, not everyone is on the same boat as you are, but simply dropping in inflammatory, 'go your own way' posts isn't going to help. It tends to draw immediate lines in the sand, the most extreme positions that people shape 'the other side' around.
The sentiment is noted - no one likes slavers, but simply declaring that it is so is needlessly inflammatory, and instantly calling for her death on that basis alone isn't acceptable. It sets a hard, binary postion that instantly polarizes the thread. And besides - morality aside, Sabrina is someone who doesn't like violence against other people, even if it's necessary. She's never going to jump into it as a first resort.
Again - simply declaring that it is so is not helpful.
Perhaps true, but engage with the thread. If there's a point to make, then make it in a substantial manner.
And here's the other side. Pretending you're above it all and implicitly judging the thread is, again, needlessly inflammatory and ironically contributes to the perception that the thread is descending harder into a flamewar than it might actually be.
That there is anger and frustration in the thread is pretty obvious. The thing is, the anger tends to lead to judgemental, snap reactions, which is less than helpful. I'm not going to tell you not to be angry, but I'm going to ask that everyone step back and consider when you're posting.
Considering that Sereg was threadbanned, this isn't a very productive thing to say.
And neither is this. There aren't even strong sides in this argument - broad agreements in decisions, but attempting to cast one group as a single side isn't helpful behaviour. It leads to the differences in opinion growing into larger rifts.
I don't think I need to say anything about this. It isn't particularly productive to the argument.
The swearing only serves to drive up other people's anger. It's not particularly helpful.
So, the thread-leakage of PMAS is how I help to set the tone for Sabrina. Yes, using it to justify an action, or not, isn't productive. It is in fact circular logic. However, it is a mechanic for characterizing Sabrina. It means that yes, Sabrina thinks of what Rionna does as slavery, as driven by a large portion of the userbase. She's allowed to do that, and yes, she's also allowed to change her mind that perhaps it isn't.
Lecturing other people only serves to make them angrier. Lecturing other people to cool off is even more so. Suggesting that someone calm down can be done in less inflammatory ways.
LendvaV, it's hard not to characterize your posts as attempts to antagonize and pick a fight. Don't do that. Aura, the anger and swearing in your posts isn't helpful.
Which brings us to my last category - passive-aggression. Look, I get that are deep disagreements. Sniping at other people only widens the rifts. It's playground behaviour 'I'm not touching you!'.
Perhaps that's true. On the other hand, implying that everyone is irrationally riled up isn't contributing to the discussion - if you don't have anything more to say than a 'isn't it funny' post, then don't.
This isn't constructive. Maybe you didn't notice, but Rionna is absolutely a morally grey character, and Sabrina does behave morally. Perhaps erratically, but she always strives towards being a good person.
The frustration is understandable. The condescension is not.
This entire series of posts is unacceptable. Declaring that you're disappointed, and then flouncing off and returning to make snide judgements is the opposite of helpful. And as to that last one - if you know you're just whining, then you know it's contributing nothing. Don't do it.
Racial stereotyping. Don't do it. Second, this overlaps somewhat with my first point - engage with the thread. I appreciate the attempt at humour, but it comes off as more of an attempt to be 'above it all'. It doesn't help.
This only comes off as snide judgement. It could be an attempt at defusing the tension with humour, yes, but in this case, it's not helpful.
And this really isn't constructive. Changing a vote out of spite -or even declaring your intention to- will only inflame the thread more.
With all of that in mind:
kinigget, zxzx24, Spectral Waltz, I will be increasing your threadbans to two full weeks.
Onmur, you've already been threadbanned for the three days.
LendvaV, I will be adding a one week threadban.
So that's the specific callouts done. Nothing much here is specifically against SV's rules, no. But these are all behaviours I'm not happy with.
Sabrina is a good person. She always tries to be a good person, and participating in PMAS means partaking of and contributing to that. Which means, yes, I expect everyone to try and vote that way. One of the biggest disagreements I see here is whether it's better to take Rionna down here and now, or to talk to her -and Sabrina's friends- before making a decision.
Some fear giving her time, especially time outside the privacy sphere, allows her to gather her strength. It's true. But keep in mind that her confidence need not speak to the extent of her abilities, and keep in mind the Sabrina and her friends are also terrifyingly strong.
More importantly, some argue over the heinousness of Rionna's actions. Let me make this clear from an out of character position: Do not try and excuse her actions. You can justify them, perhaps, that she's working under a horrible system. She is, and so are Sabrina's friends. However, Rionna has done terrible things. She has not so far displayed any remorse for it. Don't try and both-sides the issue - it's not an acceptable thing to do in political discourse nor here. You're entitled to question her further, yes, or speculate that she might be faking or bluffing or whatnot. But she has absolutely done horrible things.
Now, with all that said... On a more personal note.
We haven't had any major blowups in a while, but it doesn't really feel like it. We've had periodic, simmering flareups. The arguments make me actively heartsick to read over, and to be perfectly honest, some days I don't feel like reading the thread because of them. Can you all just... try? Try. For my sake, for Sabrina's sake.
Step back and think before you post. Try and make sure you cool off before you do.
You don't need to respond within five minutes after someone posts something you disagree with. Get a drink, think about it. Slow down. Give yourself a little time to mull it over.
OK?
I will be keeping a closer eye on the thread, and threadbans... I haven't used them properly before, but if you need the time to cool off, I'm going to use it.