[/lurk]

If we potentialbomb Madoka, and we do it right, she might initiate her apotheosis wishsplosion.

[lurk]

Oh absolutely-- like I said, it'd have to be done without mentioning *any* specific details of Homura's situation, because 1) no apotheosis for this Madoka and 2) we promised Homura we wouldn't bring Madoka into more magical girl things.

It would have to be phrased very carefully. It probably wouldn't even be too terrible if Madoka figured out it's about Homura (she is pretty obviously 1) driven and 2) traumatized) but the situation specific details could be left out.

Something like, "hey, my friend has something they literally believe is their life's purpose, that they have been working toward for years, and they haven't succeeded yet. In fact, the way they've been going about it actually may have made it more difficult and dangerous, perhaps even impossible for them to succeed. If they find this out, it will absolutely destroy them. But I can't keep it from them forever, because if I don't tell them, someone else who specifically wants to hurt them might tell them instead at the worst possible moment. What would you do? Would you still tell them, and if you would, how would you go about it?"
 
Oh absolutely-- like I said, it'd have to be done without mentioning *any* specific details of Homura's situation, because 1) no apotheosis for this Madoka and 2) we promised Homura we wouldn't bring Madoka into more magical girl things.

It would have to be phrased very carefully. It probably wouldn't even be too terrible if Madoka figured out it's about Homura (she is pretty obviously 1) driven and 2) traumatized) but the situation specific details could be left out.

Something like, "hey, my friend has something they literally believe is their life's purpose, that they have been working toward for years, and they haven't succeeded yet. In fact, the way they've been going about it actually may have made it more difficult and dangerous, perhaps even impossible for them to succeed. If they find this out, it will absolutely destroy them. But I can't keep it from them forever, because if I don't tell them, someone else who specifically wants to hurt them might tell them instead at the worst possible moment. What would you do? Would you still tell them, and if you would, how would you go about it?"
I think she'd probably have to run that one past Grandma.
 
I think she'd probably have to run that one past Grandma.
Agreed
To be better prepared for the Potentialbomb defense, I think we need two things that are in short supply-

It's about the people.

One, talk to Homura about her past, prior to the loops. We need to go there. (We also may have to help her with religious de-programming?) How can we safely move her fundamental logic without becoming more intimate? Her ability to love was slightly damaged before she met Madoka, we would be wise to consider that. Little details make the difference. We also need to keep up with the suicide resistance support, and social integration for Homura.

Two, if we are going to have the "a friend might have a problem" talk - we are FAR overdue to recruit Kaname Junko.
So, of course we need a pro to advise us, but the next level above Sabrina in "clever" is Junko.
Madoka has lots of curative attributes, but right now both Homura and herself can't properly understand how they are functioning. We can, but are debating how to make that a plan. Junko has no such limitation. What relation do we want to have with her?
 
Okay, I've suddenly got a lot of things on my mental plate, so correct me if I'm wrong or missed the reasoning for it, but our griefhax enchantment boosters result in grief-speckled enchantments that only work when around us -- are we just keeping them on hand, or was this only meant to help figure out what can be done?
The latter! That's why I locked in the continue enchantment part of the update.
 
Oh absolutely-- like I said, it'd have to be done without mentioning *any* specific details of Homura's situation, because 1) no apotheosis for this Madoka and 2) we promised Homura we wouldn't bring Madoka into more magical girl things.

It would have to be phrased very carefully. It probably wouldn't even be too terrible if Madoka figured out it's about Homura (she is pretty obviously 1) driven and 2) traumatized) but the situation specific details could be left out.

Something like, "hey, my friend has something they literally believe is their life's purpose, that they have been working toward for years, and they haven't succeeded yet. In fact, the way they've been going about it actually may have made it more difficult and dangerous, perhaps even impossible for them to succeed. If they find this out, it will absolutely destroy them. But I can't keep it from them forever, because if I don't tell them, someone else who specifically wants to hurt them might tell them instead at the worst possible moment. What would you do? Would you still tell them, and if you would, how would you go about it?"

Here be Dragons.

At Madoka's current level of Self-Esteem, bringing Madoka into the knowledge or the implication of the knowledge of the potential bomb might almost guarantee Madoka's Apotheosis. She wants to be directly useful to everyone involved in the whole Magical Girl thing, and we know from canon that even with knowledge of the Magical Girl system and all its death traps, she'll make the wish and sacrifice herself for others. If one reads the PMMM novelization (hell, just the first chapter is enough), she thinks heavily in philosophical terms sometimes... more so then she outwardly presents. Ironically, she's very much like Homura in this regard... actually in a numerous set of ways when one adds in details from the PSP game which shows much more information about the original timeline

• Both Madoka and Homura were transfer students from far away, with I think if memory serves both coming from Tokyo.
• Both were mercilessly bullied when they arrived in Mitakihara by their peers. Sayaka became to Madoka, what Madoka became to Homura, someone who protected them from the others who bullied them.
• Both have... very stalkerish tendencies towards each other. No seriously, during the original cycle, Madoka was the one following Homura like a hawk and watching over her.
• Both are absolutely willing, even if they know the full secrets of the Magical Girl system, to sacrifice their ordinary life to save the other. In an alternate version of the first loop that's possible to gain in the PSP Game, Homura has a chance to be both Lich and Witchbombed before she even contracts with Kyubey... and even knowing all that while still human... she won't care and wish anyway to save Madoka.

Bringing Madoka into the loop without guaranteeing her self-esteem issues are on the mend is almost asking for her to become Madokami. We haven't been engaging with her much at all. Compared to Sayaka, Kyoko, Homura, and especially Mami, she potentially knows us the least. That being said...... I do agree with bringing Junko into the mix.

We need someone who can boost Madoka's self-image issues and the anime makes it clear (indirectly, but both the first chapter of the novelization and the show itself presents this evidence) that she underestimates the issues her daughter is facing. Either that or her approach to boosting Madoka's esteem hasn't gone to the measure it needs too to lift her up properly. This is NOT an indictment on Madoka's mother, mind, the PSP game once again presents evidence she can -if social-fu'd enough- mother hen everyone and provide much needed support. We just have to angle everything just right.
 

Sorry, might've come out a bit more rambly than I intended it too... it sounded better in my head than it does now typed out. I guess what I mean is approaching Madoka for help on how to potential bomb Homura, even the "a friend is in trouble" kind of way just... worries the stuff out of me. The rest of that PROBABLY is knee-jerk worries being typed out. Kinda my nature to be overly-cautious sometimes.
 
Okay, concerning the memory editing, we have up until Nova Prospekt pt. 21 on the way back machine. It would probably be for the best if we update it before we go to meet with her. That way, if anything is lost or changed, we'll know.
 
Agreed
To be better prepared for the Potentialbomb defense, I think we need two things that are in short supply-

It's about the people.

One, talk to Homura about her past, prior to the loops. We need to go there. (We also may have to help her with religious de-programming?) How can we safely move her fundamental logic without becoming more intimate? Her ability to love was slightly damaged before she met Madoka, we would be wise to consider that. Little details make the difference. We also need to keep up with the suicide resistance support, and social integration for Homura.

Two, if we are going to have the "a friend might have a problem" talk - we are FAR overdue to recruit Kaname Junko.
So, of course we need a pro to advise us, but the next level above Sabrina in "clever" is Junko.
Madoka has lots of curative attributes, but right now both Homura and herself can't properly understand how they are functioning. We can, but are debating how to make that a plan. Junko has no such limitation. What relation do we want to have with her?

Oh man, you're so right, I totally had a blindspot and hadn't even considered Junko, but you're so right! I got a little too constricted by genre, when in reality we *don't* have to do everything ourselves, which is nice.

We have people, ADULTS even, who we can ask for help with our problems.

Of course, pretty much all these girls need professional therapy, but getting parents involved and increasing the support base, particularly for Madoka, Homura, and Mami, is a good start imo
 
The concept that the Potentiabomb is hard for us to reduce as we are right now - therefore, we need to get the help to make up that difference from elsewhere.

We are going to onboard the Shizukis. We could use that to improve our chances with Junko. I think Junko will be a trustworthy ally, and Homura will come to see her as such as well. There is no reason to suspect that Madoka's mother wants her to exit the world. They share a goal.
 
No, not that, I mean:
• Both Madoka and Homura were transfer students from far away, with I think if memory serves both coming from Tokyo.
• Both were mercilessly bullied when they arrived in Mitakihara by their peers. Sayaka became to Madoka, what Madoka became to Homura, someone who protected them from the others who bullied them.
• Both have... very stalkerish tendencies towards each other. No seriously, during the original cycle, Madoka was the one following Homura like a hawk and watching over her.
• Both are absolutely willing, even if they know the full secrets of the Magical Girl system, to sacrifice their ordinary life to save the other. In an alternate version of the first loop that's possible to gain in the PSP Game, Homura has a chance to be both Lich and Witchbombed before she even contracts with Kyubey... and even knowing all that while still human... she won't care and wish anyway to save Madoka.
Fucking what?

@Firnagzen
How canon is this PSP-game horseshit?
 
Wish rejection? That could be just as traumatic. Because knowing that her Wish, the hope that she traded her Soul for, is only bringing ruin to the person she'd hoped to protect...

That feels closer to the answer. Something along those lines, perhaps.

Well that could be the piece I've been missing to complete the answer to "What's the QB plot"...

Idk if anybody has said this out loud in here, but QB is obviously holding his cards close to his chest when he could've been playing them. The witchbomb, the metabomb, etcetera. I've long been basically convinced that the motive there is for him to be able to play them and achieve a crippling result at a time too close to some other event for us to avoid having to handle that event while somehow crippled, but the specifics of "crippled" and "that event" have been up in the air with only a few qualifiers, like "event must be something that could conceivably destroy us" and "crippled must involve somehow disabling Homura because otherwise we won't stand a reasonable chance of losing." I'm thinking, here, that things are, as it were, "magic loss (with the) wish rejection (in the) Iowa group showing up to kill us all a few days before WPN", but obviously it's hard to be sure.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth,

[] What do you do after dinner/during downtime?
-[X] Ask Homura to stay after the others leave, whenever that might be
 
Canonicity of the PSP game for Madoka and Sayaka's backgrounds
• Both Madoka and Homura were transfer students from far away, with I think if memory serves both coming from Tokyo.
• Both were mercilessly bullied when they arrived in Mitakihara by their peers. Sayaka became to Madoka, what Madoka became to Homura, someone who protected them from the others who bullied them.
• Both have... very stalkerish tendencies towards each other. No seriously, during the original cycle, Madoka was the one following Homura like a hawk and watching over her.
• Both are absolutely willing, even if they know the full secrets of the Magical Girl system, to sacrifice their ordinary life to save the other. In an alternate version of the first loop that's possible to gain in the PSP Game, Homura has a chance to be both Lich and Witchbombed before she even contracts with Kyubey... and even knowing all that while still human... she won't care and wish anyway to save Madoka.
@Firnagzen
How canon is this PSP-game horseshit?
*squints* I'm gonna declare that non-canon to PMAS.

EDIT: Added these two links to the index, under "Useful Information":
Canonicity of MagiReco
Canonicity of the PSP game for Madoka and Sayaka's backgrounds
 
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How canon is this PSP-game horseshit?
Considering Urobuchi himself wrote most of the plot and had a direct hand in it, along with the fact its information has been corroborated by the side entries of PMMM... I'm willing to gamble that it's high up there in canonicity.... save for Homura's personal level of the game. On Homura's route, the information there is actually 50/50. On the one hand, you actually find out some things of what Homura was intending to do in the anime (For example, when she was in the mall, she actually wasn't hunting for Kyubey. What she was ACTUALLY doing was hunting for Gertrud so that she could present Gertrud's Grief Seed to Mami in order to build an alliance on her terms. However, between gaining tunnel vision when Kyubey presented itself to her and gunning for it rather than staying on track with her original plan, and the fact that the night before ep 1 Kyubey already warned Mami of Homura, she refused the Grief Seed when an alliance was offered on Mami's terms.)

Notices the update in the thread mid-typing... clicks...

Well, consider me a fool then! Lol, looks like I lost that gamble... ah well. Apologies if that all came out of left field then @Firnagzen
 
Considering Urobuchi himself wrote most of the plot and had a direct hand in it, along with the fact its information has been corroborated by the side entries of PMMM... I'm willing to gamble that it's high up there in canonicity.... save for Homura's personal level of the game. On Homura's route, the information there is actually 50/50. On the one hand, you actually find out some things of what Homura was intending to do in the anime (For example, when she was in the mall, she actually wasn't hunting for Kyubey. What she was ACTUALLY doing was hunting for Gertrud so that she could present Gertrud's Grief Seed to Mami in order to build an alliance on her terms. However, between gaining tunnel vision when Kyubey presented itself to her and gunning for it rather than staying on track with her original plan, and the fact that the night before ep 1 Kyubey already warned Mami of Homura, she refused the Grief Seed when an alliance was offered on Mami's terms.)

Notices the update in the thread mid-typing... clicks...

Well, consider me a fool then! Lol, looks like I lost that gamble... ah well. Apologies if that all came out of left field then @Firnagzen
I mean, the characterization of Madoka being willing to become a magical girl even knowing the dangers - I can see that, yes. But the events themselves, of Madoka transferring in and of Sayaka stalking Madoka? Nooo, I don't think so.
 
I mean, the characterization of Madoka being willing to become a magical girl even knowing the dangers - I can see that, yes. But the events themselves, of Madoka transferring in and of Sayaka stalking Madoka? Nooo, I don't think so.

Er, he didn't say Sayaka stalked Madoka, he said Madoka stalked Homura in timeline one.

Which, considering that girl nearly became Witch food on her first fucking day in town, I can kind of understand Madoka's logic, here.

As for bullet points 1 and 2... That seems directly contradicted by the Luminous OP which shows Madoka growing up in Mitakihara and knowing Sayaka since she was in kindergarten, soooo, yea, we can toss that shit out the window.
 
of Madoka transferring in
Different Story directly shows this event.


Different Story also depicts the canonical version of Kyoko and Mami's first meeting, which the PSP Game, and all other Side Material all also agree with. The Audio Drama meanwhile depicts a snippet of Madoka's more original Homu-Like stalker behavior. Really read/ Listen to PMMM Drama CD 1: Memories of You, which also depicts the first loop. She was directly watching over Homura during the whole thing and was quietly helping her, yes with fewer Bows and Arrows to mirror Homura's gunkata, but none the less... the situation is reversed here.

Edit: Let me look for the relevant bit that talks about Madoka transferring in herself when she was little. I knew my memory of where she came from was suspect, but I do remember reading she was herself a Transfer student once.
 
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One thing to remember here is that #milesgloriosus tacitly asked us about the probably-witchbomb. It's not unreasonable to expect that they all have the basic bombs as a rule.

It may be worth mentioning that we have friends in the room, and that they might give a different answers and then we would have to the channel's third question.

#nyantokanyaru is another matter. I'd be surprised if Hatsumi wasn't bombed, but without seeing a concrete system in place, the others are iffy.
wait. I must have missed this, when did they ask about the witchbomb? I didn't notice that could someone link?

also on the idea of bringing junko into the loop
Sabrina: slams open door and breaks it off its hinges as she enters the room "SUP GRANDMA MAGIC IS REAL AND EVERYONE NEEDS THERAPY"
 
So Hitomi is being used as a mind reading test subject by Sayaka, right?

Does that mean that if the mind reading works too well, Sayaka finds out Hitomi's thoughts on the love triangle they're in?

If so, would that be a good or bad outcome?
 
Edit: Let me look for the relevant bit that talks about Madoka transferring in herself when she was little. I knew my memory of where she came from was suspect, but I do remember reading she was herself a Transfer student once.

Found it! I had to dig a little bit because damn it no one's translated the Novelization of PMMM beyond its first chapter (Someone with Moneybags... please help finish it!), However, a reviewer of the novelization was kind enough to summarize important details from it:

  • The importance of Mami as Madoka's role model. Madoka creates the magical girl version of herself in Mami's image. But to Madoka, the magical girl persona overlaps with her vision of who she wants to become as a person, her ideal self. Fearless, invincible and infinitely kind to those around her… Through her meeting with Mami, Madoka finds a goal to strive for. The confident Madoka we see in the original timeline is probably the result of that pursuit.​
  • Madoka's relationship with Homura. The weak crybaby that Madoka is, she can't help being afraid of the cold and silently angry Homura. But because she thinks about others more than about herself, there are also some things she notices. She doesn't know why, but she realizes that her words often seem to hurt Homura, filling the girl's cold eyes with flames of pain, anger and regret. Madoka helplessly tries to break through to the person she sees in those fleeting moments. In a way, Madoka sees a reflection of herself in Homura – it is revealed Madoka had had to transfer schools in the past, experiencing the feeling of being all alone in a new place.​
  • Madoka's relationship with Sayaka. Sayaka was Madoka's savior when the latter transferred schools. And when the two became friends, Sayaka would always stand up for and protect Madoka. But Madoka's gratitude is mixed with feelings of inferiority and guilt. If there is nothing she can pay Sayaka back with, can Madoka really call herself Sayaka's friend? Madoka's burden only grows heavier when Sayaka becomes a magical girl. Madoka's greatest fear is coming true. She will be left behind, alone, because she isn't strong enough to stand by Sayaka's side when Sayaka needs it most. Because she never had the right to call herself Sayaka's true friend to begin with…

So, while I was indeed right to suspect my memory of where Madoka came from was off... Urobuchi himself confirmed that Madoka was indeed once a transfer student herself. In my opinion, this is an important detail that shouldn't be tossed aside or ignored, because it provides the foundations... the origins for why Madoka originally understood and bonded with Homura. Why during ALL of the timelines she tries to reach out. On a fundamental level, in addition to her dreams (which the PSP Game reveals she actually does remember vividly and was lying to Sayaka and Hitomi about forgetting to avoid ridicule.), the two of them are mirrors of each other... and she (either consciously or not) recognizes this.
 
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As opposed to Madoka simply being kind? Sorry, that's an "explanation" that makes the original work worse. Death of an Author exists for a reason.
 
It's kind of hilarious how the "fursona" thing didn't get any engagement at all. Usually people at least malign our bad taste or laugh, but this time we appear to have gone so far that their minds just refused to process what we said.
 
I actually really like that fact, it gives more context and weight behind their relationship. and Godwin, nobody starts out kind or as the person they want to be, you grow to that point, like with anywhere else, the fact that madoka once was where homura was and tries to be the person for her that she needed at the time, which honestly makes her even kinder and more relatable to me cause I've been in the same place
I had to move a lot as a kid and it was never easy showing up at a new school with no friends and being lost and on your own, I wish I had someone pike madoka at that point in my life,
and it doesnt mean she's not kind, yhe fact that she did reach out is proof of her kindness, someone who wasn't as nice would have turned the eye or not have been as attentive or caring, no matter what their background may be
 
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