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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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zxzx24 said:
What about killing people because your girlfriends dead and you hate everyone and you just want to make them hurt?

Or killing everyone because you have a batshit insane view of how the world works.
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Homura does not hate everyone, nor want to make people hurt- look at her reaction in episodes. Even when Mami is basically going "show your face around me again and I'll have to kick your ass" Homura's body language is basically going "dammit dammit dammit" and she's visibly horrified when she realizes Mami is dead. She even stopped killing Oriko after OM when it became clear she probably wouldn't do it again- because she doesn't like killing people, and the very instant we gave her an alternative she basically went "Oh thank god"
 
MMmmm.

Gosh im terrible with names.
The magical girl whos friend died and she tried to wipe out that one group because she felt they were responsible?

...

Shit thats happened twice hast it. Both of them. Both of those girls.
 
Gadjo said:
No...? We've clearly demonstrated true cleansing. Even if that was all Sabrina could do a massive powerbase would easily build up around her. And uh, I know it looks like she's feeling judged but uh, good? Generally you ought to feel judged for stealing people's souls? People you meet not liking you when you go full evil in a game is generally expected, because of that time you stole a bunch of people's souls, and the fact that you're currently bragging about it?
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Yes, our cleansing.

That's it.

She has no idea how much more we can do. Exotic grief constructs, lightning fast activation of powers, casual physics breakage. She's barely seen the surface.

Gadjo said:
I don't want to kill her, I want to jail her. She needs to go to meguca jail. For gross acts of "holy shit what the fuck"
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Not really an option... She's mad too powerful to realistically confine so far as I can see.
 
Gadjo said:
Homura does not hate everyone, nor want to make people hurt- look at her reaction in episodes. Even when Mami is basically going "show your face around me again and I'll have to kick your ass" Homura's body language is basically going "dammit dammit dammit" and she's visibly horrified when she realizes Mami is dead. She even stopped killing Oriko after OM when it became clear she probably wouldn't do it again- because she doesn't like killing people, and the very instant we gave her an alternative she basically went "Oh thank god"
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Homura also did what Riona did, especially in rebellion. She put up a front and acted like the big bad evil girl in charge because it was safer than being afraid all of the time. It took a while to get her trust us.
Edit:
Did something happen with Ugolino? They are sending me a lot of PMs.

Im wondering why they are not in the thread doing so. Is what I am saying.
 
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zxzx24 said:
Did something happen with Ugolino? They are sending me a lot of PMs.

Im wondering why they are not in the thread doing so. Is what I am saying.
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Ugo got threadbanned.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 2, 2018 at 6:45 PM, finished with 510 posts and 31 votes.
  • [X] Reaction: Disappointment. Tone: Very serious.
    -[X] Calm down.
    -[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
    [X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
    -[X] Show her Aurora.
    --[X] Ask if she sees anything unusual in the Seed.
    --[X] Briefly explain your dewitchification experiments.
    -[X] When you heard about her from Nadia, you were really happy, because an expert on souls could make a huge difference in making this dream a reality.
    -[X] ...but you can't work with her. Not while she continues to enslave souls. You'll try not to judge, but you're not going to condone it.
    [X] She came here with the intent of killing another false Grief controller. What does she intend to do now?
    -[X] She went out of her way to present herself as a villain who enjoys enslaving others. You don't intend to buy into that provocation, if that's what she was hoping for.
    -[X] She is free to stay in Mitakihara as long as she doesn't cause any trouble.
    -[X] Your offer remains open, if she changes her mind.
    [X] Be on guard for any aggressive moves, and be ready to signal Mami and Homura if it looks like Rionna is going to attack.
    [x] Keep Rionna talking.
    -[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?
    [x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
    -[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
    --[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
    ---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
    [x] You flew half way around the world to find a real Grief cleanser, and you're just going to leave? No. You came here looking for something. Well, so am I. Let's deal.
    [x] I'm trying to figure out how to turn a witch back into a person. The Clear Seed is the first step. They have thousands of times the capacity of regular Grief Seeds. One of these can keep a magical girl clean for centuries. And eventually we hope to enchant something that will do the job without needing souls at all. No more witchouts. No more used Seeds going into Kyubey's back for him to do god-knows-what to. No more need for girls to put themselves through this hell of hunting and fighting to survive. We can all just live like real people.
    [x] When we no longer need Seeds to survive, we can start helping them, too. We've already gotten some small results from injecting positive emotions into the Clear Seed. Your soul powers might be the key to making this back into a Soul Gem.
    [x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but I'm not your enemy. I want to help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm that I'm for real.
    [x] You fought the false Grief Cleansers because they were witching girls out. We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
    [x] Please. Help us.
    [X] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
    -[X] "You're not very easy to work with."
    [X] Explain and demonstrate your power
    -[X] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
    -[X] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
    --[X] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.
    [X] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
    -[X] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
    --[X] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
    ---[X] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.
    [X] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. What's her place going to be in things?
    -[X] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
    -[X] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
    -[X] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
    --[X] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.
    [X] Discretely call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting with her, Homura and Sayaka
    -[X] Get them up to date with the meering with Riona.
    -[X] Discuss the next course of action
    [x] Why?
    [X] Gemsplode her.
    [X] Null
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I think several people have either forgotten or are actively ignoring the fact that Rionna is a vigilante trying to keep people safe

You can disagree with her methods all you want, but don't pretend she kills randomly or just for fun
 
Alright. I'm going to try for a compromise vote, where we keep talking. @Onmur , @Muramasa , @Kaizuki , @AuraTwilight , @Godwinson , @Vebyast , please, please critique this.

Sabrina has so far managed to avoid killing anyone, or permanently gemming anyone. That's a victory. Resorting to permanently removing a magical girl from the world represents a failure - not a total failure, not an insurmountable failure... to some extent, in the long run, maybe not even an avoidable failure.

But if we can avoid that failure for just a little longer, if we can keep Rionna talking, if we keep trying to let her redeem herself... that would be a good thing. But.

But, we can't let her continue on as she has.

"I hold onto the shades, or they fade away," Rionna says, folding her arms. "I've spent years building my collection. It's what I have to use to secure my city."

"I-" She cuts you off again, leaning forward.

"Whisht," Rionna snaps, and smirks. It's not a nice smirk. "I rip people's Souls out, screaming and kicking. It's not pretty and it's not nice. Who knows, maybe I've done it to some 'good people'. Wouldn't know for sure, I wouldn't. But here's how it is: You don't tell me how to do things, and I don't finish a fight neither of us want."
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[ ] Pray to Madokami. "Everything can be fixed." She redeems everyone, in the end. There's still some good in Riona, surely. There must be, right?

[ ] Quietly: No, she doesn't "have to".
-[ ] You want to help her - you want to help everyone. Offer her cleansing, right now.
--[ ] Deathly serious: You understand that she can't trust you, not right away. But she can ask anyone, she can ask fucking Kyubey, she can test your powers however she wants. They're the real thing. And you're going to change the world with them.

[ ] When you first heard about her from Nadia, you were really happy. An expert on souls could make a huge difference in making your dreams a reality.
-[ ] So please, please, hear us out. You'll offer a lot, so she doesn't have to keep trapping new souls, so releasing old souls is possible for her in time. Up to and including helping her hold Edinburgh, without relying on shades.

[ ] She went out of her way to present herself as a villain who enjoys enslaving others. But nobody's the villain of their own story.
-[ ] She knows that at least some of what she's doing is wrong, she knows that you're offering to give her what she wants - freedom from grief. So please, please, don't keep being cruel - for what reason?
-[ ] And if you're being stupid, if you're being naive, if there's a situation we don't know about - then tell us why! You want to give her what she wants, and all you want in return is that she does something to make the world kinder.
--[ ] Not everything, not right away, not when she can't trust you yet, but just... something, anything!


I think I channeled The Doctor there for a bit.
 
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zxzx24 said:
MMmmm.

Gosh im terrible with names.
The magical girl whos friend died and she tried to wipe out that one group because she felt they were responsible?

...

Shit thats happened twice hast it. Both of them. Both of those girls.
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Anri is in Meguca Jail right now, so...?

Spectral Waltz said:
Not really an option... She's mad too powerful to realistically confine so far as I can see.
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kinigget said:
Then we either never let her out or just shatter her later

It's not any more viable a solution
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Yea, if only we had anti-magic or something. Like we're using...with...Anri.

zxzx24 said:
Homura also did what Riona did, especially in rebellion. She put up a front and acted like the big bad evil girl in charge because it was safer than being afraid all of the time. It took a while to get her trust us.
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No, she did that because Homura hates herself, thinks she deserves to be hated, is contemplating suicide, and actively is trying to burn all her bridges so that Madoka doesn't love her and thus suffer out of worry for her.

If Homura wants a fight, it's because she wants to die.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Alright. I'm going to try for a compromise vote, where we keep talking. @Onmur , @Muramasa , @Kaizuki , @AuraTwilight , @Godwinson , @Vebyast , please, please critique this.

Sabrina has so far managed to avoid killing anyone, or permanently gemming anyone. That's a victory. Resorting to permanently removing a magical girl from the world represents a failure - not a total failure, not an insurmountable failure... to some extent, in the long run, maybe not even an avoidable failure.

But if we can avoid that failure for just a little longer, if we can keep Rionna talking, if we keep trying to let her redeem herself... that would be a good thing. But.

But, we can't let her continue on as she has.



[ ] Pray to Madokami. "Everything can be fixed." She redeems everyone, in the end. There's still some good in Riona, surely. There must be, right?

[ ] Quietly: No, she doen't "have to".
-[ ] You want to help her - you want to help everyone. Offer her cleansing, right now.
--[ ] Deathly serious: You understand that she can't trust you, not right away. But she can ask anyone, she can ask fucking Kyubey, she can test your power however she wants. They're the real thing. And you're going to change the world with them.

[ ] When you first heard about her from Nadia, you were really happy. An expert on souls could make a huge difference in making your dreams a reality.
-[ ] So please, please, hear us out. You'll offer a lot, so she doesn't have to keep trapping new souls, so releasing old souls is possible for her in time. Up to and including helping her hold Edinburgh, without relying on shades.

[ ] She went out of her way to present herself as a villain who enjoys enslaving others. But nobody's the villain of their own story.
-[ ] She knows that at least some of what she's doing is wrong, she knows that you're offering to give her what she wants - freedom from grief. So please, please, don't keep being cruel - for what reason?
-[ ] And if you're being stupid, if you're being naive, if there's a situation we don't know about - then tell us why! You want to give her what she wants, and all you want in return is that she does something to make the world kinder.
--[ ] Not everything, not right away, not when she can't trust you yet, but just... something, anything!


I think I channeled The Doctor there for a bit.
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I am 100% okay with this vote. Can we all stop bickering and go with it?
 
AuraTwilight said:
She's still gonna be here for a day or two, dude.
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Which is barely any time at all, and basically falls under 'don't start shit in someone else's territory', which she has been keeping to, despite possibly arriving under the expectation that she'd have to kill Sabrina on principle. I think that's unreasonable to expect her to come out with that, whether your assessment of her character is negative or not.
 
kinigget said:
Then we either never let her out or just shatter her later

It's not any more viable a solution
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No, we'd keep her around until we had a powerbase and contingencies big enough to let her out for some kind of trial, but most likely sentenced to "we finally found a way to keep you in a room while conscious"
zxzx24 said:
Homura also did what Riona did, especially in rebellion. She put up a front and acted like the big bad evil girl in charge because it was safer than being afraid all of the time. It took a while to get her trust us.
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She didn't- what? She did that because she was despairing and finally did something she herself thought unforgivable. To protect someone. She did not pull anyone into eternal servitude, she literally put them in a world that was as close to ideal for all of them as possible.

Gah. I think I'm done trying to convince people here, it's clearly not getting through. I'm just fairly certain this thread is willing to wave off what she's done and will adamantly continue to do because she's got shiny soul science powers and they want to keep her around for that, and will do any number of mental gymnastics to keep her around no matter what she does.

There's a difference between being forgiving and just ignoring the misdeeds of your potential allies because they have shiny abilities. Seriously, it's fucked up.
 
AuraTwilight said:
No, she did that because Homura hates herself, thinks she deserves to be hated, is contemplating suicide, and actively is trying to burn all her bridges so that Madoka doesn't love her and thus suffer out of worry for her.

If Homura wants a fight, it's because she wants to die.
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So do you agree or disagree?

Im saying Riona is using edginess as a defense mechanism. Is that...? Im confused.
 
kinigget said:
That...doesn't change my point?

At all?
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Yes, it does? Because all the reasoning for keeping her indefinitely rocked is her powers.

PhDEevee said:
Which is barely any time at all, and basically falls under 'don't start shit in someone else's territory', which she has been keeping to, despite possibly arriving under the expectation that she'd have to kill Sabrina on principle. I think that's unreasonable to expect her to come out with that, whether your assessment of her character is negative or not.
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A day is all you need to kill all of Sabrina's friends and steal her soul.

zxzx24 said:
So do you agree or disagree?

Im saying Riona is using edginess as a defense mechanism. Is that...? Im confused.
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So are you saying Riona wants us to kill her?
 
Vebyast said:
When the participation comes in and makes the discussion about whether the fucking mass murderer did anything wrong or should be allowed to continue murdering, yeah, I do get fucking angry. Hijiri was about how best to help her. Oriko was how best to not have to kill her. This? We have people saying that we need more evidence before we can disapprove of the part where she killed a fuckton of people. We have people saying that she made the world a better place and we should let her go back to what she was doing. We have people excusing her claims of outright unjustified murder because she "just" wants an excuse to kill us, take our soul, and keep murdering the fuck out of whoever she liked, as if that's any better. We don't have to deal with any of this shit 99% of the time. Yes, I absolutely do disapprove of the positions that are being brought in. I don't think they are what this quest is about or what we want on this forum.
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And yet, it's you who's voting to outright suddenly murder someone who has yet to even threaten us, and has explicitly referred to "a fight neither of us wants". While the lurkers are voting to keep talking in a likely doomed attempt to achieve some measure of cooperation with Rionna. It's pretty clear to me which of these is more in line with how this thread has chosen to act historically.

Vebyast said:
This does not help your case. Quit it.
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Honestly, I doubt there is anything at all I can say to "help my case" in your eyes, which is why this is my last post on the topic.
 
Has anyone actually tried to use Rionna's powers as a defense of her? Because if they have, then let me be crystal clear: Rionna's powers should have ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the decision we make here. If we take Rionna out it's from timestop, and in timestop it's fairly trivial to arrange a situation where Sayaka can claim her powers safely.

So vote based on your conscience, vote based on what you feel is good for the story, vote for what you think is in character for Sabrina, but please, please, don't vote one way or the other because of shinies.
 
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