Hey @Firnagzen
It's been a few weeks in-quest, we've cleansed a lot of soul gems, at a lot of different levels of corruption.

About how many marbles results from different levels of corruption of different magical girls' soul gems? How much capacity does Sabrina have?
 
Soul Gem capacities
Hey @Firnagzen
It's been a few weeks in-quest, we've cleansed a lot of soul gems, at a lot of different levels of corruption.

About how many marbles results from different levels of corruption of different magical girls' soul gems? How much capacity does Sabrina have?
So in truth, I've never really formalized the numbers; I never really needed to. But I'd say...

In terms of marbles from a full cleanse, Mami stands at about 240 or so. Homura at about 170, and Sayaka at about the same. Sabrina stands at around 200 - yes, less than Mami. Sabrina's potential remains... weird. Nadia's a healthy 230. Oriko clocks in about 190.

These are just fuzzy estimates, mind you. Take them as better for comparison than for hard numbers. And the thing about Soul Gem capacities is that the effect of corruption runs on... more or less a logarithmic scale1​, because of Grief spiralling. Those last few drops don't last as long as you'd hope they might.

1​Not literally, but you get the idea.
 
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So in truth, I've never really formalized the numbers; I never really needed to. But I'd say...

In terms of marbles from a full cleanse, Mami stands at about 240 or so. Homura at about 170, and Sayaka at about the same. Sabrina stands at around 200 - yes, less than Mami. Sabrina's potential remains... weird. Nadia's a healthy 230. Oriko clocks in about 190.

These are just fuzzy estimates, mind you. Take them as better for comparison than for hard numbers. And the thing about Soul Gem capacities is that the effect of corruption runs on... more or less a logarithmic scale1​, because of Grief spiralling. Those last few drops don't last as long as you'd hope they might.

1​Not literally, but you get the idea.
And just for completeness sake, what volume is each marble? About a cubic centimeter?
 
So, that's really important. Because that pretty much says that the 'size' of Sabrina's Soul Gem is basically totally normal, instead of being a fuck-huge Soul Gem that you could make a Moon out of its personal Marbles, like if we hypothetically cleansed a full Madoka.

This...

You guys, Sabrina's potential is actually normal, as far as the actual metric of measuring magic goes. Something external to that is fudging the numbers hard in Sabrina's favor.

Given Sayaka's inability to copy our power, our meta-knowledge which weirdly updates and our time dilation, and Kyubey's and Riona's comments...

... is.

Is only PART of Sabrina's soul in her fucking Soul Gem? is Sabrina's Soul Gem actually a channel for something external? Possibly... external to the universe?

Like, say. A theatergoer sitting outside the stage-show. Some sort of... audience, you might say.
 
So, that's really important. Because that pretty much says that the 'size' of Sabrina's Soul Gem is basically totally normal, instead of being a fuck-huge Soul Gem that you could make a Moon out of its personal Marbles, like if we hypothetically cleansed a full Madoka.

This...

You guys, Sabrina's potential is actually normal, as far as the actual metric of measuring magic goes. Something external to that is fudging the numbers hard in Sabrina's favor.

Given Sayaka's inability to copy our power, our meta-knowledge which weirdly updates and our time dilation, and Kyubey's and Riona's comments...

... is.

Is only PART of Sabrina's soul in her fucking Soul Gem? is Sabrina's Soul Gem actually a channel for something external? Possibly... external to the universe?

Like, say. A theatergoer sitting outside the stage-show. Some sort of... audience, you might say.

Firn liked this post, everyone start screaming.
 
So in truth, I've never really formalized the numbers; I never really needed to. But I'd say...

In terms of marbles from a full cleanse, Mami stands at about 240 or so. Homura at about 170, and Sayaka at about the same. Sabrina stands at around 200 - yes, less than Mami. Sabrina's potential remains... weird. Nadia's a healthy 230. Oriko clocks in about 190.

These are just fuzzy estimates, mind you. Take them as better for comparison than for hard numbers. And the thing about Soul Gem capacities is that the effect of corruption runs on... more or less a logarithmic scale1​, because of Grief spiralling. Those last few drops don't last as long as you'd hope they might.

1​Not literally, but you get the idea.
A further question! When we "refresh" a grief seed from having been used, how many marbles are we pulling out of it?
 
Hmm, maybe Madoka's potential decreased by the amount we overwished. Meguca don't have the level of fidelity to detect the reduction because it still just registers as "fuckhuge". But kyubey would: if Madoka's potential decreased the exact moment we made our wish by the amount we overwished he probably already has a firm hypothesis as to what's going on.
 
Hmm, maybe Madoka's potential decreased by the amount we overwished. Meguca don't have the level of fidelity to detect the reduction because it still just registers as "fuckhuge". But kyubey would: if Madoka's potential decreased the exact moment we made our wish by the amount we overwished he probably already has a firm hypothesis as to what's going on.

That wouldn't really explain why our soul feels weird, unless you're straight up implying we're Madoka's personal Clara Doll.

...

Which, yea, okay.
 
That wouldn't really explain why our soul feels weird, unless you're straight up implying we're Madoka's personal Clara Doll.

...

Which, yea, okay.

Well that or Kyubey can see a massive funnel connecting our soul to Madoka's or something.

...we haven't really asked Madoka how much Kyubey has been trying to sell her on wishing since we came around have we. If Madoka looks like she has another magical girl connected to her soul the incubators might want to do some research before contracting her, like that's why I imagine Madoka is safe for a week or so before the incubators try and contract her after she suddenly gains godlike potential for no reason.
 
[X] You're starting to think you want to help her with this. Why can't you?
[X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
-[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
-[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
-[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, then fair warning, we're pretty sure we have the vast majority of the picture worked out already.
-[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
-[X] If at any point it's reasonable, see if you can slip in that you're interested in dewitching. But, don't try to stretch things to achieve that.

[X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable (ideally following this ordering if possible). If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
[X] She doesn't want this fight, because it's a line she doesn't want to cross, isn't it? You haven't attacked her and nor does she think you deserve to die.
-[X] If she argues this, point out it never had to come to a fight. She's been doing this for years - if she'd wanted to kill you, she easily could have by now.
[X] Nor is it that you can't help her. It's because what she's trying to do is so important to her that the risk of trusting someone is too much for her.
-[X] If she argues this, refute her. You are the only person she's ever found who can use the power she wants. She came over here on a rumour.
[X] You're her best chance. Perhaps ever. And maybe she's been betrayed before, but there are things she just can't do alone, no matter how determined she is. No matter how strong she is.
[X] You don't like what she does, sure. Maybe there are even more horrible things you don't even know about. But there's almost always a reason, and it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve help.
[X] "Please let me help you, Rionna mag Aoidhe."
-[X] Offer her the Clear Seed without the happiness magic in it.

So I thought I might have a go at constructing a vote. Some of this is cannibalised from Kaizuki's vote, some is my own stuff. Take what you want from it if any of it makes sense! I mainly wanted to address the high possibility that Rionna is not, well, a complete monster. I think there's a kind of balance here between going 'I think I understand your reasons for acting the way you do', 'I think you've done bad shit, though' and 'I'm going to help you anyway'. Then too, there's the fact that, well, if Sabrina can't help her, there's literally no-one on this planet who can. No-one with a power like Sabrina is going to appear again in normal circumstances. No-one with her connections is going to exist, because there's no-one with a power so universally needed as Sabrina's.

Finally, the Clear Seed. So I might have been a little bit too obsessed about using it as a trust surrogate last vote, and I was wrong about that. I certainly still believe that the Clear Seed is valuable to Rionna, but not so much that it would totally turn things around. But it has become a symbol for trust in this conversation. That whole thing where Sabrina pulls it back and talks about trust ends up making this a kind of peace offering. It's extending some trust in the hope of receiving some back in return.

Who knows, this vote may be going too fast, but I wanted to put something together anyway, particularly since I was explicitly asked.
 
Hmm, maybe Madoka's potential decreased by the amount we overwished. Meguca don't have the level of fidelity to detect the reduction because it still just registers as "fuckhuge". But kyubey would: if Madoka's potential decreased the exact moment we made our wish by the amount we overwished he probably already has a firm hypothesis as to what's going on.

I like this theory. Its a decent explanation of our weird soul.
 
Well that or Kyubey can see a massive funnel connecting our soul to Madoka's or something.

...we haven't really asked Madoka how much Kyubey has been trying to sell her on wishing since we came around have we. If Madoka looks like she has another magical girl connected to her soul the incubators might want to do some research before contracting her, like that's why I imagine Madoka is safe for a week or so before the incubators try and contract her after she suddenly gains godlike potential for no reason.
Help us social well, and the answers will be within one simple request to Rionna?

In all seriousness, please put up any thoughts you have for the vote too.

So I thought I might have a go at constructing a vote.
Right On! "your vote has delayed the end of the Universe!"
Are you certain about the Clear Seed line?
 
So, that's really important. Because that pretty much says that the 'size' of Sabrina's Soul Gem is basically totally normal, instead of being a fuck-huge Soul Gem that you could make a Moon out of its personal Marbles, like if we hypothetically cleansed a full Madoka.

This...

You guys, Sabrina's potential is actually normal, as far as the actual metric of measuring magic goes. Something external to that is fudging the numbers hard in Sabrina's favor.

Given Sayaka's inability to copy our power, our meta-knowledge which weirdly updates and our time dilation, and Kyubey's and Riona's comments...

... is.

Is only PART of Sabrina's soul in her fucking Soul Gem? is Sabrina's Soul Gem actually a channel for something external? Possibly... external to the universe?

Like, say. A theatergoer sitting outside the stage-show. Some sort of... audience, you might say.
(emphasis mine)

Aura... Of course part of our soul in outside of our gem. How else would we maintain grief in a physical state, a substance notorious for having to reside inside a soul at all times?

:p

Okay, pithy, semi-facetiousness aside, we don't know how the shades actually work or look but Rionna's existence confirms that independent souls are a thing that happens sometimes, even if they need maintenance. But, well, so does our grief effect.

And our soul spilling out into the city was brought up as a potential reason Rionna was able to spot us and, from that, contact us without prior introduction or direct contact.

That said, I'm not sure how that ties into the whole "lack of connection" dealio that both Kyuubey and Sayaka brought up in different ways. Seeing as that, whatever it is, is likely central to what's going on with us.

Hmm... I suppose it could be something to do with dissociation: We're tied to the rest of WPN/UKG, but we don't feel what they feel and vice versa. Which would have uh, worrying implications for keeping a lot of grief stored on the day WPN finally hits.



Even failing that all that however, there is another way we've discussed for Sabrina's soul-potential weirdery to be so notable... which is simply for it to be far reaching and massively unbalanced.

Saaaaay, due to terrorizing the world as a living Brazillian hurricane for centuries.

Which kinda goes against the hard data RE: weird connection, but I just wanted to say that phrase.

And yes, that also implies that all the damage done by WPN ever is outweighed by Magical Girl Idol Mami. I do not take that as a mark against the hypothesis. :V :V :V
 
Aura... Of course part of our soul in outside of our gem. How else would we maintain grief in a physical state, a substance notorious for having to reside inside a soul at all times?

:p

Haha, but that would imply Sabrina's Soul Gem is actually a 100 meter invisible sphere around her body, and also that we are not really that different from a standard Grief bender, because we do transefer Grief from one Soul Gem to another: ours.

It would also mean that anyone standing inside that 100 meter radius is partially inside of our Soul Gem, Rebellion-style.
 
Hmm... I suppose it could be something to do with dissociation: We're tied to the rest of WPN/UKG, but we don't feel what they feel and vice versa. Which would have uh, worrying implications for keeping a lot of grief stored on the day WPN finally hits.



Even failing that all that however, there is another way we've discussed for Sabrina's soul-potential weirdery to be so notable... which is simply for it to be far reaching and massively unbalanced.

Saaaaay, due to terrorizing the world as a living Brazillian hurricane for centuries.

Which kinda goes against the hard data RE: weird connection, but I just wanted to say that phrase.

And yes, that also implies that all the damage done by WPN ever is outweighed by Magical Girl Idol Mami. I do not take that as a mark against the hypothesis. :V :V :V
What do you think of the constructed fictions known as a "just so" stories? While there is very little proof of our origin on the ground, our theories make the most of it, except in one aspect of - attribution. A collective witch sounds like a congruent origin. Walpurgisnacht proves that the concept exists. She also has a good role in the story so far. Just because we already know the name, why is it better to join that name to our story? The general case is the most valuable, is what I'm saying. Reality isn't collapsed into solidity yet. In the end, what story would Firnagzen like to tell, and what theme should he reveal?
It would not disturb me in the slightest if we were derived from a witch that was other than the ultimate witch, or the witch with the big public image. Or no witch at all.
Gravitating to those names, as opposed to the 'type' is actually asking for what meaning from the ending?

As long as we get to be the best philanthropist and adventurer and friend by existing as Sabrina, carrying a sub-class of Witch, Demon, or Eldrich Abomination, or Goddess really doesn't upset any of our goals, right? Not trying to be picky. Ms Saotome instructs most vehemently against being picky! :p

Hmm, maybe Madoka's potential decreased by the amount we overwished. Meguca don't have the level of fidelity to detect the reduction because it still just registers as "fuckhuge". But kyubey would: if Madoka's potential decreased the exact moment we made our wish by the amount we overwished he probably already has a firm hypothesis as to what's going on.
That would let us save Madoka by handing off her potential to other girls? Except that we want an end to contracts.
 
Pretty sure we can probably store more than a 100m sphere's worth of Grief in our 4D space so there's that.

OTOH we could probably unspool and keep taut a space elevator wire in there, but there's no guarantee it won't intersect itself.
 
Pretty sure we can probably store more than a 100m sphere's worth of Grief in our 4D space so there's that.

OTOH we could probably unspool and keep taut a space elevator wire in there, but there's no guarantee it won't intersect itself.
A classic Magic, for a new age! The rope trick grows up for the 21st Century?

I would like us to try bulk object storage in 4D as a combat application sometime. Freely spamming obstacles or accelerating things that would be fine leaving our range would close some of our gaps in fighting strength. Sand would partner well with our nanofog?
 
A classic Magic, for a new age! The rope trick grows up for the 21st Century?

I would like us to try bulk object storage in 4D as a combat application sometime. Freely spamming obstacles or accelerating things that would be fine leaving our range would close some of our gaps in fighting strength. Sand would partner well with our nanofog?

I second this.
 
[X]PhDEevee
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 8, 2018 at 8:11 AM, finished with 143251 posts and 32 votes.

  • [X] You're starting to think you want to help her with this. Why can't you?
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    -[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
    -[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
    -[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, then fair warning, we're pretty sure we have the vast majority of the picture worked out already.
    -[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    -[X] If at any point it's reasonable, see if you can slip in that you're interested in dewitching. But, don't try to stretch things to achieve that.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [x] Why do we have to fight? She wants something. So do we. We can work together.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Properly explain the Clear Seed: the sheer amount of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, that you'd been feeding it hope magic.
    -[x] This might be the first step to turning a witch back into a person. We want to do that and we think she can help us.
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable (ideally following this ordering if possible). If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    [X] She doesn't want this fight, because it's a line she doesn't want to cross, isn't it? You haven't attacked her and nor does she think you deserve to die.
    -[X] If she argues this, point out it never had to come to a fight. She's been doing this for years - if she'd wanted to kill you, she easily could have by now.
    [X] Nor is it that you can't help her. It's because what she's trying to do is so important to her that the risk of trusting someone is too much for her.
    -[X] If she argues this, refute her. You are the only person she's ever found who can use the power she wants. She came over here on a rumour.
    [X] You're her best chance. Perhaps ever. And maybe she's been betrayed before, but there are things she just can't do alone, no matter how determined she is. No matter how strong she is.
    [X] You don't like what she does, sure. Maybe there are even more horrible things you don't even know about. But there's almost always a reason, and it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve help.
    [X] "Please let me help you, Rionna mag Aoidhe."
    -[X] Offer her the Clear Seed without the happiness magic in it.
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
    [x] Why can't you help her?
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, or Rionna tries to leave, break to voting:
    -[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
    -[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, as long as they're willing to stop once it's not needed. It would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
    -[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, assure her that you're able and willing to keep secrets even from very close friends - (gesture at Mami).
    -[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    -[X] If at any point it's reasonable, or if she asks what our interest in cooperation is, mention that you're interested in dewitching.
    [X] Deliver points with force. Counter her negatives.
    [X] Tell Rionna that we need to make a soul gem. Her soul vision is important.
    [X] We are not fighting her. Punishment isn't our only response.
    [X] State that saving absolutely everybody is our goal. Helping is our strength. Even strangers.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Proof - We can visit Anri.
    [X] Body fabrication is possible. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly the evils Magical Girl life leads her to do, whatever they are. Nothing new to see here.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time to deal squarely with us. Her wish is right here.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
 
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