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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Another thing to keep in mind is that even if we can convince her that we can provide her an out that she'd be willing to take it's not going to happen all at once. Her power does something terrible that she's had to rely on for years. It's going to be hard for her to let go even if she wants too.
 
Before I read Kaizuki's latest bit, I was suspecting that if we could get her to trust us and we had enough power, then she would give up the whole slavery thing. So, my thought was that we could just ask her what she would need to give up her soul slavery stuff.

I am somewhat concerned that she won't trust us enough to tell us her whole reason for being. Another tack we could take if she isn't willing to tell is to ask her to pretend for a bit that we are as good as we say we are and put herself in our shoes, then tell us what would she do?
 
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Conjured Blade said:
[x] Everyone has a goal of some kind, something that keeps them going.
-[x] You already know mine. Yours though I'm not so sure on. I think there's something specific you want to do with my power. Something beyond survival.

-[x] We both want what the other one of us can provide. We don't trust each other enough to cooperate... *yet*. So we'll trade. You help me find out what happens with Dewitching research, and whatever your goal is... so long as it isn't super-villainy, I'll help you with it, and I'll prove to you with actions, not words, that you don't need to rely on those shades forever to accomplish it. You want my power that badly, I'll designate you my insurance policy if you release a few right now. If the research kills me, and you can claim my soul, it's yours.
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Uhhhhh I'm definitely not okay with her having Sabrina's soul- she's scary with her current powers I don't trust her with Sabrina's at all. And also I kinda want to be a lot more hard line on "release your slaves" since er, it's slavery, and kinda really horrifying.
 
Well, it's potentially risky, but we could offer her a chance to examine the Clear Seed? That did appear to draw her interest, before Sabrina pulled it back. Show her without implying anything about her circumstances that Sabrina is making progress on Dewitching and see how she reacts.
 
Gadjo said:
Uhhhhh I'm definitely not okay with her having Sabrina's soul- she's scary with her current powers I don't trust her with Sabrina's at all. And also I kinda want to be a lot more hard line on "release your slaves" since er, it's slavery, and kinda really horrifying.
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It's a scam. I've explained that before. Something to string her along with. Her ability to actually do this is an unknown quantity, and our death is a bad end anyways. It's using yourself as bait.

Also having an insurance policy is just... I am very irritated that Sabrina hasn't started prepping insurance policies and deadmans switches by now. A journal of notes on griefbending for Homura to give Madoka if we die, someone who can claim our power if we suddenly get assassinated, etc. If there's a power copier that can copy our power that would be a very good idea.
 
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Conjured Blade said:
It's a scam. I've explained that before. Something to string her along with. Her ability to actually do this is an unknown quantity, and our death is a bad end anyways. It's using yourself as bait.

Also having an insurance policy is just... I am very irritated that Sabrina hasn't started prepping insurance policies and deadmans switches by now. A journal of notes on griefbending for Homura to give Madoka if we die, someone who can claim our power if we suddenly get assassinated, etc. If there's a power copier that can copy our power that would be a very good idea.
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Not in the hands of Rionna- she would clearly do no such good with it, and if Sabrina dies in that sense the power would honestly be better lost- like you said, our death is a bad end anyways, hence the lack of deadman's switches.
 
khfan21 said:
Nope, that's actually us and thus Sabrina misremembering the warning, if you look at every single time the sister sore spot has been brought up Rionna is never mentioned, only Bennouna.
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Firnagzen said:
"Let me finish, I might not have a chance to later," Oriko hisses between gritted teeth. "The... magical girl specialising in soul magic will be here in a week. It doesn't matter what you tell Miss Bennouna." Her lips compress together for a moment. "Do not... do not ask her about her sister."
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While I can see how that might be confusing, it's clearly about Rionna's sister, not Nadia's.
 
Gadjo said:
Not in the hands of Rionna- she would clearly do no such good with it, and if Sabrina dies in that sense the power would honestly be better lost- like you said, our death is a bad end anyways, hence the lack of deadman's switches.
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Unless she was forced to. If the incubators kill us and Riona gets our power, odds are she'll need to kill the incubators or die trying.

To be frank my throwing out the insurance policy offer is at least partially an attempt to meet you halfway.

You want a clear quantity of souls, is the issue with using our power and doing risky things to string her along as a bribe in general, or is it something else?
 
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At the present moment, my impression of Rionna is something along the lines of a Homura who ended up with soul ripper powers instead of a nice morally uncomplicated power like timestop. ( :V )

Consider what Homura's reaction would be if some rando she had no idea if she could trust told her that yeah, she'd help her with Madoka, as long as she disabled her shield so she never timestopped or time traveled again.

In that context, I think it's pretty clear that not budging on the demand that Rionna release her wraiths immediately is going to make any kind of resolution other then violence impossible.
 
Redshirt Army said:
At the present moment, my impression of Rionna is something along the lines of a Homura who ended up with soul ripper powers instead of a nice morally uncomplicated power like timestop. ( :V )

Consider what Homura's reaction would be if some rando she had no idea if she could trust told her that yeah, she'd help her with Madoka, as long as she disabled her shield so she never timestopped or time traveled again.

In that context, I think it's pretty clear that not budging on the demand that Rionna release her wraiths immediately is going to make any kind of resolution other then violence impossible.
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Frankly... we may need to be prepared for that. Non-violence is not a virtue on its own- sometimes, and oftentimes, considering what we've done in the past, continuing to allow an evil just because we don't wish to escalate to violence is pretty morally unconscionable.

I mean, what if she takes more souls? Do we tell the damned spirit we just wanted to give her a chance first?
 
Gadjo said:
The incubators aren't going to kill us and frankly if we can't neither can she. Also, even with our powers our current plan is "survive, slowly build meguca empire" not "kill the incubators"
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We're going to have to agree to disagree there. I think she at least has the potential to do that, and In the wake of Sabrina's death, I'd consider exterminating the incubators or coercing them into stopping what they do a win. Also did you catch my edits in the earlier post?
 
Redshirt Army said:
Well, one thing that comes to mind is that you might want to gather as many soul or grief manipulating powers as possible, and test for possible interactions or synergies between them... if you're trying to crack de-witching.

We don't know what the state of Rionna's sister really is, after all...
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... oh

oh that's why

Rionna's sister is a Witch.

What does every goddamn magical girl in the world want to do with a Witch?

You can't contain a Witch, not with Rionna's powers. That means you can't keep it safe, under lock and guard.

And the only way to prevent someone from killing a wandering Witch, with certainty, is to make sure that every goddamn magical girl in a hundred mile radius is dead or yours.

(... okay, you could kill the Witch, and then keep the Seed. But that involves "killing" what used to be your sister, in Rionna's case. I'm not sure she'd be willing to do that. And she may not know for sure that the death of a Witch doesn't hurt the Witch in some way - she has soul sight, but not Grief sight, and she can't see everything.)
 
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Aranfan said:
Except that letting her go, when we know about it and could (tried to) have stopped it, that makes us complicit.
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If we can get her to agree to working with us, like my current vote is pushing for, then it shouldn't be that difficult to get a "don't grab any more wraiths" condition in there.

And then, I mean, there's merc groups and we're made of cash. Just throw resources at buying guards for whatever Rionna's protections ( *cough*sister*cough* ) and work on her trust until she agrees to release the wraiths.

@Conjured Blade

The "soul insurance" plan is unworkable right now. Among other things, it almost certainly won't work, just like how Sayaka couldn't copy our power either. It's a distraction from the important things to convey to Rionna. She's a very no-nonsense person, so anything we say has to mean a lot, and that portion of your vote just... doesn't.
 
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Conjured Blade said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree there. I think she at least has the potential to do that, and In the wake of Sabrina's death, I'd consider exterminating the incubators or coercing them into stopping what they do a win. Also did you catch my edits in the earlier post?
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I see them but frankly I don't want to be so wishy washy on the "you steal men's souls!" debate. We need serious concessions there, because it's pretty high on the list of evil things you should never do.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
... oh

oh that's why

Rionna's sister is a Witch.

What does every goddamn magical girl in the world want to do with a Witch?

You can't contain a Witch, not with Rionna's powers. That means you can't keep it safe, under lock and guard.

And the only way to prevent someone from killing a wandering Witch, with certainty, is to make sure that every goddamn magical girl in a hundred mile radius is dead or yours.
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Yeah, I thought this too, but you can bring a witch back by simply rehatching it. If Riona's sister witched out, she could simply hold onto the grief seed for as long as she needed too. It's probably more complicated then that.
 
Muramasa said:
Yeah, I thought this too, but you can bring a witch back by simply rehatching it. If Riona's sister witched out, she could simply hold onto the grief seed for as long as she needed too. It's probably more complicated then that.
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Do we know that for sure?

No, more than that, does Rionna know that for sure?

If she killed her sister's Witch, she'd be gambling with her sister's life.

And that's putting aside the fact that she wished her sister back to life. Maybe she's an actual humanoid Witch or something, that screams Witch loudly enough that a magical girl would think it's just a weird Witch and try and kill her.

(So, sure, more complicated than that. But I bet you that's the base of it all.)
 
Gadjo said:
I see them but frankly I don't want to be so wishy washy on the "you steal men's souls!" debate. We need serious concessions there, because it's pretty high on the list of evil things you should never do.
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Alright then. I added a cease soultaking clause. If she remains our beneficiary for a long time, that means she isn't soultaking. Better?

[x] Everyone has a goal of some kind, something that keeps them going.
-[x] You already know mine. Yours though I'm not so sure on. I think there's something specific you want to do with my power. Something beyond survival.

-[x] We both want what the other one of us can provide. We don't trust each other enough to cooperate... *yet*. So we'll trade. You help me find out what happens with Dewitching research, and whatever your goal is... so long as it isn't super-villainy, I'll help you with it, and I'll prove to you with actions, not words, that you don't need to rely on those shades forever to accomplish it. You want my power that badly, I'll designate you my insurance policy if you cease soultaking for the duration of your status as my beneficiary and release a few. If the research, or some other unforseen threat kills me, and you can claim my soul, it's yours.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Well, that clears things up significantly.

This is great, but I think there's more to it:

Rionna Mag Aoidh does not strictly need to keep her whole city clear of magical girls and witches to just protect her sister, or even theoretically her sister's shade; if it's just her sister, she can hold several blocks and tolerate the existence of magicals elsewhere.

She's keeping the whole city clear for a reason, which leads me to suspect two possibilities:
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Nice, I would like to give an alternate interpretation.

Phigment said:
Not enough information for speculating about why she's angry about grief users.

It could be that she has some use for grief magic shades.

It could be that she just has some kind of trauma. Like, for instance, "my sister was a magical girl, and then a grief bender forced her to witch out, so now I have a consuming hatred of grief benders and hunt them down".
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That is similar to my current image of her.

@Kaizuki - I want to give you a thumbs up! We do need to solve the puzzle, and we do need to use the conversation to get anywhere like that. Our prior conversation let Rionna talk about things that don't answer our questions, so please continue your version of the interview component.

She would be in town just long enough to hunt a witch with us, and that is the most interesting venue past asking her your question? If she needs power, maybe proving our power and morality is the best way to become equals? The idea of consistent no-sale against a witch inside said witch's barrier might be our pearl of great price?

My ideal state of salvation is to annex her to our group. Just like every other ambiguous villain we meet. Not looking like we have that as a possibility, but it is the goal.

What about her crimes? As Sabrina, we seek to create justice, not primarily destroy sin. Correct? Apologists are wrong, she is evil when I hear her. Moralists are racing ahead of the gavel. Everyone else is evil too.

What should we do? Our test is to get Rionna to hug teh justice.

I further expect Rionna can't undertake soul healing without practice, but we will never know at the current rate. We could ask if she has ever tried, it might make her laugh?

Will put up a character assumption I like, and course of action revision, leading to a vote.
 
Alternative without the "insurance" bit.

[X] Everyone has a goal of some kind, something that keeps them going.
-[x] You already know mine. Yours I'm not so sure on. I think there's something specific you want to do with my power. Something beyond survival.

-[x] We both want what the other one of us can provide. We don't trust each other enough to cooperate... *yet*. So we'll trade. You help me find out what happens with Dewitching research, and whatever your goal is... so long as your goal itself isn't hurting people, if you keep just your current number of wraiths, I'll help you with it, and I'll prove to you with actions, not words, that you don't need to rely on those shades forever to accomplish it.
 
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