If you all really feel that Homura and Kyouko are guilty of murder and worse, your reaction should not be "lurk until someone really awful comes along and then de-lurk to derail the thread #bothsides". Instead, you should have spoken up at the beginning and pointed out that you believed that our friends were all horrible people and that Sabrina's goals were all incoherent because we were working with people that undermined our goals simply by existing. Be more like Sereg. Speak your mind whenever you have a problem, so it can be dealt with properly and promptly and not during an important vote.
If you thought that all of our friends are as bad as Riona, you should have said so when we were in the process of deciding whether they should have been part of our social group, not after the fact, and certainly not in votes like this.
That is not what I'm saying at all, thank you. I did not speak up about this earlier precisely because I do not think all of our friends terrible people. I'm speaking up now because all of the arguments that are being used to judge Riona can be applied to all of our friends, but weren't, because I find judging Riona on a standard we didn't judge our friends on to be hypocritical .
 
Hell, now that she knows about Clear Seeds, she might pop by nearby cities, search, steal one from our friend/allies... And while that could theorically lead to Riona going home and not doing any more evil ever, it could also go the other way around. Badly.

That would be a pretty decent outome, all things considered. She'd have outed herself as a bully and thief, and we'd be justified, both in our own eyes and the broader meguca community's, in taking her down.

...It WOULD be really satisfying to zip to her home in timestop and smash her there.

Also more politically convenient and less reckless. Right now, we're surrounded by civilians, facing Rionna who came prepared for a fight, and our allies aren't poised to help, nor have we discussed this problem with them. There's little benefit to attacking right now, at the very least. Not like we can't fly to Rionna's home city in a couple of hours if we need to.
 
If you thought that all of our friends are as bad as Riona, you should have said so when we were in the process of deciding whether they should have been part of our social group, not after the fact.

Ah, I see now.
No, I don't think they are horrible people.
They have done horrible things, yes, like nearly every fucking Magical Girl in this universe, because the system they survive in breeds hostility and despair like cancer by design.
 
If you all really feel that Homura and Kyouko are guilty of murder and worse, your reaction should not be "lurk until someone really awful comes along and then de-lurk to derail the thread #bothsides". Instead, you should have spoken up at the beginning and pointed out that you believed that our friends were all horrible people and that Sabrina's goals were all incoherent because we were working with people that undermined our goals simply by existing. Be more like Sereg. Speak your mind whenever you have a problem, so it can be dealt with properly and promptly and not during an important vote.

What matters isn't what they do in the past to escape damnation. What matters is that when they enter our dominion and are given the opportunity, they stop. We"re also trying to be the Messiah and that means making an effort to fix everyone. We tried fixing Kyoko. We tried fixing Oriko. We tried fixing Homura. All in spite of their crimes. Why not Rionna?
 
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She's outright admitted to going through several timelines where she executed Oriko and Kirika, for the crime of attempting to kill (or successfully killing) Madoka in timelines previous to those. That's the thought crime. That O & K are alive right now does not mean that Homura did not murder them (and was therefore willing to accept a timeline where she had murdered them in order to save Madoka). I believe it was also implied that those two are not the only people she's killed in the past because it was convenient for her at the time to remove them.

edit: so maybe mass murderer is a bit much, but she's also been through a lot of loops.

As for the first part, look, I'm not saying that what Riona has done isn't worse than what Kyouko has done. I'm saying that they are both terrible, and trying to create a scale of absolute morality isn't helpful to any of our goals.

She went around a few loops killing Oriko and Kirika again and again and again until she stopped. And that's what we know of her by her own admission.

I mean, you can argue the severity of this, but you can't argue its factuality.

She repeatedly killed Oriko just because she might become a future threat. This is her official, confirmed characterization for the purposes of PMAS.

... I see the ninja squad were out in force today. Heh.

Anyway.

When this is over we do research on the Iowa group now. I want to be able to know if they have tragic sob stories, their exact powers and the threat they pose, if we need to capture them, freezer them or go lethal. This maddening uncertainty cannot happen again.

This. A thousand times this. Let's get on with making our decisions and having our talks well in hand before we need to make them in immediacy, because this situation time-crunch and threat-evaluation is, as @blast flame says, maddening.

Also, at the moment:

[x] Onmur
 
Generally speaking, I'm very, very strongly disinclined to judge magical girls for what they needed to do to survive. The conditions of the magical girl world are monstrous, and so they give rise to monstrous actions.

If we condemn everyone who failed to meet, say, Kyouko's level of standards, then we'll probably need to condemn something like half of all the magical girls currently alive.

I don't think it's particularly unlikely for Rionna, who at least mostly limits herself to "acceptable targets" and reprisals to attacks on her, to end up being on the upper half of the morality scale.

Akiko, who Sabrina has expressed distress for handling roughly, was forcing the University group into actual no-shit non-metaphorical slavery. The grief controller Rionna mentioned witched out "a few score", which is to say over forty, magical girls.

I think we can make some assumptions about Rionna's past at this point. She almost certainly wished to bring back the soul of her sister, or something along those lines. Her magic seems to have very few direct offensive applications beyond ripping people's souls out, meaning her wraiths are her only method of non-immediately lethal conflict. And she has some sort of drive that pushes her to hunt down and "punish" those that falsely claim to be grief controllers.

It's easy to see how someone in that situation would be forced to use her power to survive, and there's any number of tragic stories that can fit the facts as we know them. Nobody's the villain from their own point of view.
 
She's outright admitted to going through several timelines where she executed Oriko and Kirika, for the crime of attempting to kill (or successfully killing) Madoka in timelines previous to those. That's the thought crime. That O & K are alive right now does not mean that Homura did not murder them (and was therefore willing to accept a timeline where she had murdered them in order to save Madoka). I believe it was also implied that those two are not the only people she's killed in the past because it was convenient for her at the time to remove them.

edit: so maybe mass murderer is a bit much, but she's also been through a lot of loops.

As for the first part, look, I'm not saying that what Riona has done isn't worse than what Kyouko has done. I'm saying that they are both terrible, and trying to create a scale of absolute morality isn't helpful to any of our goals.

She went around a few loops killing Oriko and Kirika again and again and again until she stopped. And that's what we know of her by her own admission.
( e: I might be mistaken about Kirika. Gotta look for a relevant quote. )

I mean, you can argue the severity of this, but you can't argue its factuality.

She repeatedly killed Oriko just because she might become a future threat. This is her official, confirmed characterization for the purposes of PMAS.

I don't consider killing two people over and over to be mass murder. Murdering them massively, sure, but... :p

Also, we're actively putting a stop to that behavior just like we're trying to make Riona stop her soul bullshit, and we're even willing to forgive her for her past actions if she acts in good faith to us, like we're doing with Homura.

There's no hypocrisy at all, fuck all of that thinking.
 
What matters isn't what they do in the past to escape damnation. What matters is that when they enter our dominion and are given the opportunity, they stop. We"re also trying to be the Messiah and that means making an effort to fix everyone. We tried fixing Kyoko. We tried fixing Oriko. We tried fixing Homura. All in spite of their crimes. Why not Rionna?
Because Rionna has said that if we try to get her to stop, she'll fucking kill us?
"Whisht," Rionna snaps, and smirks. It's not a nice smirk. "I rip people's Souls out, screaming and kicking. It's not pretty and it's not nice. Who knows, maybe I've done it to some 'good people'. Wouldn't know for sure, I wouldn't. But here's how it is: You don't tell me how to do things, and I don't finish a fight neither of us want."
 
Ah, I see now.
No, I don't think they are horrible people.
They have done horrible things, yes, like nearly every fucking Magical Girl in this universe, because the system they survive in breeds hostility and despair like cancer by design.
Okay. So if you're not going to do anything, what's your plan?
There's a saying. Villains act, heroes react.
This quest isn't about hard girls making hard decisions. If you're proposing that we need to make the hard choice to let the mass murderer go because she's only murdering people that she thinks deserves it and we have bigger things to be worrying about, you've completely missed the point.

There is a difference between "forgive past sins" and "let them keep going". We can judge Riona or not, but wherever we decide, she is not going to go back to Edinburgh to keep killing people that she thinks deserves it, any more than we' let Homura kill Oriko.
 
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Generally speaking, I'm very, very strongly disinclined to judge magical girls for what they needed to do to survive. The conditions of the magical girl world are monstrous, and so they give rise to monstrous actions.

If we condemn everyone who failed to meet, say, Kyouko's level of standards, then we'll probably need to condemn something like half of all the magical girls currently alive.

I don't think it's particularly unlikely for Rionna, who at least mostly limits herself to "acceptable targets" and reprisals to attacks on her, to end up being on the upper half of the morality scale.

Akiko, who Sabrina has expressed distress for handling roughly, was forcing the University group into actual no-shit non-metaphorical slavery. The grief controller Rionna mentioned witched out "a few score", which is to say over forty, magical girls.

I think we can make some assumptions about Rionna's past at this point. She almost certainly wished to bring back the soul of her sister, or something along those lines. Her magic seems to have very few direct offensive applications beyond ripping people's souls out, meaning her wraiths are her only method of non-immediately lethal conflict. And she has some sort of drive that pushes her to hunt down and "punish" those that falsely claim to be grief controllers.

It's easy to see how someone in that situation would be forced to use her power to survive, and there's any number of tragic stories that can fit the facts as we know them. Nobody's the villain from their own point of view.
Hey you.

As a thought experiment, would you mind trying to franken Narrator's, redzonejoe's and my vote, to see what that would look like? If you want. I'm trying to think on it and I can't find a way to unite them.
Adhoc vote count started by Onmur on Aug 2, 2018 at 2:38 PM, finished with 142637 posts and 25 votes.

  • [X] Reaction: Disappointment.
    -[X] Calm down.
    -[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
    [X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
    -[X] Put your cards on the table. Your goals are:
    --[X] To free Magical Girls from the need for Seeds and territory; to allow them to have normal lives.
    --[X] To reverse Witchification.
    -[X] Nadia thinks we're crazy for wanting this, but both she and Kyuubey confirmed our power works. We cando this.
    [X] Ask Riona:
    -[X] Whether she can help with any of that.
    -[X] What does she want?
    [x] Keep Rionna talking.
    -[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?
    [x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
    -[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
    --[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
    ---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
    [x] You flew half way around the world to find a real Grief cleanser, and you're just going to leave? No. You came here looking for something. Well, so am I. Let's deal.
    [x] I'm trying to figure out how to turn a witch back into a person. The Clear Seed is the first step. They have thousands of times the capacity of regular Grief Seeds. One of these can keep a magical girl clean for centuries. And eventually we hope to enchant something that will do the job without needing souls at all. No more witchouts. No more used Seeds going into Kyubey's back for him to do god-knows-what to. No more need for girls to put themselves through this hell of hunting and fighting to survive. We can all just live like real people.
    [x] When we no longer need Seeds to survive, we can start helping them, too. We've already gotten some small results from injecting positive emotions into the Clear Seed. Your soul powers might be the key to making this back into a Soul Gem.
    [x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but I'm not your enemy. I want to help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm that I'm for real.
    [x] You fought the false Grief Cleansers because they were witching girls out. We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
    [x] Please. Help us.
    [X] You don't care, do you?
    [X] Gem her if the answer is no.
    [X] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
    -[X] "You're not very easy to work with."
    [X] Explain and demonstrate your power
    -[X] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
    -[X] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
    --[X] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.
    [X] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
    -[X] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
    --[X] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
    ---[X] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.
    [X] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. What's her place going to be in things?
    -[X] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
    -[X] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
    -[X] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
    --[X] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.
    [X] Discretely call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting with her, Homura and Sayaka
    -[X] Get them up to date with the meering with Riona.
    -[X] Discuss the next course of action
    [x] Why?
    [X]You want my power that badly? Do you have any power copiers you can try to get mine? The ones I've met can't do it. I could use an insurance policy.
 
This quest isn't about hard girls making hard decisions. If you're proposing that we need to make the hard choice to let the mass murderer go because she's only murdering people that she thinks deserves it and we have bigger things to be worrying about, you've completely missed the point.

I dunno, "kill her" is a pretty "hard girl makes hard decision" approach too.

Hey you.

As a thought experiment, would you mind trying to franken Narrator's, redzonejoe's and my vote, to see what that would look like? If you want. I'm trying to think on it and I can't find a way to unite them.

On it.
 
Also, we're actively putting a stop to that behavior just like we're trying to make Riona stop her soul bullshit, and we're even willing to forgive her for her past actions if she acts in good faith to us, like we're doing with Homura.

There's no hypocrisy at all, fuck all of that thinking.
Yes, but before we talked to Homura (and Kyouko) about changing their behavior, we put in leg work to get them on our side. We also had a free "in" because of Meta Knowledge. Just because we don't have all of her buttons on our display to push, doesn't mean we can skip putting in that leg work with Riona.
 
Mmmthe thread appears to be a bit on fire at the moment. Oh well. Cya all next update. Onmur you really need to put some meat on your vote.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Aug 2, 2018 at 2:43 PM, finished with 142643 posts and 25 votes.

  • [X] Reaction: Disappointment.
    -[X] Calm down.
    -[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
    [X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
    -[X] Put your cards on the table. Your goals are:
    --[X] To free Magical Girls from the need for Seeds and territory; to allow them to have normal lives.
    --[X] To reverse Witchification.
    -[X] Nadia thinks we're crazy for wanting this, but both she and Kyuubey confirmed our power works. We cando this.
    [X] Ask Riona:
    -[X] Whether she can help with any of that.
    -[X] What does she want?
    [x] Keep Rionna talking.
    -[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?
    [x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
    -[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
    --[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
    ---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
    [x] You flew half way around the world to find a real Grief cleanser, and you're just going to leave? No. You came here looking for something. Well, so am I. Let's deal.
    [x] I'm trying to figure out how to turn a witch back into a person. The Clear Seed is the first step. They have thousands of times the capacity of regular Grief Seeds. One of these can keep a magical girl clean for centuries. And eventually we hope to enchant something that will do the job without needing souls at all. No more witchouts. No more used Seeds going into Kyubey's back for him to do god-knows-what to. No more need for girls to put themselves through this hell of hunting and fighting to survive. We can all just live like real people.
    [x] When we no longer need Seeds to survive, we can start helping them, too. We've already gotten some small results from injecting positive emotions into the Clear Seed. Your soul powers might be the key to making this back into a Soul Gem.
    [x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but I'm not your enemy. I want to help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm that I'm for real.
    [x] You fought the false Grief Cleansers because they were witching girls out. We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
    [x] Please. Help us.
    [X] You don't care, do you?
    [X] Gem her if the answer is no.
    [X] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
    -[X] "You're not very easy to work with."
    [X] Explain and demonstrate your power
    -[X] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
    -[X] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
    --[X] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.
    [X] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
    -[X] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
    --[X] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
    ---[X] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.
    [X] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. What's her place going to be in things?
    -[X] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
    -[X] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
    -[X] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
    --[X] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.
    [X] Discretely call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting with her, Homura and Sayaka
    -[X] Get them up to date with the meering with Riona.
    -[X] Discuss the next course of action
    [x] Why?
    [X]You want my power that badly? Do you have any power copiers you can try to get mine? The ones I've met can't do it. I could use an insurance policy.
 
Okay. So if you're not going to do anything, what's your plan?

This quest isn't about hard girls making hard decisions. If you're proposing that we need to make the hard choice to let the mass murderer go because she's only murdering people that she thinks deserves it and we have bigger things to be worrying about, you've completely missed the point.

There is a difference between "forgive past sins" and "let them keep going". We can judge Riona or not, but wherever we decide, she is not going to go back to Edinburgh to keep killing people that she thinks deserves it, any more than we' let Homura kill Oriko.

Theres something you overlooked.

"Thinks deserves it?"

Who else is there to judge? Magical Girl society is the Hobbesian state of nature, where the only justice is what you make.

We can make justice by targeting her but in the end, "Thinks they deserve it" is the only real standard for meguca.
 
If you all really feel that Homura and Kyouko are guilty of murder and worse, your reaction should not be "lurk until someone really awful comes along and then de-lurk to derail the thread #bothsides". Instead, you should have spoken up at the beginning and pointed out that you believed that our friends were all horrible people and that Sabrina's goals were all incoherent because we were working with people that undermined our goals simply by existing.
Uh, what?

The point is that we're willing to forgive people for their past actions and give them a chance to be better. That's not incoherent unless we decide, arbitrarily, not to do that this time.

----

Also, I had another thought. Everyone saying we should just take Rionna out and have Sayaka copy her power... what exactly makes you think Sayaka is going to agree to that? This whole time, we've been asking people for permission for Sayaka to copy their powers. How are we going to convince Sayaka that this time, this power is important enough to take by force?
 
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Yes, but before we talked to Homura (and Kyouko) about changing their behavior, we put in leg work to get them on our side. We also had a free "in" because of Meta Knowledge. Just because we don't have all of her buttons on our display to push, doesn't mean we can skip putting in that leg work with Riona.

Kay, well, again, Homura and Kyouko didn't threaten to murder us for trying to social them.
 
Remember times when Asunaro was thought to be filled with murderously insane maniacs because of our metaknowledge?
I don't, I wasn't there. :V

Remember times when Oriko was thought to be a murderously insane maniac because of our metaknowledge?

Remember times when Riona-
Finish for me. :V
First two tries don't count.
 
I haven't read through all the pages of discussion, so tell me if this was already suggested, but I feel that a good way to get a glimpse of her true intentions would be to take a steadfast stance of "get out, I won't work with you if you do this." If she's willing to reveal what she wants at all, she'll then be the one with the impetus to argue with us for something. If her first option after that is violence, still gives us a pretty good idea of the kind of person we're dealing with, doesn't it?
 
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