AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Pronouns
- She/Her
What if the path to get her to do that involves letting Riona go and then over the course of 3 years slowly getting her to open up and realize she doesn't need to do what she's doing?
I believe Madoka would do it. I doubt the thread has the patience to do it.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Fuck this entire discussion.
[X] Gemsplode her.
We're going to have this discussion about the Iowa Group, and about Walpurgisnacht, and about Kyubey, and fuck all that. They do bad things, and apparently every time we run into someone doing bad things we get a shit-ton of lurkers crawling out of their holes to apologise for the murders and keep us from doing anything to prevent more. Fuck that. If Sabrina's social was functional and our choice was between "redeem" and "freezer", I'd pick redeem. But the way things are going our social is so crippled that the choice is between "let her walk away" and "kill her", and I know which of those I'm taking. I don't want to have this discussion every time we run into someone that might just be "misunderstood". Like Jack Slash and Hannibal Lecter and Emperor Palpatine were misunderstood. No.
Remember, Madokami genocided the race of witches, and she did it by gemsploding every magical girl in history the instant before she witched out. Madokami would fucking do something about this. Regretfully, and in kindness... but inevitably.
[X] Gemsplode her.
We're going to have this discussion about the Iowa Group, and about Walpurgisnacht, and about Kyubey, and fuck all that. They do bad things, and apparently every time we run into someone doing bad things we get a shit-ton of lurkers crawling out of their holes to apologise for the murders and keep us from doing anything to prevent more. Fuck that. If Sabrina's social was functional and our choice was between "redeem" and "freezer", I'd pick redeem. But the way things are going our social is so crippled that the choice is between "let her walk away" and "kill her", and I know which of those I'm taking. I don't want to have this discussion every time we run into someone that might just be "misunderstood". Like Jack Slash and Hannibal Lecter and Emperor Palpatine were misunderstood. No.
Remember, Madokami genocided the race of witches, and she did it by gemsploding every magical girl in history the instant before she witched out. Madokami would fucking do something about this. Regretfully, and in kindness... but inevitably.
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- Location
- East of the Sun and West of the Moon
The part where I entered this conversational subthread was you responding to
with a citation of Sabrina's opinion. I don't see anything in that quote about Sabrina's characterization, just whether or not Riona's actions qualify as slavery. Which is not a question that can be answered by appealing to Sabrinathoughts, because Sabrinathoughts are generated by that discussion in the first place.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
That's because we're also Homura's daughter.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Staff Notice
But wait, there is more.
She also didn't change her complete world view, didn't throw away her entire sense of self, didn't give up all the power she built her life around, didn't agree to become defenseless and live under our benevolent protection... didn't agree to do any of those things the moment we criticized her about the bad things she said.
How dare she.
- Location
- florida
Madokami would fucking do something about this.
Regretfully, and in kindness... but inevitably.
Hm. This is pretty much exactly the opposite of what madokami would do. Or even regular madoka. Have you even seen the show? Or movie?
Or even read any fanfiction? Or even this fanfiction?
Madoka usually does not cleave to the whole "greater good" argument.
She didn't even infinity torture kyubey.
Regretfully, and in kindness... but inevitably.
Hm. This is pretty much exactly the opposite of what madokami would do. Or even regular madoka. Have you even seen the show? Or movie?
Or even read any fanfiction? Or even this fanfiction?
Madoka usually does not cleave to the whole "greater good" argument.
She didn't even infinity torture kyubey.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
[X] Roomba
The sheer level of viciousness and paranoia going on here has me quite literally sick to my stomach. I can't engage with this thread more than to make this vote.
The sheer level of viciousness and paranoia going on here has me quite literally sick to my stomach. I can't engage with this thread more than to make this vote.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I absolutely motherfucking do not. Madoka wouldn't let someone running around ripping the souls out of people for three years hoping they open up over a cup of tea.
At the end of the day, she is still someone who will shoot you in the motherfucking gem to protect her friends and other innocent people. She nearly made a contract in order to have the power to stop Kyouko and Sayaka from fighting with force.
No it's fucking not. Stop fucking misrepresenting people's viewpoints like Firn asked.
Read the thread better, then, because it came up before the point you quoted. The issue of Sabrina's characterization has been rolling around since before the update.
I would be sympathetic to that if she didn't also threaten us and gloat about ripping possibly good people's souls out kicking and screaming with a wicked smirk on her face. Hell, I would be sympathetic if she said "I can't do that, I don't want to do that, but I won't take any souls in your city and I'll hear you out on what you got to say."
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
And then she created an entire dimension akin to heaven where all these girls could spend eternity in bliss?
And before that she destroyed and recreated a universe, so let's add a few more zeroes to Madoka's murder count.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Uh, sidestepping the whole moral argument for a second, I think this is a bad idea on a tactical level.
Rionna is much more experienced then us, and I really don't trust Sabrina to do this with no tells. Even if she doesn't manage a mutual kill because our soul is weird or whatever, I'm nearly certain going for a quickdraw contest with Rionna ends with us suffering permanent soul damage.
kinigget
Best Demon
- Location
- People's Republic of Portland
Okay look
I do have issues with death as a punishment because it can't be taken back
But
I trust Rionna's discretion enough that I don't have a problem working for her without attaching the condition that she stop
I'm also perfectly willing to let her go if she won't play ball
If it isn't her job to act as judge, jury, and executioner, then neither is it ours
I do have issues with death as a punishment because it can't be taken back
But
I trust Rionna's discretion enough that I don't have a problem working for her without attaching the condition that she stop
I'm also perfectly willing to let her go if she won't play ball
If it isn't her job to act as judge, jury, and executioner, then neither is it ours
"I've befriended girls that've blow off my lower torso, so you'll need to show more teeth if you're trying to bait me."
- Location
- East of the Sun and West of the Moon
And I was not responding to any of the parts where that issue came up. As I said, I'm deliberately not trying to address most of what's going on, because I don't need all this shitstorm in my life. I was responding to one particular argument you made, that Sabrina's opinion proved that Riona was a slaver.
Dude. This is not remotely helpful.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
If I condemned people for saying bad things, I would have to go on a murder spree.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Also, fair warning @Godwinson , @AuraTwilight , if I see many more calls to straight up kill Rionna like Vebyast and Aranfan have done, I'm probably going to switch to Roomba's vote. So, uh, one of you might want to copy me or write something up.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Utterly Disgusting. How dare the Magic Sheriff not recognize "THE NEW LAW"
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Putting aside the condescension for a moment, and how Kyubey was an emotionless robot toiling to save the universe and Madoka only disagreed with his methods:
Madoka sold her soul and existence in order to free all Magical Girls from his slavery. She did it without any hesitation. She did it with every fiber of her motherfucking being.
I'm fine with just rocking her, I'd rather not gemsmash/kill her. But I would rather that the souls she's taken were released to the afterlife because then they'd be safe, free, and happy, and not possibly getting filled with her grief off-load, which may or may not be happening and I admit we don't know for sure but it's possible and likely enough to be worth concern.
Not helping.
Dude, fucking drop it, it doesn't even fucking matter, it's not even one of the core arguments going on here and you're just pissing me off. No one said it proved Riona was a slaver, only that Sabrina thought she was a slaver, which is the meaningful point being made here. Because of the update, what we do now officially reflects how Sabrina morally approaches the idea of slavery. That's a factual reality we need to deal with, here.
I'm condemning someone threatening to kill me and my girlfriend, in this allegory. You absolutely can and should condemn people making threats of violence, that's not Free Speech in most countries.
Bruh we're both on your bandwagon lol.
- Location
- Illinois
I think we're all missing some critical points, here.
Pre-booked tickets. Why?
Options: either she figured not pre-booking was stupid because the chance of us being real was nil, or she didn't care if we were real or not.
She doesn't even really care about the clear seed -- and, perhaps, why should she? She's clearly an experienced international traveler, holds a city on her own, has survived all the bombs... I mean, we're looking at someone who Kyubey really can't kill on a whim, basically. In her experience, there's nothing to stop her from going wherever she wants and taking whatever she wants, is my guess. She's not worried about the "safety, security" offered by a clear seed because she views herself as already being that safe, so long as she retains her army. And I think her willingness to actually kill us -- to kill the grief controller -- rather than give up her army... I think that says everything we need to know about her views. She's interested in herself, her own desires (whatever they are), and I don't think she cares one iota about the well-being of others.
She assumes she's the preeminent power here, because we're new. She thinks she could kill us at a whim, because she has accumulated so much power that in her experience she would be right -- the kinds of power Mitakihara group can throw around are outside context for her with how quickly they've developed.
And so from her point of view, giving up her army is stupid. It's not about morality, or ethics, or any of that -- it's the simple fact that her self-interest dictates that as long as she has her army, she has her life.
We can't work with this girl, morally or securely. We could let her go, with the explicit premise of forcing her to give up her shades after fixing the system.
But... another thing that worries me, vaguely is her insistence on her city.
The one-day return tickets, the everything... What's the situation in Scotland? Who knows?
She's wrong about one thing, here:
We do have that right.
People here have complained about how we hand out clear seeds and use seeds and blah blah blah and how it makes us so terrible, but let me tell you this:
If we were faced with this situation from her position, looking the idealistic miracle grief controller who wants to make a better world in the eye:
We would not be willing to fucking kill her, no matter what. Even if it meant trusting in her blindly. We might not like it. We might not be happy about it. But to even consider extinguishing that sort of hope for a truly, honestly better world? Madokami on high...
We distribute clear seeds because we must: because it tamps down on the total suffering of the universe until we can find a better solution.
She maintains her army because she can, and because she knows that having it means she is safe, whatever its cost may be.
The problem with this, then:
Is that she already knows what we want.
Given what she has seen, and what she has done, and that we told her this:
I think it's foolish to figure anything less than that she already recognizes we want to dewitch people and etcetera.
And more than that, I think it's foolish to assume she has any desire to help us. She came here with a pre-booked one-day round-trip ticket. The first question out of her mouth after we proved we were real was how we did it, not what the plan to save the world was, not what the problems were, not if we were safe... She came here because she could, to satisfy her own curiosity. Not out of any need or desire to benefit from us, or to help us benefit others...
Like, ping me if you have actual grounds to disagree with any of what I'm saying, here. Ping me, if you don't look at what I'm saying and think to yourself, "yeah, that's... that's pretty logical."
So, Onmur, the problem I'm hypothesizing exists here is this:
Assuming we get to the bottom of that vote, the responses are:
She could help with all of it.
She would like a clear seed: it would make her life slightly easier.
Let me reiterate the biggest point in this post, here: this girl is willing to kill someone who has actual, unprecedented grief-cleansing powers and can already produce clear seeds because that person disagrees with her actions.
The only reasonable counterpoint to that is "well look at all the pressure we're putting on her." But that counter misses the point of what I'm saying:
Right here:
She believes that she has overwhelming superiority over us, power-wise. Given that belief, why threaten to kill us instead of just saying that she'll just fucking leave???
There are people in this thread who have called this girl a monster. This, right here, makes me trend towards agreeing with them -- someone with power and self-interest who believes that the world, their world, would be improved by having us remain alive... they would just leave. What she has said, here... it amounts to "better the entire world burn than I let you make me do this thing I don't want to do."
I'll be more than happy to stand here and watch us try to social her into something reasonable until she gets fed up with it. What I'm writing here -- it's not going to end in "and this is why we should shoot her."
It's going to end in "this is why we're eventually going to end up shooting her."
Why? Well, okay, so, as a reminder, this is the condition we generally put on clear seeds:
That needs to stay consistent, because consistency breeds trust and more than anything else we need a reputation of being trustworthy. If we could rely on a reputation of being trustworthy at the scale of Mami's reputation as an awesome badass, our mission would become so much easier. No more doubt, no more worrying about whether we'll actually enforce agreements we broker...
And more importantly, the reverse is even more true: inconsistency breeds distrust, especially when there is a Madokami-bedamned incubator running around to exacerbate it.
But this girl -- Rionna Mag Aoidh -- will not accept that condition. "You don't tell me what to do," she said, after all, "and I don't finish a fight neither of us want."
I mean, if she does -- spectacular, probably. If she's up to being a decent person to others in return for a clear seed then to hell with it, I bet we can do more good having her act as a proxy in Britain -- somebody this strong letting people have free cleansing would be great, basically a second 'hotspot' after Mitakihara, since nobody would be stupid enough to tangle with her over the seed. Maybe it would even be great enough to justify letting her keep the shades for the time being (always with the premise of forcing her to let them go later).
The problem is, though, that that would be more trouble to her than she would see it as being worth.
She won't agree to it. She won't agree to be excellent to others whatever we offer her, as-is.
Once that happens, we're left in a position where there aren't many options. We could let her go, to keep enslaving peoples' souls and killing other gucas. Or, we can gem her and let her city implode when Kyubey fills the vacuum.
Those are both shitty options -- and, actually, they're kind of the only options we're currently considering. If anybody here actually believes they can get this girl to agree to "be excellent to people" then I'll be interested in their reaction to the next few posts, whatever happens.
Now, we can elaborate on those. We have a teleporting cloner in need of practical experience, if perhaps shoddy on the English -- we could gem Rionna and dump preventing her city from imploding on Sayaka. It's an option.
We could let her leave, and bet that the negativity created by her living is less than the negativity created by her being gemmed, with the express purpose of going to her city in a few years and absolutely smashing her. The only way we can justify that is if we predicate it on us being unable to alleviate the damage in her city caused by gemming her -- otherwise, it's just an about-face from the policy we set the ground for in Sendai, of refusing to allow meguca to continue to murder each other when we could prevent it, and that runs us face-first into the consistency issue again... not to mention the part where refusing to allow meguca to continue to murder each other when we could prevent it sounds like a helluva plan to me.
And then, I guess, we could try threatening her. We could see how she acts after we've put her in the ground and smashed her perception that she'd "finish that fight." That one's a helluva wildcard, especially in the middle of fucking Mitakihara, and I can't say what it would result in -- but it would probably involve us shooting her.
So, to summarize:
1) I think there's plenty of evidence at this point that if we ask her to be excellent to others -- or even just to stop murdering people to "prove a point" -- and offer her a clear seed in exchange, she'll tell us to fuck off, or otherwise snidely + openly lie to our face. We could condition the clear seed on her merely driving people out rather than killing them and she still wouldn't accept it in good faith, because she doesn't give a damn about the lives of others.
2) I'm totally ready to put that sort of offer on the table, because she won't take it, or if she does she'll be highly implicit about how she won't honor it, and because if she actually took it in good faith she'd be doing a lot of good up in Scotland as part of the bargain.
3) Not doing something about her contradicts the Sendai doctrine, because we are both in a position to do something about her and plausibly capable of doing it without causing lots of harm as part of the aftermath, and if we do nothing she'll happily go on murdering people.
4) We are absolutely in a position to judge her:
> She believes that she has overwhelming superiority over us, power-wise. Given that belief, why threaten to kill us instead of just saying that she'll just fucking leave???
> There are people in this thread who have called this girl a monster. This, right here, makes me trend towards agreeing with them -- someone with power and self-interest who believes that the world, their world, would be improved by having us remain alive... they would just leave. What she has said, here... it amounts to "better the entire world burn than I let you make me do this thing I don't want to do."
And if the content I put down here for (4) isn't good enough for you, go back up read the full context, including where I explicitly argued at length that we are absolutely in a position to judge her before responding.
Edit:
Also, because I seriously don't care what is said for the next few updates as long as it isn't "okay, I forgive you for murdering people" (note: murdering people as opposed to keeping the shades, I still don't care about that ongoing argument since I don't think it's really even relevant to what the outcome is going to be, although yes I do have strong feelings about it):
[X] Null
Eventually, we're going to shoot her. In the face, not the gem.
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- Location
- florida
Sorry. I'm less than pleased at the moment. For a lot of reasons.
So. I'm just kind of low grade whining.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Considering Rebellion however, Madoka is willing to risk herself on subtle schemes for the sake of others. Madoka wouldnt tolerate Riona just doing that. But she might use herself as bait so to stop Riona while she can work on her.
- Location
- Your Native Universe
Instead of looking at what Rionna said as a whole, we should probably be looking at the individual messages that she's said so we can infer why she's doing what she's doing.
She has only been talking to Sabrina for a few minutes at most. To think that she's going to bend over backwards for Sabrina is extremely arrogant at best.
That's not even getting into the topic of possible Magical Girl territory wars that'll happen if she doesn't return to her city.
Long story short, you're not going to change her short term. You're definitely not going to change her anytime soon, because who honestly would change everything that they've been doing just for someone they've known for an incredibly short time?
She will not stop what she's doing because she outright doesn't trust Sabrina. This is a veteran Magical Girl who knows all the nasty truths about the Magical Girl system and how bad Magical Girls can be. You have to be powerful and ruthless to survive in the Magical Girl system for as long as she has, or else you die or turn into a Witch. No ifs, ands, or buts.
She has only been talking to Sabrina for a few minutes at most. To think that she's going to bend over backwards for Sabrina is extremely arrogant at best.
Here, she outright says that she has to use her power in order to secure her city, which sorta ties into the theory that her soul-ripping power is pretty much the only combat-related option she has. No, she's not going to deliberately depower herself just because someone she's known for a few minutes asked her to. No, she's not going to give up the only method that she has of keeping control of her city. She's not going to give anything up because by her experiences, these are things she needs in order to survive.
That's not even getting into the topic of possible Magical Girl territory wars that'll happen if she doesn't return to her city.
Long story short, you're not going to change her short term. You're definitely not going to change her anytime soon, because who honestly would change everything that they've been doing just for someone they've known for an incredibly short time?
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