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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Rune of Spellbreaking (Makes user almost invulnerable to magical attacks)
Rune of Might (Increases strength of wielder)
Rune of Speed (Makes wielder faster and more agile)
Rune of Guarding (Defends the bearer of the banner)

The most immediate combo I can think of using this list is Spellbreaking and Guarding, to expand the concept of Unyielding to include not yielding to magical threats either.

The Rune of Spellbreaking effects spells, not the wearer, and the Rune of Guarding effects the banner so that it defends its carrier. I agree with Rune of Speed and Might (although note that Speed seems more about mental than physical effects in canon fluff).

Honestly just prefer we not try too hard trying to combo everything. We don't really need to since even things without combos can reach pretty high tier. The main issue I have with combo testing is that they encourage taking up a lot of actions. Example being that I have seen people talking about spending most of a turn doing nothing but combo testing on items. The problem with that line of thinking is that if we used combo testing for everything it would significantly slow us down. I mean we literally had people trying to push to make the Sky Kings armor into a combo during one of the worst daemon incursions in history despite many people pointing out how much of a bad idea that was if they wanted to get the armor on him as soon as possible which was validated as a worry when he left a a few turns into it.

Or to put it another way imagine if people tried that with all of Snorri's equipment slots. Our gear slots are 2 weapons, 2 talismans or a talisman and 1 personal banner and 1 armor. If people tried to min max all of Snorri's gear we could end with a situation where we literally spend 5 turns doing nothing but testing combos for our gear set. And that's just for Snorri himself and not taking into account failing to find a combo that works during turns. To put things into perspective the quest has been going on for 21 turns.

So yeah, rather we not excessively focus on trying to combo everything.

For 'regular' requests I completely agree. For requests using very hard to replace ingredients, particularly T5 ones, I think it's worth investing the time.
 
Okay, so we want a combo with this armor rune.

One of the things that we've noticed about the failed attempts to combo with the Master Rune of Gromril, is that the Gromril rune is entirely focused on affecting the armor itself, and our attempts have always included a rune that strays from that. This is why our next attempt is slated to be Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Steel, Rune of Iron; other themes aside, they're all about the armor itself.

The Master Rune of Unyielding is different; it explicitly primarily affects the wearer. To combo it, I believe our best bet is to find other runes that affect the wearer.

After weeding out dwarf-specific runes, here's a shortlist runes I was able to find that explicitly affect the user/wearer/bearer instead of just the item:

Rune of Spellbreaking (Makes user almost invulnerable to magical attacks)
Rune of Might (Increases strength of wielder)
Rune of Speed (Makes wielder faster and more agile)
Rune of Guarding (Defends the bearer of the banner)

The most immediate combo I can think of using this list is Spellbreaking and Guarding, to expand the concept of Unyielding to include not yielding to magical threats either.

Anyone have other ideas? Runes I missed?

Speed seems a little non-intuitive as combo fodder to me, seeing as unyielding's all about rendering yourself immovable or at least resisting outside forces. Not sure that naturally goes together with improved agility.

I'd be interested in trying something involving the rune of battle, personally, to go for a sort of unbreakable vanguard thing. Maybe unyielding / might / battle?

The valiant and stalwart runes sound like cool additions too just going by their names, as does the rune of stoicism, but don't ask me to explain what those runes actually do lol
 
If I was thinking of a combo, I'd go Unyielding, Grimnir, Determination. Basically call upon "May the unyielding determination of Grimnir be bound to this armor!"
 
I'd be interested in trying something involving the rune of battle, personally, to go for a sort of unbreakable vanguard thing. Maybe unyielding / might / battle?
The danger of adding banner runes is that most of them are aura effects, and if the translation over to an armor rune doesn't drop the aura aspect, which has happened before, the chances of a combo go down.

The Rune of Spellbreaking effects spells, not the wearer, and the Rune of Guarding effects the banner so that it defends its carrier.
I think it's a reasonable guess that when translated over to an Armor Rune, the Rune of Guarding would at worst enhance and focus the armour's other defensive efforts on the wearer, and at best provide it's own synergistic vector of protection for the wearer, depending on how precisely the Banner version works.

As for the Rune of Spellbreaking, I'm pretty sure it takes the form of a passive anti-spell-specialized defensive ward (which would be affecting the wearer) as opposed to a source of active counterspells (which would not), but if I'm wrong about that, we can always use the Rune of Warding instead.
 
If we are thinking about what combo's with the Master Rune of Unyielding, then my pitch would be Master Rune of Unyielding, Rune of Fortitude, and Rune of Stone to symbolize the Mountain and Dwarven nature.
 
The danger of adding banner runes is that most of them are aura effects, and if the translation over to an armor rune doesn't drop the aura aspect, which has happened before, the chances of a combo go down.

I'm not sure I share your analysis of what makes a combo more or less likely, but regardless, could you remind me of when the aura transfer thing happened previously, pls? I don't remember it and the creations tab is doing nothing to jog my memory.
 
I'm not sure I share your analysis of what makes a combo more or less likely, but regardless, could you remind me of when the aura transfer thing happened previously, pls? I don't remember it and the creations tab is doing nothing to jog my memory.
These are the armor runes attempted that failed to combo:
Snorri's. [Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Fortitude, Rune of Impact.]
Otrek's. [Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Sanctuary]
Gloin's. [Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Preservation, Rune of Valaya]

And here is the description of the effects of the last two:
In Otrek's case the variant of the Rune of Sanctuary you'll be using will be able to impart some lesser protection to his Huskarls, which will be useful during the times he'll no doubt be leading a charge during battle. Gloin's armour meanwhile is more individually directed, the Rune of Valaya keeping him safe and wardred from foul magic.
 
Honestly just prefer we not try too hard trying to combo everything. We don't really need to since even things without combos can reach pretty high tier. The main issue I have with combo testing is that they encourage taking up a lot of actions. Example being that I have seen people talking about spending most of a turn doing nothing but combo testing on items. The problem with that line of thinking is that if we used combo testing for everything it would significantly slow us down. I mean we literally had people trying to push to make the Sky Kings armor into a combo during one of the worst daemon incursions in history despite many people pointing out how much of a bad idea that was if they wanted to get the armor on him as soon as possible which was validated as a worry when he left a a few turns into it.

Or to put it another way imagine if people tried that with all of Snorri's equipment slots. Our gear slots are 2 weapons, 2 talismans or a talisman and 1 personal banner and 1 armor. If people tried to min max all of Snorri's gear we could end with a situation where we literally spend 5 turns doing nothing but testing combos for our gear set. And that's just for Snorri himself and not taking into account failing to find a combo that works during turns. To put things into perspective the quest has been going on for 21 turns.

So yeah, rather we not excessively focus on trying to combo everything. So when the time comes to make Snorri's gear rather we not bother with combo tests and just pick the runes we think would be best and if they combo that would be a good bonus.
I feel like we're reading the bit I quoted differently.
I read
Does anyone else want to eventually use the Master Rune of Unyielding in order to come up with an armor combo later on for us?
as "Wouldn't it be awesome for our endgame war gear to have in a combo." and you are reading it as "We should invest actions in order to feel out what combos there are in order to prepare for when we make our end game war gear."
Thing is, I'm not a planner and I don't care to get into that discussion.
 
VOTE LOCKED
Update might take a bit cuz of all the char gen I gotta do. :^)​
Adhoc vote count started by soulcake on May 18, 2020 at 2:12 PM, finished with 226 posts and 81 votes.

  • [X] Plan Void and Adamant Research
    - [X] Sell: Total 29+4 Base = 33
    -- [X] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
    -- [X] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
    -- [X] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
    -- [X] 3 Voidstone = 9 points
    -- [X] 1 Adamant = 4 points
    - [X] Buy: Total 32
    -- [X] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
    -- [X] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
    -- [X] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
    -- [X] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
    -- [X] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
    -- [X] 3 progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 6 points
    -- [X] 3 Progress in The Secrets of Light, Cost: 6 points
    [X] Plan Research Buddies v.2!
    -[X] Sell: Total 32 + 4 Base = 36
    --[X] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
    --[X] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
    --[X] First Priority in Gromril Exports = 2 Points
    --[X] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
    --[X] 2 Voidstone = 6 points
    --[X] 2 Adamant = 8 Points
    -[X] Buy: Total 36
    --[X] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
    --[X] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
    --[X] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
    --[X] 3 Progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 6 points
    --[X] 3 Progress in The Secrets of Light Research, Cost 6 points
    --[X] 5 Progress in The Movement of Things Research, Cost 10 points
    --[X] 1 Progress in The Rune Metal, Cost 2 points
    [X] Plan just the runes, please
    -[X] Sell 18 + 4 base = 22 points
    --[X] Simple smelter request, 6 points
    --[X] Smelter blueprints, 6 points
    --[X] Master rune of purification, 4 points
    --[X] Gromril priority, 2 points
    -[X] Buy 22 points
    --[X] Master rune of inferno, 4 points
    --[X] Master rune of blizzards, 4 points
    --[X] Master rune of the tireless, 4 points
    --[X] Master rune of the unyielding, 6 points
    --[X] Strollaz' rune, 2 points
    --[X] Research help: voidstones, 1 action (2 points)
    [X] Plan void and light
    -[X] Sell 28 + 4 base = 32 points
    --[X] Simple smelter request, 6 points
    --[X] Smelter blueprints, 6 points
    --[X] Master rune of purification, 4 points
    --[X] Gromril priority, 2 points
    --[X] Trade 1 adamant bar, 4 points
    --[X] Trade 2 voidstones, 6 points
    -[X] Buy 32 points
    --[X] Master rune of inferno, 4 points
    --[X] Master rune of blizzards, 4 points
    --[X] Master rune of the tireless, 4 points
    --[X] Master rune of the unyielding, 6 points
    --[X] Strollaz' rune, 2 points
    --[X] Research help: voidstones, 3 actions (6 points)
    --[X] Research help: secrets of light, 3 actions (6 points)
    [X] Plan Gift Giving but with Adamant and Research
    - [X] Sell: Total 35
    -- [X] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
    -- [X] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
    -- [X] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
    -- [X] 3 Adamant = 12 points
    -- [X] 1 Voidstone = 3 points.
    - [X] Buy: Total 34
    -- [X] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
    -- [X] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
    -- [X] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
    -- [X] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
    -- [X] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
    -- [X] 3 progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 6 points
    -- [X] 3 Progress in The Secrets of Light, Cost: 6 points
    -- [X] 1 Progress in The Movement of Things pt 2, Cost: 2 points
    [X] Plan Voidstones for Voidstone, Adamant for Adamant
    -[X] Sell: Total 26 + 4 Base = 30
    --[X] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
    --[X] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
    --[X] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
    --[X] 2 Voidstone = 6 points
    --[X] 1 Adamant = 4 Points
    -[X] Buy: Total 30
    --[X] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
    --[X] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
    --[X] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
    --[X] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
    --[X] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
    --[X] 3 Progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 6 points
    --[X] 2 Progress in The Rune Metal, Cost 4 points
    [X] Plan: Gift Giver
    - [X] Sell:
    -- [X] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
    - [X] Buy:
    -- [X] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
    [X] Plan Rush Rune Metal v0.2
    -[X] Sell: Total 34 + 4 Base = 38
    --[X] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
    --[X] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
    --[X] First Priority in Gromril Exports = 2 Points
    --[X] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
    --[X] 3 Adamant = 12 Points
    -[X] Buy: Total 38
    --[X] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
    --[X] Strollaz' rune, 2 points
    --[X] 3 Progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 6 points
    --[X] 12 Progress in The Rune Metal, Cost 24 points
    [X] Plan Voidstones for Voidstone
    -[X] Sell: Total 22 + 4 Base = 26
    --[X] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
    --[X] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
    --[X] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
    --[X] 2 Voidstone = 6 points
    -[X] Buy: Total 26
    --[X] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
    --[X] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
    --[X] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
    --[X] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
    --[X] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
    --[X] 3 Progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 6 points
 
a lot of character generation huh i'm guessing all the new runelords we will be meeting.
what is the requirement for our apprentices to pass their yourneyman trials again?
 
a lot of character generation huh i'm guessing all the new runelords we will be meeting.
what is the requirement for our apprentices to pass their yourneyman trials again?
They come back to us with a creation that demonstrates their growth and current skill which shows they're ready to be full fledged Rune smiths.
Amusingly Snerra's banner might have done it if she where journeying then.
 
They come back to us with a creation that demonstrates their growth and current skill which shows they're ready to be full fledged Rune smiths.
Amusingly Snerra's banner might have done it if she where journeying then.
I'd guess that having an Epic Deed or two under their belts might be enough. Dolgi's Epic Deed certainly impresses.

The fact that they've been invited to this Grand Conclave seems like it's proof that they're all getting close.
 
I think it's a reasonable guess that when translated over to an Armor Rune, the Rune of Guarding would at worst enhance and focus the armour's other defensive efforts on the wearer, and at best provide it's own synergistic vector of protection for the wearer, depending on how precisely the Banner version works.

As for the Rune of Spellbreaking, I'm pretty sure it takes the form of a passive anti-spell-specialized defensive ward (which would be affecting the wearer) as opposed to a source of active counterspells (which would not), but if I'm wrong about that, we can always use the Rune of Warding instead.

Spellbreaking Runes are generally active effects controlled by a runesmith to direct them at a specific spell. That's why a runesmith can break a spell targeting someone or something completely different.

The Rune of Valaya is what you're more looking for here, and it also has very good potential synergies with healing and other similar effects. I think it fits well with Valaya in her martial aspect as the defender of the hold. Her Rune includes a symbolic representation of a shield, as I understand it, so a combo with say, the Master Rune of Unyielding, Rune of Valaya, and perhaps the Rune of Preservation on an adamant shield might work. Preservation and Unyielding are both in theme for Valaya, in both her aspect. Brewing is a form of preservation, after all.
 
I'd guess that having an Epic Deed or two under their belts might be enough. Dolgi's Epic Deed certainly impresses.

The fact that they've been invited to this Grand Conclave seems like it's proof that they're all getting close.
Dolgi's deed does impress, and its a clue that he could probably graduate if he tried. However he hasn't made his journeyman piece.

Technically you could be publishing peer reviewed research but you don't get your degree if you don't go to the exams.
It's not like Dwarves would ever accept the concept of an honorary degree.
 
Actually; thinking about it, we know from Snorri's research infrastructure that large stationary wards can have greater effects than smaller, mobile ones.

Given this, although I'm still pretty committed to a super-gronti, I'm now interested in seeing if we can make a hold/building scale Master Rune of Unyielding with the Heart. We'd have to adapt the Rune; and probably want to stockpile enough adamant to make something like a statue, pillar or maybe large engraved plates we could put in a prominent location, but giving all the dwarves if Kraka Drakk even scaled down benefits of the Master Rune would be pretty amazing.
 
The Rune of Valaya is what you're more looking for here, and it also has very good potential synergies with healing and other similar effects. I think it fits well with Valaya in her martial aspect as the defender of the hold.
If we were doing Snorri's armor I'd agree.

Yet my understanding is that we're avoiding the non-master ancestor runes for the griffon armor.

If ancestor runes are on the table, I'd pick Grimnir and Valaya and call it done.
 
Dolgi's deed does impress, and its a clue that he could probably graduate if he tried. However he hasn't made his journeyman piece.

Technically you could be publishing peer reviewed research but you don't get your degree if you don't go to the exams.
It's not like Dwarves would ever accept the concept of an honorary degree.
I find it hilarious that all three of Snorri's apprentices would have been declared full rune smiths if what they were doing during their apprenticeship was what they were doing now.
 
Actually; thinking about it, we know from Snorri's research infrastructure that large stationary wards can have greater effects than smaller, mobile ones.

Given this, although I'm still pretty committed to a super-gronti, I'm now interested in seeing if we can make a hold/building scale Master Rune of Unyielding with the Heart. We'd have to adapt the Rune; and probably want to stockpile enough adamant to make something like a statue, pillar or maybe large engraved plates we could put in a prominent location, but giving all the dwarves if Kraka Drakk even scaled down benefits of the Master Rune would be pretty amazing.
Well we dont know the reagent yet. For all we know it could be Troll. If that's the case it would be a very tempting Banner or stationary Rune for the Heart.
 
Dolgi's deed does impress, and its a clue that he could probably graduate if he tried. However he hasn't made his journeyman piece.

Technically you could be publishing peer reviewed research but you don't get your degree if you don't go to the exams.
It's not like Dwarves would ever accept the concept of an honorary degree.

I mean, it even says so in the name, it's a journey to become a master runesmith, which implies that going straight for a suitable master-piece is rather missing the point.

The fact that Dolgi (all three, really) have been invited to the Conclave is indicative of how close they are to "graduating" quality-wise, they just need to decide for themselves that they are ready for it.
 
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I find it hilarious that all three of Snorri's apprentices would have been declared full rune smiths if what they were doing during their apprenticeship was what they were doing now.
No? Dolgi's epic deed that he did during his journeydwarfship was epic in scale and quantity not quality. Its a sign that he's skilled and takes after his master, but if you want a lot of things you ask an engineer, if you want art you ask a Rune Smith.

Fyolla hasn't done anything I'm aware of that would justify that claim at all.

Snerra probably/possibly, but Horium is correct to point out its a journey. This is an important point for her to develop and skipping it out entirely might adversely impact her development.
 
here is an idea for Snorri's new armor
1) made of adamant , I doubt we are going to need something like the master Rune of gromril as anything strong enough to go through would likely invalidate the rune not to mention we are starting to push against the rule of pride with how often we have used it
2)for the combo I am thinking Master Rune of Unyielding , Rune of Speed and Rune of Might
the idea being :-
- the Master Rune of Unyielding (buffs constitution , gives damage resistance and regeneration ) if possible use greedy troll heart to boost the regeneration even further
- the Rune of Speed (buffs dexterity , reaction time and likely make us fast enough to dodge things
- the Rune of Might (buffs strength , makes us super strong and hit like a giant )

the idea behind this armor is to make Snorri effectively unkillable and make sure he can last until the time of "modern" warhamer as there were quite a few close calls during both the fight with the greedy troll and Suneater , odds are there will be many more like it in the future so best get ready for it as soon as we can
 
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Given how little we value T4 ingredients, being willing to burn large numbers of them for saving a few actions on research, I'm not very impressed by what we got from the KoTS. We really should have asked for a T5 ingredient.

here is an idea for Snorri's new armor
1) made of adamant , I doubt we are going to need something like the master Rune of gromril as anything strong enough to go through would likely invalidate the rune not to mention we are starting to push against the rule of pride with how often we have used it
2)for the combo I am thinking Master Rune of Unyielding , Rune of Speed and Rune of Might
the idea being :-
- the Master Rune of Unyielding (buffs constitution , gives damage resistance and regeneration ) if possible use greedy troll heart to boost the regeneration even further
- the Rune of Speed (buffs dexterity , reaction time and likely make us fast enough to dodge things
- the Rune of Might (buffs strength , makes us super strong and hit like a giant )

the idea behind this armor is to make Snorri effectively unkillable and make sure he can last until the time of "modern" warhamer as there were quite a few close calls during both the fight with the greedy troll and Suneater , odds are there will be many more like it in the future so best get ready for it as soon as we can

I'd like to see where we go with the Mind Of Things research before we make our own armour, in case we get the opportunity to prototype runic power armour.
 
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Well, it looks like we know how many feathers we got and their quality. Pretty nice feathers!
Looking at that it just makes me even more upset that people voted to waste so much T4 materials with the destructive research. Seriously, what was the reasoning for that one? It literally would have taken just 6 actions to do the Dragon Ogre research. One such research I would understand since we would still have most of our T4 mats but 3 times just to save a few actions just seems extremely wasteful. Especially since if we had waited we could have probably just used some of the research points gained from the trade this turn to further research without destroying incredibly rare mats.
 
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