Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
Given how little we value T4 ingredients, being willing to burn large numbers of them for saving a few actions on research, I'm not very impressed by what we got from the KoTS. We really should have asked for a T5 ingredient.
I'm actually quite pleased with T/4 Griffon feathers. That is two tiers better than regular Griffon feathers which makes it that much more likely that any use of them in the Master Rune of Grimnir will cause a more powerful effect. I'm excited to see just how powerful said master rune can be.

Looking at that it just makes me even more upset that people voted to waste so much T4 materials with the destructive research. Seriously, what was the reasoning for that one? It literally would have taken just 6 actions to do the Dragon Ogre research. One such research I would understand since we would still have most of our T4 mats but 3 times just to save a few actions just seems extremely wasteful. Especially since if we had waited we could have probably just used some of the research points gained from the trade this turn to further research without destroying incredibly rare mats.

I mean... it seems to be perfectly understandable resource management to me. Mats that we don't use are not useful and might as well not exist. Trading one such resource for a resource that we are constantly in need of seems like a completely understandable motivation to me. Given the surplus of Dragon Ogres/Shaggoths relative to our hypothetical need for such mats and contrasting those needs for our desire to gain more AP, it seems like a justifiable expenditure.
 
The people voting for it massively , massively value one AP more than the T4 mats is the reasoning, and are probably counting on getting many other T4 mats for orders they want to go Max Bling on by the time they are intending to have to do them, in essence, it is a research-leaning perspective as opposed to a crafting-leaning perspective.

Personally, I would have preferred to have spent one less set of mats on it, but I'm hardly going to be broken up about it tbh.

"Especially since if we had waited"
The bit abut waiting is a hindsight based perceptive and I feel it should not be taken into consideration when evaluating the validity of previous votes; we had no way of knowing we would be able to trade for research AP at the time we spent those mats.

-------

Also, this is one of the more lighthearted quests imo, so like... chill a bit? Maximum optimisation is not really a thing a lot of us here are going for, or at least that is the vibe I'm getting. Funny thing I'hope will amuse you:

"My Superpower... is Hindsight."
"That doesn't seem very useful."
"Well, I know that now."
 
Last edited:
@Alratan
@Red Bovine

I'm getting a little tired of you guys complaining again and again because a vote won you don't like. Especially considering your unwillingness to look at the scale of which the quest works such that we'd never use most of those materials anyway.

Regardless, this is a quest. Votes are made by people with different opinions and characters and ideas. Sometimes people don't get what they want, sometimes they might even think a vote was stupid.

At the very least please wait until there is active proof that such an action has been naught but negative in its effects. Until then, it's really annoying and does nothing to change what has already been done. All you're gonna do, take it from me who has done it, is make yourself upset and annoy others, and nobody wins in the end and you subsequently feel worse.
 
Last edited:
@Alratan
@Red Bovine

I'm getting a little tired of you guys complaining again and again because a vote won you don't like. Especially considering your unwillingness to look at the scale of which the quest works such that we'd never use most of those materials anyway.

Regardless, this is a quest. Votes are made by people with different opinions and characters and ideas. Sometimes people don't get what they want, sometimes they might even think a vote was stupid.

At the very least please wait until there is active proof that such an action has been naught but negative in its effects. Until then, it's really annoying and does nothing to change what has already been done. All you're gonna do, take it from me who has done it, is make yourself upset and annoy others, and nobody wins in the end and you subsequently feel worse.

We've just seen that precedent used to justify burning even more probably very hard to replace ingredients in return for research actions.

More importantly, the core of my point is that if we value T4 materials so cheaply compared to actions, we should be consistent, and not make trades the other way around where we realise a much worse action:T4 material exchange rate. We're basically anti-arbitraging ourself in a single turn.

This is about what we do in future and measuring the results of our current vote that we're just seeing the results of, not what we did in the past in long dead and gone turns. Not every vote goes as perfectly as one hopes and we should be allowed to recognise that. In this case by not really personally seeing four T4 ingredients as being worth the actions and other ingredients it will take to make the KoTS' armour.

And proving that a vote is 100% negative is an impossible standard and would require looking back multiple turns and raising long dead disputes, which is certainly a bad idea.

I mean... it seems to be perfectly understandable resource management to me. Mats that we don't use are not useful and might as well not exist. Trading one such resource for a resource that we are constantly in need of seems like a completely understandable motivation to me. Given the surplus of Dragon Ogres/Shaggoths relative to our hypothetical need for such mats and contrasting those needs for our desire to gain more AP, it seems like a justifiable expenditure.

Option value is a real thing, so no, materials that we haven't used yet are potentially useful and do have value.

As people learned during the credit crunch, the most expensive money is the money you can't borrow for any price in the moment when you really need it. Running with minimal working capital/inventory seems like a great idea in the good times and then a really bad idea during times of stress.
 
Last edited:
The armor itself is the payment, IMO. The fact we get resources out of it is nice. But. The fact we have a friendly supercombatant much harder to kill, and thus better in a fight?

Yeah, that's worth legendary mats and time, just like the armor for our king. Like if you could buy purples in TWW.

...Which the Dawi can, actually, but for Oathgold. So eh. Point stands, stronger supercombatant is the big prize, materials, not as big a prize, nice side bennie nonetheless.
 
Honestly, I think a good portion of the people who voted just wanted to get it out of the way so they get to making the Armor for the King of the Skies.
 
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Option value is a real thing, so no, materials that we haven't used yet are potentially useful and do have value.

As people learned during the credit crunch, the most expensive money is the money you can't borrow for any price in the moment when you really need it. Running with minimal working capital/inventory seems like a great idea in the good times and then a really bad idea during times of stress.
We are using the mats though, and so it becomes a question of value between short-term tangible benefits vs. long-term hypothetical benefits. I'm not saying that they won't have value in the future if we hold on to them, but I am saying that mats we never use don't realize any of that potential value and thus aren't a benefit. And so the consideration becomes how many of these mats will we use in the future and how many can be spared at the moment, and that is a value judgment that will differ from person to person. And, quite frankly, I don't see us using a lot of Dragon Orge/Shaggoth's for materials in the distant future.

As for the minimal inventory analogy, I don't really see that as a concern. We seem to be gathering more materials than what we spend through events and various shopping activities and so as the quest progress I expect that our overall stock will be increasing at a faster rate than we use it.
 
I mean... it seems to be perfectly understandable resource management to me. Mats that we don't use are not useful and might as well not exist. Trading one such resource for a resource that we are constantly in need of seems like a completely understandable motivation to me. Given the surplus of Dragon Ogres/Shaggoths relative to our hypothetical need for such mats and contrasting those needs for our desire to gain more AP, it seems like a justifiable expenditure.
My issue is that the AP really wasn't that big an issue since again just taking it once I didn't see any issue with since as mentioned we had a lot of them. Even 2 times while I would have been wary about it I still wouldn't have had nearly as much issue with it. It was the action getting taken 3 times and destroying most of the corpses that I viewed as extremely wasteful since T4 as the point where it's hard to replace. I mean with 2 destructive actions we would have just needed two actions to finish the research and we would have still had half the extremely rare mats.

There is also the issue of creating a precedent where we players become too casual with destroying high mats. Hence me asking 'Okay, what was the reasoning for that decision? I literally don't know what the reasoning was for that and rather than going through several pages to find it am just hoping that someone who already knew can explain it'.

@Alratan
@Red Bovine

I'm getting a little tired of you guys complaining again and again because a vote won you don't like. Especially considering your unwillingness to look at the scale of which the quest works such that we'd never use most of those materials anyway.

Regardless, this is a quest. Votes are made by people with different opinions and characters and ideas. Sometimes people don't get what they want, sometimes they might even think a vote was stupid.

At the very least please wait until there is active proof that such an action has been naught but negative in its effects. Until then, it's really annoying and does nothing to change what has already been done. All you're gonna do, take it from me who has done it, is make yourself upset and annoy others, and nobody wins in the end and you subsequently feel worse.
Um, I was literally asking why people went with a decision since it seemed counter productive to use up high mats too casually long term. I didn't even notice that the action was taking it 3 times instead of one until much later. One I would have gotten and so didn't really pay much attention to the vote. It was only later that I figured out that the action wasn't and where I started wondering why people spent that many actions. I asked since it seemed a lot quicker than trying to look over multiple pages of discussion.

Also I like to think that I was less complaining and more challenging other players decisions on something. Though I do apologize if it sounded like I was overly complaining. I don't mean to be offensive, just thought that since one of the major facets of quests is literally debating actions that it would only be natural for players to disagree on actions and worry about how it may affect future actions. Also just because people disagree on some things doesn't mean that they don't respect others people opinions. It just means that they disagree on some things which is unavoidable since it's hard to get people to agree on a lot of things and impossible to get everyone to agree about everything all the time.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, the lesson here should be to just ask for the t5 mat next time instead of assuming it would be one.
I never assumed it would be higher than T4
My issue is that the AP really wasn't that big an issue since again just taking it once I didn't see any issue with since as mentioned we had a lot of them. Even 2 times while I would have been wary about it I still wouldn't have had nearly as much issue with it. It was the action getting taken 3 times and destroying most of the corpses that I viewed as extremely wasteful since T4 as the point where it's hard to replace. I mean with 2 destructive actions we would have just needed two actions to finish the research and we would have still had half the extremely rare mats.

There is also the issue of creating a precedent where we players become too casual with destroying high mats. Hence me asking 'Okay, what was the reasoning for that decision? I literally don't know what the reasoning was for that and rather than going through several pages to find it am just hoping that someone who already knew can explain it'.


Um, I was literally asking why people went with a decision since it seemed counter productive to use up high mats too casually long term. I didn't even notice that the action was taking it 3 times instead of one until much later. One I would have gotten and so didn't really pay much attention to the vote. It was only later that I figured out that the action wasn't and where I started wondering why people spent that many actions. I asked since it seemed a lot quicker than trying to look over multiple pages of discussion.

Also I like to think that I was less complaining and more challenging other players decisions on something. Though I do apologize if it sounded like I was overly complaining. I don't mean to be offensive, just thought that since one of the major facets of quests is literally debating actions that it would only be natural for players to disagree on actions and worry about how it may affect future actions. Also just because people disagree on some things doesn't mean that they don't respect others people opinions. It just means that they disagree on some things which is unavoidable since it's hard to get people to agree on a lot of things and impossible to get everyone to agree about everything all the time.
the thing is we already brought up those reasons back during the vote that resulted in it.

As this is not the first time you've brought it up since the vote was closed so it comes off as complaining. That said, I admit I've phrased things the same way in the past in similar circumstances when I only wanted clarification, so I apologize for not treating your question with more cordiality as my own were then. The golden rule is worth following.
 
Last edited:
The armor itself is the payment, IMO. The fact we get resources out of it is nice. But. The fact we have a friendly supercombatant much harder to kill, and thus better in a fight?

Yeah, that's worth legendary mats and time, just like the armor for our king. Like if you could buy purples in TWW.

...Which the Dawi can, actually, but for Oathgold. So eh. Point stands, stronger supercombatant is the big prize, materials, not as big a prize, nice side bennie nonetheless.
Wait so the reason for ldestroying several T4 mats was for the Sky Kings armor? That seems a bit excessive for that. We don't know what we are even getting from the bodies or if we are even going to use any of the mats for the armor itself. T4 Dragon Ogre corpses meanwhile is on the level of rarity of an Elder Dragon and even rarer than Adamant, which is not hyperbole since we can consistently make the stuff.

Not to mention that it would have taken 6 actions normally and even doing just 1-2 destructive actions would not have eaten up most of our reserves while significantly speeding it up. Also this isn't TWW so imagine that for this quest it is likely a lot harder to gain mats on that level.
We are using the mats though, and so it becomes a question of value between short-term tangible benefits vs. long-term hypothetical benefits. I'm not saying that they won't have value in the future if we hold on to them, but I am saying that mats we never use don't realize any of that potential value and thus aren't a benefit. And so the consideration becomes how many of these mats will we use in the future and how many can be spared at the moment, and that is a value judgment that will differ from person to person. And, quite frankly, I don't see us using a lot of Dragon Orge/Shaggoth's for materials in the distant future.

As for the minimal inventory analogy, I don't really see that as a concern. We seem to be gathering more materials than what we spend through events and various shopping activities and so as the quest progress I expect that our overall stock will be increasing at a faster rate than we use it.
I think the issue is that we don't know much about the corpses which could have affected our decisions. Example being that the corpses may not have that many parts that are actually high quality. As in while an Elder Dragons hide is pretty high tier a Dragon Ogres may not be. That or much less of the body itself may be high tier. Kind of like how Kholek's body appears to have some T5 materials while the rest of his body is 'just' T4.

While yes we would still have some it felt like jumping the gun in voting to use up that many high tier mats in destructive research since we don't have a full idea of the corpses. Especially since it feels like if we were going to use up that many we might as well have given them over to Dwarfs to get more use out of them, as in used by other Runesmiths to create crafts, instead of outright destroying something that compares to an Elder Dragon in rarity.
 
Last edited:
@soulcake, I apologize if you did in fact see my post, but could you clarify whether it's supposed to "impure Gromril" or "impure pure Gromril"? It's just been nagging at me, the former doesn't make sense in context to me. Very sorry for the bother.

"Even then we're left with a lot of impure Gromril, as odd as it sounds saying it
This doesn't sound odd actually, impure gromril isn't that noteworthy. Did you mean:
"Even then we're left with a lot of impure pure Gromril, as odd as it sounds saying it
That would be quite odd to say.
 
People are asking for T5 materials and are constantly speculating about it. Up until now we have only seen 2 of those on the entire quest. The heart of the Greedy Troll, a progenitor of an entire race, and the heart of Kolek, a Shoggoth that has been alive since before the Old Ones entered the picture.

The only possible equal is the heart of the Griffon, something that was given to Grimmir itself and that will likely be consumed whenever KotS dies and the flock needs a new leader, by the new leader itself.

I think it is kinda arrogant to assume that @soulcake will drop you a tier 5 mat just because you want one. I mean let us be honest, one was made because of exploding crits on charGen and the other took a massive amount of effort that decimated the entire North.

Hell even on the info page it says that tier 5 mats are one of the rarest things in the quest, so we are better off ignoring that tier until the next time the dice gods love/hate us enough to get another and focus on using and preserving tier 4 mats, because I suspect that that will be the highest tier we will get of mats for a long time.

Edit: Hell the rest of Kolek's body is tier 4, why do people think that the griffon's body parts must be a better, rarer tier?
 
@soulcake, I apologize if you did in fact see my post, but could you clarify whether it's supposed to "impure Gromril" or "impure pure Gromril"? It's just been nagging at me, the former doesn't make sense in context to me. Very sorry for the bother.
The odd part is that they're thinking of the Gromril as the impure part to begin with. Its weird mental shudder stop and restart when you've spent the vast centuries of your life thinking Gromril and Pure Gromril were the be-all-end-all of metal and then finding a massive ingot of that stuff to be the failed part of a bach.
 
Last edited:
@Red Bovine as the dude who made the plan that ended up winning and asking for such things here's my basic reasoning raised back when the vote happened, more or less.

We have 15 Shaggoth corpses and 45 Dragon Ogre. This is a staggering quantity of Dragon Ogre material. If you treat a corpse as one unit, we have by units, primarily Dragon Ogre stuff excepting the sheer amount of Dragon Hide we have. This is however not a fully accurate measurement for them because as seen with other creatures we can use their organs and pieces. It is a staggering quantity to me because each one is multiple tens of dwarfs big or bigger, being as big as dragons or fortresses for the largest ones.

Because it is a staggering quantity and they are so huge, its going to take a really bloody long time to get through them. I personally would like the research done promptly to try and set up including parts into the King's Armor and possibly a Healing Banner (Not necessarily one with the Greedy Heart) or some Banner commemorating our triumph over Chaos in future turns.

In terms of the favor I had a couple of reasons. Grimnir Runes are useful for Weapons even aside from the King's Armor, which might benefit from the Master Rune of Grimnir so having a stock of good Griffon Feathers is nice. And I came at it from that direction because I was of the opinion that the favor was already basically paid with help against Kholek, I needed something useful but fundamentally perfunctory, and I considered the favor itself something that caused the thread to get into circular arguments that are a pain in the ass so as @Mannan pointed out I wanted it out of the way.

Even after three sets of expenditure, required to get it done this turn so we can see if its useful for the King's armor or not, we're going to be left with 6 Dragon Ogre Shaggoths and 27 Dragon Ogre corpses. This is more than I think we can reasonably use in the next several centuries, and as @Thor's Twin lays out I also think that materials that are not being used are essentially non-existent because of their irrelevance. Once we know what we get out of the research project, we have a more limited pool than we might have otherwise, but frankly I think 6 Shaggoth Corpses and 27 Dragon Ogres is still more than we'll use in centuries.

And if we need more we can just order more T3 mats, or T4 mats and it won't be a problem except of time.
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't be too surprised to see dragon ogre corpses just get handed to us occasionally, the way griffin brains were for a while, due to dwarves holding a grudge against the species for their role in the attack on the north. Doubly so if the ogres hold their own grudge against the dwarves for Sunchomper's death.

As an aside, does anyone else think it's kind of absurd how much research we've gotten done these past few turns due to Yorri prods, corpse crushing, brotherhood trades, etc?
 
I wouldn't be too surprised to see dragon ogre corpses just get handed to us occasionally, the way griffin brains were for a while, due to dwarves holding a grudge against the species for their role in the attack on the north. Doubly so if the ogres hold their own grudge against the dwarves for Sunchomper's death.

As an aside, does anyone else think it's kind of absurd how much research we've gotten done these past few turns due to Yorri prods, corpse crushing, brotherhood trades, etc?
I really love it but yes, compared to the quest so far its like *mindblowing*.
 
I'm enjoying the high intensity we are doing now, with the expectation that it will drop down massively in the next turn or two.

I am curious about voidstone btw, though I admit to having little interest in the light runes... well, holograms are pretty cool, I suppose.
 
I'm enjoying the high intensity we are doing now, with the expectation that it will drop down massively in the next turn or two.

I am curious about voidstone btw, though I admit to having little interest in the light runes... well, holograms are pretty cool, I suppose.
Nnn, kinda same boat about light with you there myself. Its going to be lasers and semaphore and stuff and that is Pretty Cool and I have no issue going along with a more general desire for it, which is pretty much what I attempted to do with my plan.
 
Honestly with all the research we've gotten down these last few turns next turn I think it's time for us to get another Apprentice. It's been a while now and I want to see what possible students we can get.
 
Hmm. Got to thinking about the Ancestors we have met, I wonder if we'll get to see Thungni around at the Conclave or if he'll be too busy boarded up in his workshop.
 
Hello you beautiful, BEAUTIFUL Regeneration and Fortitude runes. Say hello to our good friends Adamant and Greedy Heart.

You are going to become such good friends...
 
Idea, seeing as one of the things mentioned in the waking research tree is the possibility of non humanoid gronti how would people feel about creating magic deer gronti crafted from Kholek Suneaters bones? People have talked about the idea of getting some powerful beasts to pull a sled to go along with it to further work on the Santa image. It would be both awesome and hilarious to us his bones to create flying magic Reindeer to go with a battle sled that we can both ride around during battles while also delivering presents to the beardlings and plaitlings.

Not that serious about the idea but seems like a fun thing to think about.
 
Idea, seeing as one of the things mentioned in the waking research tree is the possibility of non humanoid gronti how would people feel about creating magic deer gronti crafted from Kholek Suneaters bones? People have talked about the idea of getting some powerful beasts to pull a sled to go along with it to further work on the Santa image. It would be both awesome and hilarious to us his bones to create flying magic Reindeer to go with a battle sled that we can both ride around during battles while also delivering presents to the beardlings and plaitlings.

Not that serious about the idea but seems like a fun thing to think about.
Kinda morbid but an interesting exercise of Waking runes.

I generally like the idea of making Gronti deer.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top