Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[DataSnake]

Getting past Wally pretty much IS a miniboss, just one that has to happen if we really want to convince Homura that things can truly be better, as doing so without Madoka Witching out breaks the cycle she's been stuck in for so very long.

Click to shrink...

Since Walpy runs on narrative logic and there's a bigger but less well-known threat that will show up after we're done with her, I actually wouldn't be very surprised if she fell victim to the Worf Effect.

 

[theshroomdude]

I don't really see the utility in bothering with the Iowa. We have no pressing pertinent uses for naval might. The Tokyo districts have a ton of manpower if we somehow needed it, and obviously there's the other national organizations we can parlay with. Meguca are our ticket to the firepower to defeat Walpurgisnacht, but i don't think they seem to be relevant in the convo of defeating Feathers or the QB. For those, we probably need science, esoteric meguca powers, or maybe Toshimichi. Barring plot contrivance or a relationship breakdown, any sufficiently existential threat below the tier of feathers or QB is currently solvable with timestop, as we demonstrated by disassembling the Iowa group in a literally unreactable manner like 2 days ago. If we were able to avengers assemble and defeat what iirc nadia stated was basically the most notorious group in the world, i wouldn't expect us to be under threat from any similar direct assault reliant threats. The threats we're not well prepared to handle are mostly diplomatic or existential. 🤔

 

[Wyrd]

I don't really see the utility in bothering with the Iowa. We have no pressing pertinent uses for naval might. The Tokyo districts have a ton of manpower if we somehow needed it, and obviously there's the other national organizations we can parlay with. Meguca are our ticket to the firepower to defeat Walpurgisnacht, but i don't think they seem to be relevant in the convo of defeating Feathers or the QB. For those, we probably need science, esoteric meguca powers, or maybe Toshimichi. Barring plot contrivance or a relationship breakdown, any sufficiently existential threat below the tier of feathers or QB is currently solvable with timestop, as we demonstrated by disassembling the Iowa group in a literally unreactable manner like 2 days ago. If we were able to avengers assemble and defeat what iirc nadia stated was basically the most notorious group in the world, i wouldn't expect us to be under threat from any similar direct assault reliant threats. The threats we're not well prepared to handle are mostly diplomatic or existential. 🤔

Click to shrink...

Yuki can claim buildings, and thinks she can claim ships of sufficient size. Claiming the Iowa would let her send it to other places without needing to be stuck on it all the time, or needing a full crew. I don't see it being useful for military purposes, but it would be fun to have it as a claimed space. It's not important, but I would find it funny, especially if she swaps some things around to turn it into the Love Boat when we take Mami on a date.

 

[strange_person]

Well the stated goal the Incubators isn't that, no? It's something to the tune of defeating entropy to prevent the heat death of the universe. On its nose that's a very noble goal, though obviously the incubators are not good aligned. I merely point out we don't really know what they are or what they want, only what we've been told and what we recall.

Click to shrink...

They're good at thinking long-term. The heat death of the universe is their priority because it would endanger them personally - when it arrives, which is still quite some way off, but there's no sense waiting until the last minute. If the eggs they need to crack turn out to be planet-sized, and the resulting omelette will feed their tribe but nobody else's, signs point to them saying, more or less, "don't care, do it anyway." Not such a noble goal at that point, is it?

It's difficult to judge them sufficiently to really come up with a plan to tackle them as a threat while they remain completely opaque.

Click to shrink...

I've been... frustrated with that myself.

 

[DataSnake]

If the eggs they need to crack turn out to be planet-sized, and the resulting omelette will feed their tribe but nobody else's, signs point to them saying, more or less, "don't care, do it anyway." Not such a noble goal at that point, is it?

Click to shrink...

Their ethos is very much "some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make."

 

[theshroomdude]

Im not really sure the malice and tribalism you're attributing to the incubators is supported by the text. They're unethical utilitarians and nakedly callous, but they've not really been shown to have a moral motivation which I could comfortably frame as evil or malicious. For them, based on everything available to us, their every interaction with humans appears to be a calculus of energetic value.

We can certainly attempt to read into their motivations—it seems logical to assume that overcoming entropy is just self-preservation for them—but I don't think we can state that we know this information for certain. We're kinda left grasping at straws because both canon and PMAS have focused very little on discussing or revealing the nature and motivations of the Incubators.

Basically, I'm currently of the opinion that seeking out information on QB's race/civilization/collective conscious/whatever should be a priority rivaling doing the same for Feathers. I'm not convinced there's such a thing as a happy ending where the Incubators aren't dead, defanged, subdued, or at least made to see the error of their ways, but we currently have no information on how to go any of those routes.

 

[Wyrd]

Feathers is likely the more immediate problem, but the Incubators are a longer term issue we likely won't get to resolve within the confines of this quest, unless a Wish changes things, even if we do manage to remove them as a problem on Earth.

Part of why I like to think about them as an artificial intelligence is that, despite the cold calculous involved, they don't seem to differentiate between two courses of action that both give them a positive result, regardless of which gives them the better result. Their cold logic doesn't work if they are natural, thinking beings, as evolution does not favor things that cannot learn and adapt to things they aren't already programmed to deal with. A number of sci-fi stories have had as an important setting detail that an alien intelligence was so mutually incomprehensible that they had to create something that could interface with both and try to translate concepts that are extraordinarily difficult to convey thanks to how different the minds of those races.

In the book for Total Recall(1990 movie), for instance, there is a device in the ruins on Mars that shoved an explanation directly into Quaid's mind of what the alien facilities really were-a test. Turn the terraforming engines on, and they'd send a message to the greater galactic community that there was a new space faring race that might be worth dealing with. Ignore the engines, and nothing happens. Destroy them? The sun gets triggered to nova as any race that aggressive isn't worth letting grow too strong. This is a relevant example because the aliens who built the machines were chosen as being sufficiently similar to humanity to devise a proper test and set up something humans might understand. Quaid wonders at this, since the aliens in question were very dissimilar to humanity, at which point the machine also implanted the knowledge of exactly how alien the average species is.

 

[strange_person]

Im not really sure the malice and tribalism you're attributing to the incubators is supported by the text. They're unethical utilitarians and nakedly callous, but they've not really been shown to have a moral motivation which I could comfortably frame as evil or malicious. For them, based on everything available to us, their every interaction with humans appears to be a calculus of energetic value.

We can certainly attempt to read into their motivations—it seems logical to assume that overcoming entropy is just self-preservation for them—but I don't think we can state that we know this information for certain. We're kinda left grasping at straws because both canon and PMAS have focused very little on discussing or revealing the nature and motivations of the Incubators.

Click to shrink...

The part I got upset about before revolved around this ambiguity. If they're truly "only in it for the money," it should logically be possible (at least in principle, and vast unprecedented power tends to make principles easier to put into practice) to work out a deal where the pay they get for continuing to play along is better, in a cold calculus sort of way, than any plausible prospect of gain from betrayal. At that point the problem would mostly be solved.
But when I tried to discuss specifics for such a deal, the response was mockery and, more or less, "no pay you could possibly offer would satisfy them, don't try to bargain with someone everybody already knows is ontologically evil."

 

[Ryumancer]

The part I got upset about before revolved around this ambiguity. If they're truly "only in it for the money," it should logically be possible (at least in principle, and vast unprecedented power tends to make principles easier to put into practice) to work out a deal where the pay they get for continuing to play along is better, in a cold calculus sort of way, than any plausible prospect of gain from betrayal. At that point the problem would mostly be solved.
But when I tried to discuss specifics for such a deal, the response was mockery and, more or less, "no pay you could possibly offer would satisfy them, don't try to bargain with someone everybody already knows is ontologically evil."

Click to shrink...

If I remember correctly, Sabrina already poked the Incubators about that, and the results were something along the lines of 'Sabrina's capabilities cannot match their current operations on Earth in useful energy output, so they're not interested in cutting a deal'

 

[theshroomdude]

To be fair, I'm not suggesting we should ever interact with nor enter into a deal with them with the presumption of good faith. They appear to only lie by omission and lack emotion, which is maybe a tool we could perhaps use in engaging with them, but I expect any interaction with them to be a losing interaction. I also just think that we may ultimately need to take such losing interactions at some point, unless we can think of some other indirect way to gather intel on them.

QB is effectively everywhere at all times and appears to know most things. They're like a virus, embedded into the tissue of reality and liable to flare up when prodded. And yet, they're not really something we can observe while they're not flared up. How do we solve that? I am not convinced the answer lies in the powers of magical girls, regardless of number or level of organization.

If I remember correctly, Sabrina already poked the Incubators about that, and the results were something along the lines of 'Sabrina's capabilities cannot match their current operations on Earth in useful energy output, so they're not interested in cutting a deal'

Click to shrink...

This must've been quite awhile ago—Brina can achieve nearly anything we've tested with griefhax. I feel like if that were our angle, we could figure something out. It seems potentially fraught though, given the QB are potentially liable to just imprison or kill us for our power. But still, if we really thought they just wanted to cut a deal (even just for something smaller, not necessarily to fix everything), there's a chance we could craft a solution worth their time. I wouldn't be convinced jumping straight to something like that is advisable, but I also wouldn't consider our capabilities to be permanently incapable of being worth their time due to a previous conversation, should we consider that path. Our power, and thus our bartering value, is always growing.

 

[Edison_Trent]

Yeah, the idea in and of itself is sound.

But the math just isn't there yet. Madoka's individual value from time looping, plus humanities rate of wish/grief production with its exponential birth rate, is just too much compared to Sabrina's ability to give them grief directly from soul gems/refrsh witch seeds. And Sabrina and Co can't threaten to cut them off from Earth's grief (and soul-wish) energy without killing/witching out everyone, until a non witch-seed-dependent system is made.

Once a witch-less system is available (especially if witches are being returned to meguca), and thus they are only getting energy from wishes, then Constellation could start bargaining, maybe.

 

[theshroomdude]

Don't you think attempting to implement a witch-less system without first having some sort of solution for QB would just trigger them to become directly hostile because we would be interfering with their plans? It seems unlikely to me that there's any reasonable guarantee that a system which de-witches and/or is witch-less wouldn't run counter to their plans and paint an instant target on our back.

While magic is bullshit, I see no reason to think it unlikely that reversing the processes which generate the energy to overcome entropy wouldn't in turn increase entropic decay, and at best we would likely prevent them from acquiring new energy. The incubators have the power to grant wishes and capture goddesses—they seem like the kind of foe we should expect to come to us with a reckoning, not one who will passively wait for us to attack them while they are already aware we are an aggressive and growing problem.

 

[Torgamous]

But when I tried to discuss specifics for such a deal, the response was mockery and, more or less, "no pay you could possibly offer would satisfy them, don't try to bargain with someone everybody already knows is ontologically evil."

Click to shrink...

1. No pay you could possibly offer is worth more than Madoka.
2. Accepting an agreement that provides it some immediate advantage and then doing what it was going to do anyway while blaming you for not sufficiently understanding the agreement wouldn't make Kyubey any more ontologically evil than New Zealand.

It is absolutely possible to negotiate with Kyubey, just not if you go into it thinking that you're some kind of peer who can expect good faith out of it, as I recall you were doing. If you don't go into negotiations with Kyubey with the understanding that at best you're a Guatemalan negotiating with the United Fruit Company and at worst you're a spider monkey negotiating with the United Fruit Company, you're gonna get fucked.

While magic is bullshit, I see no reason to think it unlikely that reversing the processes which generate the energy to overcome entropy wouldn't in turn increase entropic decay, and at best we would likely prevent them from acquiring new energy.

Click to shrink...

I see no reason for that to be the case. Right now our best bet is extracting a grief seed's full grief contents from it, and then producing more grief while filling it up with magic.

 

[Wyrd]

Oh, FFS! Had a detailed post written, was forced to refresh, and even though I saved the draught, I lost the whole thing. I wonder how much I'll remember for Post, Take 2.

First, remember that a Madoka with more loops than the one who created Madokami wished for it to be possible for everything to be fixed. Her canon wish was strong enough to rewrite some laws of nature for the entire universe, so changing the Incubators so some of their more incomprehensible actions in canon are handled a bit differently is within the limits of her Potential. This does not make them good, or even neutral, not by a long shot, but it does mean that an acceptable change to the current status quo should be possible.

I agree with both Torg and shroom. We cannot learn what we need to know to deal with the Incubators without actually talking to them, but we should expect them to weasel out something they consider more valuable out of any deal we strike. First thing is asking what they actually want, in the immediate sense. Do they actually want the Grief Seeds, or just the Grief? If it's the Grief they want, it would likely save them energy to let us extract the Grief and give it to them; we can't at current replace the system, but that could convince them to give us Grief Seeds to turn into Clear Seeds and create a stockpile that can be more freely distributed by our allies, bringing us closer to @Torgamous 's goal of reaching everybody, even if it isn't what they want. I want them spread far and wide, too, but am a bit more paranoid about just giving them to everybody.

Basically, we need to make small scale deals to learn what has a chance of working in large scale deals. We'll need to remove their ability to rely on Witches before we can stop them from using what is, to them, a well established and profitable long term plan, but there are a lot of steps between where we are and where we want to go, and not talking to the Incubators at all is refusing to take the first step for fear of the unknown. Yes, we have allies that we should also be putting to the task, but I'm unsure that is likely enough to work that it is worth completely refusing to learn from an adversary with a well established, and frankly ludicrous willingness to share information that may come back to bite them.

 

[Firnagzen]

Spoiler: Winning vote

[X] How do you want to approach the Soujus?
-[X] Try to dissuade them from calling you an angel
--[X] Tell them that you'll discuss the accuracy and theology(?) of that later, but that for now you're just asking them to not call you that sort of thing because it makes you uncomfortable. You've got all this power and responsibility, sure, but you prefer to think of yourself as a fellow magical girl first and foremost. Even if they think it's being disrespectful, you'd consider it a personal kindness if they were to be disrespectful like that.
[X] You're here to check in on the living situation with the Shiogama girls and the Soujus, are you after anything specific?
-[X] Also, the Soujus shared a technique for handling Grief. Investigate it more
-[X] Make sure that there's not been too much friction between the Soujus and Noriko, and that immediate needs are handled and any medium-term concerns can be brought up.

"Good morning to you too, Miss Ayase, Miss Luca," you respond evenly, despite the squirm of discomfort and vague annoyance. It's not like you have the right to be annoyed about it yet - you're uncomfortable, yes, but it's not like you've properly asked them to stop yet. That'll be something to do today.

"Good morning!(Good morning, o angel!)" they respond, that familiar bright, feverish intensity burning in their voices.

"I'll be there in a moment, OK?" you say, tamping down on your reaction as you make your way down the steps. "Then we'll figure things out."

"Of course,(As you command!)" they respond.

You take the stairs two at a time, a quick, bouncy pace, and you arrive at the apartment just in time for one of Noriko's bodies to pull it open.

"Good morning!" she says with a quick smile. "Miss... ah, the Soujus told us you were here."

"Good morning!" you respond, smiling easily. "I hope I'm not keeping you from breakfast or anything?"

"No, no, we woke up earlier and ate," Noriko says, waving it off. "Ah... before we go in..." She lowers her voice, bracing one hand against the doorframe to lean forward. "They seem to have concluded that Akemi and I are your followers in some way, and we haven't done too much to dissuade them of that? And it's not totally inaccurate, so..."

"... if it works, I suppose," you say dubiously. It's just as well you'd only planned to ask the Soujus to stop calling you an angel, for now. "Though, er, you know that I'm not-"

"-not an angel?" Noriko says, a smirk flickering across her face. "Weeellll... I don't know about that, considering your magic and all."

You roll your eyes.

"Yeah, yeah, laugh it up," you say. "But no, I mean that I'm not demanding obedience or supplication from you or anything like that."

"Ah," Noriko says. Her expression turns serious, yellow eyes meeting yours. "Yeah, that we do know. We're here because you gave us an escape when we had a dire need for it, and you asked for very little in exchange. It was an easy choice to make." She snorts softly, wonderingly, and shrugs. "But at this point... we're happy to be here."

"I'm glad to hear it," you say, smiling.

"Anyway," Noriko says, rolling her eyes and stepping aside. "Come in, come in."

"Thank you," you say.

You head in to the apartment - it's changed a little since the last time you were here, with a rug, two near chairs, and a few potted plants making their appearances, as well as a poster hanging on the wall, of an idol group you don't recognise. Akemi greets you with a smile, and by the sounds of it, Noriko's other body is in the kitchen. As for the Soujus...

You know where they are, of course, their Soul Gems bright in your minds' eye, but it takes a second for your physical eyes to acknowledge that they are, in fact, sitting slightly apart in a cat-patterned bowl on the coffee table. An admittedly cute cat-patterned bowl, but that just makes it even more incongruous. At the same time, you can sense the antimagic enchants from Kirika - it seems Akemi and Noriko are each carrying one, ready for emergencies. Smart.

"'morning, Miss Saito, Miss Ayase, Miss Luca," you greet as you step into the room. "I hope everyone's well?"

"Good morning!" Akemi says brightly, waving you towards one of the seats. "We're well, thank you for asking, and the Soujus have been model guests, given the circumstances. Ah... roommates?"

"I can certainly imagine worse," Noriko says as she steps past you.

"Of course we were!(How could we do any less?)" the Soujus say indignantly. "We'd never be rude guests!(We had our misgivings, but we trust our angel's command!)"

"I'm glad to hear it," you say, smiling and allowing yourself to be ushered into a kneeling seat at the coffee table. "Honestly, that's one of the reasons that I'm here today - I wanted to make sure that you're settling in alright, and to check if there's anything you need?"

Noriko and Akemi shake their heads in answer to your questioning look.

"As Akemi said, the Soujus haven't been any trouble at all," Noriko says, giving the Soul Gems an awkward look. "Quiet for most part, and... well, they don't have to eat or anything."

"Almost too quiet," Akemi says, blushing slightly.

"If you're going to do that sort of thing, you should do it in private!" the Soujus protest.

Akemi clears her throat delicately.

"Yes, that was our fault, we're, ah, not used to having such quiet roommates," she says. "Um. Well, they don't even need to use the toilet or anything, and they're mostly content to do their own thing, so... apart from cleansing and, ah, that one incident there hasn't been any trouble at all since yesterday."

"Your Clear Seed is a marvel,(Further proof our journey was worth it.)" the Soujus add. "And you give it so freely.(Our angel's generosity is unmatched.)"

"... Ah, and yes, we've had a little difficulty understanding them when they speak at the same time like that," Akemi notes. "But we discussed it with them, and they were kind enough to try and remember to take turn when talking to us." She smiles fondly at Noriko. "I mean, even Noriko has four sets of ears, but only one soul."

"Sorry!(It's a habit,)" the Soujus say, almost sheepish as their voices slow down, one speaking before the other. "Our angel understands us, but we know that not everyone can. We're trying to remember not to!"

"It's quite alright," Akemi says, smiling slightly. "There's, ah, always growing pains with new roommates, I suppose?

"It's a learning experience!(For our sisters- ah, wait-)" the Soujus chirp. "And we're happy to make accomodations for our sister-followers."

"Yes, just so," Akemi says, giving you an awkward look.

"Oh, before I forget, there's something on my mind I'd like to talk about before you leave, Miss Sabrina?" Akemi says, her eyes flickering briefly to the cat bowl containing their Soul Gems. "Not related, so it can wait until later."

"Ah, sure?" you say, blinking, then purse your lips briefly. This is probably as good a segue as you're going to get. "Though uh... I'm very sorry, given that this is your home, but I hope it would be OK if I have a private word with Miss Ayase and Miss Luca for a moment?"

Noriko and Akemi exchange a quick look, and Noriko gives you a nod as she stands.

"We'll be in the kitchen," Akemi says. "Can we offer you some tea?"

"... thank you, but no," you say, smiling sheepishly at her. "I know it's just proper hospitality, and I appreciate it, but I have drunk so much tea these past few days I'm expecting my back teeth to float away, and I'm expecting to drink more today. I like tea well enough, but like..." You wobble your hand. "Y'know. Also, that phrase is mostly a Southern US thing, I think, and I have no idea why I said it. It's usually about needing the toilet, even, and I don't. Hm. Never mind, let's just forget the last thirty seconds."

You scratch your head, bewildered, as Akemi chuckles.

"It's evocative," she says cheerfully as she stands. "So definitely no tea, then."

"Did we do something wrong?" the Soujus ask, their voices small as Noriko and Akemi leave the room.

You're... not going to get into the whole kidnapping thing right this moment. That one's a gigantic can of worms big enough that you'd have to consider walking without rhythm. For now, you're just taking aim at a much more modest goal, you hope. But even through the trepidation creeping into their mental presence, you can still feel that dancing, fervent spark of hunger. Hunger like a flame, a yawning void: and not one that's pointed at you. Something, someone superficially like you, perhaps, a devotion to their own warped vision of salvation.

"I have a request for you," you say, rather than any of that.

"Yes, anything!" they say, that trepidation turning to instant, fawning glee. Maybe it's your imagination, but even their Soul Gems glow a little brighter, their magic pulsing eagerly.

"Alright. Well... I would like to request that you not call me an angel, or anything along thise lines?" you say, and hold up your hands. "We... can discuss the accuracy of that later, but for now, I'm just asking you not to call me that sort of thing because it makes me uncomfortable."

The Soujus don't respond immediately, the glow of their Soul Gems a dull throb. You can feel the magic flowing between their Soul Gems, a flurry of conversation you're not privy to, and rather than interrupt, you simply fold your hands on your lap and wait. To anyone else, you wouldn't consider this a big ask. To the girls with their minds warped by their Wishes, who near-worship you, or at least the idea of you...

You don't know.

You keep your magic poised at the back of your mind, ready to reach out. You're reasonably confident it won't come to a fight, but you can't help but be a little paranoid: and more importantly, this is not your home. This is Noriko and Akemi's home, and you absolutely will not allow their place to be messed up if it turns out that you misread the situation.

"But you are,(Have we displeased you?)" they ask sullenly.

"I don't..." You trail off with a sigh. "That sort of phrasing makes me uncomfortable. I don't like being put above others like that - I've got all this power and the responsibility that comes with it, but I prefer to be just a fellow magical girl, first and foremost."

"But you're more than that,(It wouldn't be right to treat you as any less than you deserve,)" they say, indignation and that impassioned fervour burning in their mental voices as their words spill and twine and tumble over each other, reverberating in your mind. "We knew, we knew it from the moment we were in your presence. We understand that you wish to hide it from others, but we know.(You are the End of Grief, Her hand upon this world. You are the angel of salvation, born of the shattering of that Which Was. It is your perogative to hide what you are, o angel, but we understood.) We beg your understanding, our angel, but we don't(we can't) believe it right for us to be so casual."

"I..." You hide your grimace, and tamp down the urge to rub your face. The most you allow yourself is to lean back in the sofa, staring down at the pair of Soul Gems glowing softly in the morning light.

There's something about the way their conviction rings in their voices that makes you bite back your instinctive denial. It's not that you entirely disagree with their perspective: you have power unheard of, and a colossal pileup of circumstantial evidence that's difficult to dismiss, and you will reluctantly concede that you do also have the attitude to match, in many ways. You do want to save people, after all.

So they're not really wrong. Entirely the opposite, even, they're most likely right - in broad strokes. You're all but certain you were created by Madoka's Wish, after all. But all those ephitets that hang uneasily upon you, and the idea of being divine and of being above others like that... there's just something about the whole construct that sits poorly.

But your mind keeps circling back to the way they say it. That ardent belief. You suspect it's something too deeply enmeshed with the Soujus' worldview: you fit, exactly, that slot in their beliefs. You can't win this fight without getting through that same worldview that led them to conclude that kidnapping magical girls from their bodies was saving them, and that's not a fight you're willing to take on. Not right now.

"I would take it as a personal favour," you say softly. One last try. "I... appreciate that you think that that sort of, ah, respect is my due, but at the same time it makes me genuinely uncomfortable to be called an angel, or anything like that."

There's another long silence, as the Soujus presumably debate between themselves.

"We don't think we can,(We're truly sorry, our angel, but we can't.)" they say at last, their mental voices small. "It's no less than is your due, Lady Vee, and we can't not. We apologize.(We're sincerely sorry.)"

Well.

You tried.

And it's useful to know that to them, the idea of you is more important than you. Maybe it's a result of the warping of their mindsets from their Wish, but even so. It's important to know.

"... alright, fine," you concede. "But please don't try and convince others to take up that terminology. And no scripture!"

"Thank you for clemency,(We thank you for your forbearance,)" they say, sounding relieved. "We will hold our tongues - your work speaks for itself.(They will understand in time. Just as our work brought us to you!)"

"That... will suffice," you say, trying not to sigh. At least they're not insistent on proselytizing about it. Or continuing on their self-appointed mission of 'salvation'.

Feeling eyes on you, and realizing that the noise from the kitchen has died down, you glance over to find Akemi peeking out, and you nod slightly. You're done with the private conversation, as much as it was.

"Ah..." the Soujus venture, uncertainty creeping into their voices. If they had a body or two, you could imagine them poking their fingers nervously together. "May we ask a question, o angel?(It's just a small question, to indulge our curiosity!)"

You nod, then remember that they can't really see.

"Go on?" you say.

"The souls that we saved,(It was your due to claim them,)" they ask. "How are they?"

"They're well. I've left them in the care of a trusted friend of mine," you say, and because you suspect you know what they're going to ask next, you continue, "She has a Clear Seed which she will use to keep them cleansed."

"It's good they're being taken care of,(We never doubted you, our angel! Thank you for indulging our curiosity)" they say, that sharp-edged, fawning cheer seeping back into their mental voices. "Thank you for helping.(They were the ones we could save.)"

"I'm always glad to help," you say firmly, covering the squirm of unease - their idea of helping is very different from yours, after all. You nod at Akemi and Noriko as they return, the latter offering you a brief smile with one of her bodies as they settle back down on the sofa.

"Welcome back!" the Soujus chirp, all evidence of the previous dismay and concern completely gone.

"Er, thanks," Noriko says. "So, were there any other concerns, Miss Vee?"

"Not really any concerns, no," you say. "But ah... OK, so, I came here to check if there were any problems settling in. With that sorted out, if it wouldn't be an imposition on your time, I was thinking we could spend a little time investigating the Soujus' Grief removal technique?"

"Ah, there's no need to worry about taking our time," Noriko says, shaking her head. "The most we were thinking of doing this morning was to go out hunting - but we can do that at any time, anyway."

Akemi snorts.

"And Miss Sakura's haunting the rooftops the whole day, anyway," she says.

"... You ran into Kyouko?" you say, blinking.

"Yeah, couple days ago. And Miss Chitose too," Akemi says. "It's always safer to hunt with numbers, so we mutually agreed that the next time we were out on a hunt we should see if the others were around."

"Yeah, it's always good to hunt with numbers on your side," you agree. Good to know that Kyouko's reaching out, too. "Well. If you're sure I'm not taking up too much of your time, then?"

"We're sure," Noriko says.

"And we're happy to help!" the Soujus say. "Anything for our angel."

"Right, well... I was thinking that we could start with a demonstration, maybe, so we're all on the same page?" you say. "Miss Ayase, Miss Luca? And... mm, well... ideally, this technique is something everyone can learn. So... Miss Watanabe, Miss Saito, if you could take a look too? I'd value a second opinion on it."

"Of course!" the Soujus chirp. "It's nothing compared to your power, o angel, but it's a more humble technique, perhaps better suited for more humble souls."

"That's... the idea, yeah," you say, a little awkwardly. "Though honestly, I'm really, really curious to see how it works."

"We're beginning!" the Soujus say.

Curiosity overrides wariness as the Soujus get to work, and all three of you lean forward, watching. Noriko and Akemi lack your sense of Grief, but even so, you hope they can feel the weft of magic flowing between the Soujus' Soul Gems, cycling in a tight, closed loop until it almost locks in place. To your senses...

The Soujus aren't carrying much Grief in their Soul Gems, having clearly been cleansed recently - possibly just before you'd arrived. Sparkling and shiny, even, and you can imagine they'd requested it to look their best for you. But that's a thought for another time: more relevantly, there is no amount of Grief too little for you to sense, and you can feel tiny wisps of already minuscule traces of Grief peeled away and dragged along by the flow of magic, a willing give and take of Grief transferred between Soul Gems.

And you watch with interest as they turn the flow into a circulation, the wisps of Grief flowing in a loop, tugged along by the flow of magic, and... you watch as slowly, agonizingly slowly, shreds of Grief simply drift free, shaken free. It's a delicate, painstaking dance executed by two souls in perfect synchronization, sleight of hand played with the universe.

You watch even as an indefinable sense of sourness burns through you.

You watch as the freed Grief tries to clump back up. Some of it rejoins the flow, and some of it drifts back to their Soul Gems. But it's overall a net reduction - a glacial, finnicky process built on the perfect synchronization of two souls. And it doesn't really handle the Grief, simply releasing it into the environment to merge with the ambient background, but...

You just witnessed Grief being removed from Soul Gems. Not transferred to another, not by Wish magic, and not by you.

By ordinary magic, if such a thing exists.

By a technique that might be learnable.

And yet... your excitement is gone.

"We are done!(There we go!)" the Soujus say. "We... hope it meets your expectations?(We hope you do not consider it trespass upon your domain, o angel.)"

"That... that's a hell of a technique?" Akemi says. "I... I'm not the most magically astute girl out there, but I reckon I'm far from the worst. Noriko, too. And I have no idea how I'd even start pulling something like that off."

"Oh, that's an-(Oh, that's easy- pardon-) that's an easy fix," the Soujus say dismissively. "The more Soul Gems in the loop, the easier it becomes."

"Ah," Akemi says, looking more thoughtful.

It feels like you're burning. Not in any tangible way, physical or magical. But it burns.

It's everything you've been hoping for, after everything. A way to give cleansing to other people, without them having to depend on you. A way to replace Clear Seeds. It's fussy and slow and presumably needs considerable training, but it works.

So why does it burn like this, now that you have it in front of you, that you've seen it happen instead of just hearing about it?

It's a good thing that someone managed to figure out something like this, even if it's a demanding difficult technique to pull off. Something that you can spread to the world, something that people can learn and distribute. It's not gonna be easy. The Soujus might be a unique case, but the technique itself isn't so complicated that you can imagine that it's entirely unique.

A denial claws at your throat, fighting to be set free.

It's something that must have been invented before, by others, and... lost. Forgotten. Suppressed. Suppressed by a certain alien rat. Distributing this technique is something that threatens the Incubator's profit margins, and that will make it a fight, but it's something that doesn't depend on your Wish.

Something that doesn't depend on your Wish.

"Our angel?(Did we do wrong?)" the Soujus prompt, their mental voices subdued.

You blink, shaking yourself. Right. You haven't responded.

"Sorry, sorry," you say, grimacing as you hastily assemble an excuse. "It's just... I got stuck thinking through the implications. It's... maybe I should have put up a privacy sphere for this. It's dangerous, because it's a threat to a certain something's bottomline, you know? And it might intervene if we try to teach this more widely."

"... shit, you're right," Akemi says, frowning. "Didn't think that far."

"Disruptive but also easily disruptible," Noriko says thoughtfully. "And it seems fussy enough to actually pull off that convincing people to not use it might not be that hard. I mean, yeah, it's a good backup technique, but... Miss Ayase, Miss Luca, your Soul Gems weren't even that dirty, were they?"

"No, but it is easier with more Soul Gems," they say. "Besides, any amount of effort is worth it, to cleanse the filth blackening the shine of our Souls."

"I'm not saying it is, but it does mean that other means might seem more worth it," Noriko says.

"It has never spoken against us, but it's inevitable that the work of salvation will not go unopposed," the Soujus add. "We believe you will overcome, o angel!"

"It's never that easy, is it?" you say, sighing and raking both hands through your hair. "Sorry, give me a moment to think. And... don't worry about trespassing on my domain, or anything like that. It's a good thing that techniques for cleansing don't only depend on me."

And even as the lie rolls off your tongue, it burns.

Is it just that it comes from the Soujus? That they, who keep calling you an angel and put you up on that pedestal to all but worship as a divine figure, who kidnapped and disembodied so many people, were the ones to figure it out? Maybe that's part of it, that of all people, it had to be them. That if they have a point about this, genuine insight into your... domain, in their words, then what else might they right about? But it's not the whole of the reason, you don't think.

You glare at a potted plant that has done nothing to earn your ire.

Well.

Feelings aren't rational, you know that.

"I think... I think I need more time to figure this one out," you say, biting your lip as you frantically try to cudgel your thoughts in order. "So we keep this under wraps for the moment, if that's OK with you? And I'll keep thinking about it. But if you figure out a good way to sort this out, let me know, how's that?"

"That sounds reasonable," Akemi says with a measured nod.

"As our angel commands!" the Soujus say cheerfully.

"... and if a certain rat comes sniffing around, you let me know, alright?" you add after a moment. "I... mm. This and the eventual telepathy project... ugh, I'll figure out something. I will."

"If you say so," Akemi says, levelling a doubled, dubious look at you. "I mean, it's not like chasing it off is hard."

"I mean, yeah, but it always comes back, doesn't it?" you say, meeting first her yellow eyes, then the green ones. "But yeah, OK, let me rephrase - let me know if it starts harassing you and you need help getting it to go away? I can try running interference or something."

Akemi nods, satisfied.

"We'll be grateful for your help!(We shall deny that creature at every turn we can, we promise,)" the Soujus add. "Thank you for your consideration, o angel!"

You bite back the flare of annoyance at that, and nod instead.

"Alright. Well... that was about all I wanted to know today, so... I should probably head out. And ugh, I don't want to nag," you say, pulling a face. "But yeah. Any troubles, rat-related or otherwise, let me know, please?"

"We shall," Akemi says. She gives you a level look, the dark pink of her eyes serious. "Miss Vee. You've given us so much just for us to be able to find our feet, and we have. We can hold our own, and this is a small thing for us to handle, by comparison."

"... well, good," you say, smiling sheepishly. "Sorry."

"We appreciate it," Akemi says, sitting forward. "But it sounds like you're headed out?"

"Yeah, I've got some thinking to do, and I don't want to impose while I do that."

"You wouldn't be, but if you're sure-" Akemi waits for your nod befoe continuing, "-then let me see you out."

"Until next time, o angel!(Please return soon, our angel!)" the Soujus call. Their Soul Gems buzz a little in the bowl, Akemi giving them a careful look, but they don't stir any further than that.

Akemi leaves her girlfriend behind to follow you out, waiting politely as you put your boots back on before speaking.

"So, our guests," she says in a quiet voice.

"Yeah?" you say.

"They're well behaved, and I have no complaints about them," she says, the dark pink of her eyes intense beneath her fringe as she focuses on you. "They even seem happy."

"... sounds like there's a but coming?" you prompt.

"Mm," Akemi says, giving you a serious look. "It's not going to last forever. I don't know exactly how long they're willing to wait, but they've been talking about your grand mission and plans and all. More importantly, they talk like they expect to be given a part in it, some mission of their own, which they want to prepare for. They've convinced themselves of it. You get what I'm saying?"

"Yeah. Yeah, alright, I hear what you're saying," you say, frowning. "Uh. Right. I am working on figuring out mental health specialists for us, but... if it gets to a critical point, let me know?"

Akemi snorts.

"Yeah, duh," she says, rolling her eyes. "I'm letting you know of a potential future problem because we're not planning on running into it facefirst."

"You wouldn't believe how many people I know who would. Myself included, sometimes," you grumble. "But alright. Thanks for keeping me in the loop. See you around?"

"Mmh," Akemi says. "Pulling our weight is the least we can do, with what you've given us. See you around."

You smile as the door closes, and only as you turn away do you let it fade. Thankfully, none of them seem to have cottoned on to your discomfort. You head for the roof, then take flight, soaring up over the rooftops of Mitakihara as you try to clear your head.

The mid-morning sun blazes bright and cheerful in the clear blue skies, illuminating a bustling Mitakihara in a gentle radiance. Even with the students in their schools and officeworkers at their offices, the streets throng with activity, of construction, of transport, of people living their lives. It's enough to buoy your mood even as you climb into the skies and they dwindle away to tiny specks amongst the great monoliths of the buildings.

Ugh.

Emotions aren't rational, you know that much. There doesn't need to be a good reason for the Soujus' cleansing technique to burn in your gut like this, but you'd rather think there should be a reason for it. And it can't be just the fact that it's cleansing that doesn't involve your Wish, didn't involve you. It's a good thing, dammit. It is.

You stew on it, banking slowly -and unnecessarily- on the thermals rising high over Mitakihara. But your thoughts go nowhere, circling those same concerns round and around, until you're finally startled from your funk by the feel of a telepathic connection being made.

"Oi. I can see you flapping about up there," Kyouko thinks at you, dry and drawling. "Got a tough Witch here, come earn your keep."

[x] Go help Kyouko and Yuma
- [] Strike up a conversation about...
-- [] The Soujus
-- [] Kyouko's thoughts about...
--- [] Mami
--- [] Sabrina
--- [] Sayaka
--- [] Someone/something else?
- [] Continue hunting with her afterwards
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)

=====​

And here, finally, we are. I am so, so sorry this one took so long - something about being on vacation just completely drained me of energy for the first while, and it took me a while to get the momentum for writing back. But we're back, with the first update of the year, and it's a big one! Hopefully I can keep this momentum going.

Do feel free to speculate on Sabrina's thoughts there too! She's gonna be thinking about it throughout her hunting with Kyouko.

 

[PenguZ]

Hope you enjoyed the vacation, glad to have you back!

 

[October Daye]

Hm. Very interesting that the Souju's technique causes Sabrina such emotional discomfort. Very, very interesting...

Sabrina's a Wishborn being in the first place, and this technique the Souju duo have seems to suggest... well? That the Wish which birthed Sabrina, and the Wish Sabrina herself made, were never necessary in the first place. "If this is possible, if this is a thing that could always be done, then why did I come into being in the first place? Why not just... propagate this? Why create me?"

And all of this makes me think there's another shoe to drop here. That there's something more to it than just the Incubators arranging for the knowledge to die with the ones who keep discovering it, that maybe there's some downside we haven't seen yet.

That maybe there IS a rational explanation to Sabrina's emotions: it's both the Wish that created her and the Wish she herself made trying to warn her that this isn't a silver bullet, that there is Something Wrong Here That You Just Haven't Seen Yet.

But only time will tell, and until then...

 

[Lopezelpesado]

Its very strange...

Magical girls by design seem to ALWAYS work better when working with eachother.

From healing, to enchanting... Then there was that thing we can do with mami to extend our range....

And now apperantly magical girls can cleanse themselves if they work together....

But it doesnt make sense. If the incubators made the system, why would they design it in a way that allows the Magical girls to survive so long as they work with eachother? Why even add features like cleansing without grief seeds?

 

[Godwinson]

Hm. Very interesting that the Souju's technique causes Sabrina such emotional discomfort. Very, very interesting...

Sabrina's a Wishborn being in the first place, and this technique the Souju duo have seems to suggest... well? That the Wish which birthed Sabrina, and the Wish Sabrina herself made, were never necessary in the first place. "If this is possible, if this is a thing that could always be done, then why did I come into being in the first place? Why not just... propagate this? Why create me?"

And all of this makes me think there's another shoe to drop here. That there's something more to it than just the Incubators arranging for the knowledge to die with the ones who keep discovering it, that maybe there's some downside we haven't seen yet.

That maybe there IS a rational explanation to Sabrina's emotions: it's both the Wish that created her and the Wish she herself made trying to warn her that this isn't a silver bullet, that there is Something Wrong Here That You Just Haven't Seen Yet.

But only time will tell, and until then...

Click to shrink...

Honestly, I think this is just Sabrina encountering genuine jealousy in her own right for the first time. That there's something which exists which makes her not an irreplaceable unique super-special protagonist that everyone needs.

Its very strange...

Magical girls by design seem to ALWAYS work better when working with eachother.

From healing, to enchanting... Then there was that thing we can do with mami to extend our range....

And now apperantly magical girls can cleanse themselves if they work together....

But it doesnt make sense. If the incubators made the system, why would they design it in a way that allows the Magical girls to survive so long as they work with eachother? Why even add features like cleansing without grief seeds?

Click to shrink...

Because frankly, the Incubators claim a lot more capability and intention than they demonstrate. Their con-artists and simply by framing their excuses in a particular way they can ensure that they come across as more capable than their actual minimum necessary capacities for what they do.

 

[Shadowhisker]

I'm willing to stake my bet on this being Sabrina just being totally unused to jealousy, perhaps augmented by The Fucking Soujous being our source on this technique, and Sabrina's mindset being shaped by her Wish being her first ever decision- absolute control over all grief, everywhere, and the desire for such control, is a fundamental part of Sabrina.

Honestly, when we finally get those shrinks, it'd do us some good to book sessions ourselves.

 

[theshroomdude]

I got ninja's by fern, but will post anyways:

The incubators are invested enough in the long game that the entire plot is caused by them employing proactive measures to prevent the heat death of the universe—something which would take on the order of hundreds of trillions of years from now. They are not going to knowingly allow us to stop their operations by implementing a witch-less solution. If they somehow do, that means they have already calculated our system's downfall.

So anways, as was pretty clearly hinted at in the chapter, grief cleansing is definitely dangerous. The implication hinted at is that to some degree it's a self-destructive process and/or the incubators always step in when it's discovered.

I have to drive home from work but to briefly put the thought out as to what makes us and our original wish necessary when this technique already exists: our minds, social skills, utopian agenda, and griefhax. Griefhax really seem to be our true power after all.

 

[NitroFumetsu]

There is a sentence this update that is trying to escape out the right side of my screen entirely.

Nani the fuck?

 

[Norad the Borad]

I'm not sure what to think here. I think both answers are plausible. I'd have to reread this update when I can more clearly define my thoughts to have an opinion.

 

[Redshirt Army]

Yeah, this is almost certainly a Wish thing. Maybe a Wishborn thing in particular too, but this just generally falls into the broad bucket of "relinquishing control", which is something Sabrina is bad at, and relinquishing control over grief in particular, which conflicts with her wish even further.

I don't think it's anything close to, like, Wish Rejection or anything, but I suspect that Sabrina in particular is going to be hideously unsuited to teaching this technique to anyone else - which is fine.

We can talk to Mami about it at some point, have people act as a sanity-check if Sabrina gets irrational on the topic, and delegate the actual spreading of it to other people in Constellation.

 

[Godwinson]

Yeah, this is almost certainly a Wish thing.

Click to shrink...

More like an SV Quest Protagonist thing. Fortunately Sabrina is a bit more mature (after all, her quest is ten years old!) so she doesn't immediately pitch a fit.